Sandor Clegane 4

[FacelessGirl]

That's the thing you barely read about Sandor Clegane since he is a minor character. Much more intriguing a character than pages of Tyrion's angst and whoring. And this is coming from one of his fans. ^_^

[Alexia]

The thing is that Tyrion is more interesting to read than Clegane aka Mr Drunk and no personality . ^_^

No personality! :shocked:

Sandor Clegane has lots of personality. You really see the cracks in his facade (grr... I'm a BIG BAD MEAN MAN and you should be SCARED of me!!!) with Sansa and Arya. He takes care of Arya and treats her like a daughter (or squire, depending on who you ask), he develops a totally inappropriate crush on Sansa and asks her to come with him in a terrifying way before he leaves, and then he completely breaks down when he hears of Sansa's marriage. He has loads of depth and is a beautifully written character. A stone cold killer with a protection fetish who falls in love/lust with a 12-year old, what's not to like? :lol:

I like reading Tyrion chapters, but Sandor rocks it up for personality because he has a facade going on, a public persona he's built up and the way he wants people to perceive him, and then it starts cracking and you see glimpses of a seriously depressed, hurting, suicidal person underneath and you realize that maybe he's just full of shit and he doesn't believe all that crap he's been saying.

"This thing about your mother." what was he going to say? How did he plan to finish that sentence? "I could keep you safe. No one would ever hurt you again, or I'd kill them." "They're all meat, and I'm the butcher."

As opposed to Tyrion. "Perhaps she does not even see ugly." "Fool, she's a whore, all she cares about is your gold." "They saved your city, bastards(paraphrase)."

[littlespider]

We gots ourselves a troll again. Perhaps Tyrion sent him.

One of the reasons that so far it's been quite a good call by George to not have a Sandor POV. I'm convinced he would be more emo/angsty than Tyrion, and thus annoying.

(I'm saying this as a serious Tyrion fan here, who finds his wangsty angst important to the development of his character, but deeply annoying at times.)

But clearly there is only one way to determine which character is better than the other.

CAGE MATCH!!!

"This thing about your mother." what was he going to say? How did he plan to finish that sentence? "I could keep you safe. No one would ever hurt you again, or I'd kill them." "They're all meat, and I'm the butcher."

As opposed to Tyrion. "Perhaps she does not even see ugly." "Fool, she's a whore, all she cares about is your gold." "They saved your city, bastards(paraphrase)."

Though to be fair, Alexia, there are slews of counter-examples to each of these moments.

But I like 'em both: equally douchey, equally sarcastic (okay maybe Tyrion actually has the win here but it's a close race), equally marked by grudging compassion for others, equally ugly as fuck (though according to Sansa Tyrion has the win), equally alcoholic younger sons of dysfunctional families.

Hmmm... wonder what we make of these weird parallels. Any theories?

[Alexia]

We gots ourselves a troll again. Perhaps Tyrion sent him.

One of Tyrion's pet trolls, fi! Does he look like Tyrion? In my mental image, he looks like Tyrion.

That being said, I completely agree that it was a good call not to have a Sandor POV. I can just imagine it already. Kill GREGOR. Fuck SANSA. Drink WINE. Lather, rinse, repeat. *sleepy yawn* Cersei is an example of a fantastic character who was completely ruined by the inclusion of a POV so I hope Sandor never gets one, or if he does, that it is an epilogue POV. *ducks flying stones*

***I am staring at my synopsis of Sandor's POV, wondering if I capitalized the wrong words. :uhoh:

[FacelessGirl]

We gots ourselves a troll again. Perhaps Tyrion sent him.

One of the reasons that so far it's been quite a good call by George to not have a Sandor POV. I'm convinced he would be more emo/angsty than Tyrion, and thus annoying.

(I'm saying this as a serious Tyrion fan here, who finds his wangsty angst important to the development of his character, but deeply annoying at times.)

But clearly there is only one way to determine which character is better than the other.

CAGE MATCH!!!

I love trolls. Keeps things interesting. ;)

[FacelessGirl]

One of Tyrion's pet trolls, fi! Does he look like Tyrion? In my mental image, he looks like Tyrion.

That being said, I completely agree that it was a good call not to have a Sandor POV. I can just imagine it already. Kill GREGOR. Fuck SANSA. Drink WINE. Lather, rinse, repeat. *sleepy yawn* Cersei is an example of a fantastic character who was completely ruined by the inclusion of a POV so I hope Sandor never gets one, or if he does, that it is an epilogue POV. *ducks flying stones*

Aw, I liked Cersei povs. Utter comedy in my opinion. :lol:

[littlespider]

One of Tyrion's pet trolls, fi! Does he look like Tyrion? In my mental image, he looks like Tyrion.

That being said, I completely agree that it was a good call not to have a Sandor POV. I can just imagine it already. Kill GREGOR. Fuck SANSA. Drink WINE. Lather, rinse, repeat. *sleepy yawn* Cersei is an example of a fantastic character who was completely ruined by the inclusion of a POV so I hope Sandor never gets one, or if he does, that it is an epilogue POV. *ducks flying stones*

***I am staring at my synopsis of Sandor's POV, wondering if I capitalized the wrong words. :uhoh:

He totally looks like Tyrion. It makes me want to cuddle him.

Yeah I think the best emphasis would be KILL FUCK DRINK.

the only way I think a Sandor POV would work is if it's post-QI or at the QI and we get the new persona, coupled with the effort to suppress the old persona. But this entirely depends on that new persona. Who knows, Sandor 2.0 could be wangsty as well. He might be even more prone to manly tears. How that will make the trolls rage!

Aw, I liked Cersei povs. Utter comedy in my opinion. :lol:

Yes I think you are right. I did find it a little bit of a shame that if Martin was going to make her an evil queen, that he had to do it in such a cliched way, you know? Like I expected to feel sympathy for her, but then I didn't.

But then i read DwD. Now I am on Team Cersei and want her back and kicking ASS.

[Alexia]

Though to be fair, Alexia, there are slews of counter-examples to each of these moments.

True, true. But in comparison, just remember that Tyrion is a major character and Sandor is... not.

But I like 'em both: equally douchey, equally sarcastic (okay maybe Tyrion actually has the win here but it's a close race), equally marked by grudging compassion for others, equally ugly as fuck (though according to Sansa Tyrion has the win), equally alcoholic younger sons of dysfunctional families.

I still think it is pretty funny how Sansa thought, when boiled down to its essence, that kissing Sandor was a lot better than kissing Tyrion. :lol: I like them both too, or I did before ADWD at least (though my passion for Tyrion hit its high in ACOK). Sandor the amoral murderous killer and Tyrion the amoral murderous drunk.

I honestly think you get a lot out of contrasting the two, though. Both disfigured but look how they respond to it. They both whore, but Tyrion has this strange habit of wanting the whores to be in love with him. While we haven't seen Sandor's whoring live, I really rather visualize it as more of a functional thing -- taking care of a physical need, so to speak. Although he does tell Sansa that wine and women are all men need -- what to make of that? Sansa affects them both in different ways, they both want her love, her affection, and her desire. Tyrion has the wrong last name, and Sandor approaches her in the wrong way. Sansa influences Sandor to begin a redemptive arc but does she have a similar affect on Tyrion? I don't actually think she does, but I'll toss it out there. Both of them perceive her lack of love as being related to their physical flaws, but with Sandor it was more that she needed a little time to work herself up to it, and with Tyrion it was that he made her a Lannister.

Any other thoughts?

[brashcandy]

No personality! :shocked:

Sandor Clegane has lots of personality. You really see the cracks in his facade (grr... I'm a BIG BAD MEAN MAN and you should be SCARED of me!!!) with Sansa and Arya. He takes care of Arya and treats her like a daughter (or squire, depending on who you ask), he develops a totally inappropriate crush on Sansa and asks her to come with him in a terrifying way before he leaves, and then he completely breaks down when he hears of Sansa's marriage. He has loads of depth and is a beautifully written character. A stone cold killer with a protection fetish who falls in love/lust with a 12-year old, what's not to like? :lol:

I like reading Tyrion chapters, but Sandor rocks it up for personality because he has a facade going on, a public persona he's built up and the way he wants people to perceive him, and then it starts cracking and you see glimpses of a seriously depressed, hurting, suicidal person underneath and you realize that maybe he's just full of shit and he doesn't believe all that crap he's been saying.

"This thing about your mother." what was he going to say? How did he plan to finish that sentence? "I could keep you safe. No one would ever hurt you again, or I'd kill them." "They're all meat, and I'm the butcher."

As opposed to Tyrion. "Perhaps she does not even see ugly." "Fool, she's a whore, all she cares about is your gold." "They saved your city, bastards(paraphrase)."

So true. And didn't Tyrion tell Sansa he would be just like the knight of flowers with the lights off? :ack:

And oh btw, I LOVE your assertion that Sandor has a nervous breakdown after he hears about Sansa's marriage. :lol:

[1234567]

I never got this hype for Sandor Clegane . I feel like he is one of the most overrated characters in this series .

Which is much the same way as I feel about Jaime (whose death cannot come quick enough in my opinion). This is the beauty of GRRM's characters: they appeal to different people in different ways.

Sandor maybe a secondary character, but he is many people's favourite, just like Jaime, Theon, Dany etc. It is because they are so well written they divide people.

This is also why I don't believe the ending of the series can be bittersweet, because everyone is invested in characters differently. So an ending with Sansan becoming a couple and Jaime dying would be totally sweet for some, the worst thing ever for others and then bittersweet only for those who liked both characters.

There is the same hype over Sandor as there is for many over characters and many theories have even more hype R+L=J for example. The interesting thing about Sandor is his popularity as a non-POV.

[Alexia]

I feel like an alcoholic, it is only 6:15PM and I am already on my third glass of wine. :lol:

So true. And didn't Tyrion tell Sansa he would be just like the knight of flowers with the lights off? :ack:

My inner shallow person pops out. I once made out with a guy who was significantly shorter than I am, in a very sleazy (don't ask) incident. I am 5'6" (.5) and he was probably 5'2" or so, and the height difference wasn't initially noticed because of 1) drunkenness, and 2) a pair of 4 inch stiletto heels. It was extremely off-putting, and at that point I decided that I had a minimum standard of no shorter than I am (and he was very cute, btw), and he commented on the height difference too once the shoes came off.

Sorry Tyrion, you aren't the Knight of Flowers with the lights off. Sandor could be, because his scarring is strictly a visual thing. Unfortunately, height is not a visual thing.

And oh btw, I LOVE your assertion that Sandor has a nervous breakdown after he hears about Sansa's marriage. :lol:

The poor man had to sit down to absorb the news, took his wine down as a shot, and then completely freaked out on the Tyrion death fantasies. :lol:

[brashcandy]

And yeah Tyrion gets all the snazzy lines, but i maintain that the best lines of the entire series went to Sandor in that showdown at the inn wth Gregor's men :)

[FacelessGirl]

And yeah Tyrion gets all the snazzy lines, but i maintain that the best lines of the entire series went to Sandor in that showdown at the inn wth Gregor's men :)

This. :thumbsup:

[Alexia]

Yes I think you are right. I did find it a little bit of a shame that if Martin was going to make her an evil queen, that he had to do it in such a cliched way, you know? Like I expected to feel sympathy for her, but then I didn't.

But then i read DwD. Now I am on Team Cersei and want her back and kicking ASS.

While I am with you on the spoiler, Cersei IMO had everything go wrong with making her a POV that possibly could. She completely, totally rocked as a non-POV evil queen. I loved her. I even still feel residual love for her AGOT-ASOS arc. But when she became a POV she became a caricature of an evil queen. All the depth, all the characterization was lost. Her love story with Jaime was diminished. Everything about her was diminished. Yes, there are moments of comedy but in the first three books Cersei had some beautiful themes to her chapters about women, feminism, and power (Sansa/Cersei/Battle of the Blackwater -- epic) that were completely lost when she was made a POV.

Please, GRRM, I don't think I could bear it if you do this to Sandor. Please don't, I beg of you, on bended knee.

[Broodmother]

Absolutely

I honestly think you get a lot out of contrasting the two, though. Both disfigured but look how they respond to it. They both whore, but Tyrion has this strange habit of wanting the whores to be in love with him. While we haven't seen Sandor's whoring live, I really rather visualize it as more of a functional thing -- taking care of a physical need, so to speak. Although he does tell Sansa that wine and women are all men need -- what to make of that? Sansa affects them both in different ways, they both want her love, her affection, and her desire. Tyrion has the wrong last name, and Sandor approaches her in the wrong way. Sansa influences Sandor to begin a redemptive arc but does she have a similar affect on Tyrion? I don't actually think she does, but I'll toss it out there. Both of them perceive her lack of love as being related to their physical flaws, but with Sandor it was more that she needed a little time to work herself up to it, and with Tyrion it was that he made her a Lannister.

Any other thoughts?

I agree, But I'd like to add that in many encounters that both characters have with other characters (As in life psychologists say) others find it easy to believe bad things about them. Tyrion's cunning and ideas that ultimately saved KL in tCoK were overlooked and he was seen as the evil dwarf. And its true we don't get a lot of info on Sandor but I feel that his insistence on Sansa looking at his face, and how he mentions it again with Arya (something to the effect of "at least you can look at me") gives me the feeling that he is pretty resentful regarding people's perception of him because of his looks. Therefore I conclude that all his talk about laughing about Micah was BS in an attempt to make Arya angry enough to kill him. I believe that before that he did yell at her to stop mentioning Micah because I think he probably didn't really take pleasure in killing him but because he looks the way he does Its easier for people to believe that of him.

I only read the books once so far, so I could be forgetting something and be way off but this is how I see it.

[Black Amethyst]

I think it was the outside of the thigh/hip. Otherwise: Arya helping him bandage the wound? AwkWARD. Lucky in his case -- not only would he have risked becoming the One-Balled Wonder of Westeros but even worse nicking the femoral artery, which would suck.

Well technically everything above the knee is considered the thigh (on the leg), and Sandor's a tall guy, so there's a lot of area there, without risk of getting unmanned by a sword. Which I would consider a groin wound anyway.

[Black Amethyst]

Sorry Tyrion, you aren't the Knight of Flowers with the lights off. Sandor could be, because his scarring is strictly a visual thing. Unfortunately, height is not a visual thing.

LOL, not only is he not the Knight of Flowers with the lights off, but there is no way of mistaking SANDOR for the Knight of Flowers either. You know when a "heavily muscled" 6ft+ guy gets into bed with you. Yes please. :leer:

I'd almost need the lights ON with the Knight of Flowers so I'd know it was an actual man creeping into the bed.

[brashcandy]

This. :thumbsup:

The best gems from that scene are :

1. Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you

2. I was hoping you'd do something stupid

Pure gold :)

The poor man had to sit down to absorb the news, took his wine down as a shot, and then completely freaked out on the Tyrion death fantasies. :lol:

Just read the scene again and this is so true. He drinks it straight down and has to sit. The funny thing is that after this the conversation moves on and Polliver and Tickler start talking about Harrenhal and the Blackfish, and Sandor, lost in thought staring at the fire, brings up Sansa again, whilst still gulping his wine :) Nervous breakdown indeed. if Sansa only knew how she nearly made the poor man lose his life...

[Alexia]

Actually, about Sandor's statement: "This thing about your mother."

I find that just so interesting. He was obviously about to try to comfort Arya in some way, and wasn't sure how. I wish I knew what happened to Lady Clegane so that I could do a better job of speculating on what he was thinking and what he wanted to say.

Just read the scene again and this is so true. He drinks it straight down and has to sit. The funny thing is that after this the conversation moves on and Polliver and Tickler start talking about Harrenhal and the Blackfish, and Sandor, lost in thought staring at the fire, brings up Sansa again, whilst still gulping his wine :) Nervous breakdown indeed. if Sansa only knew how she nearly made the poor man lose his life...

Even better... he brings her up again, they start talking about how hot they've heard she is, and he tells them that she's a proper little lady and makes a snide jab at Arya. :lol: One of my favorite moments in the whole series.

[Rinso]

That being said, I completely agree that it was a good call not to have a Sandor POV. I can just imagine it already. Kill GREGOR. Fuck SANSA. Drink WINE.

It's very important that he drinks the WINE last, if he gets drunk first, later he may be so wasted that he'd, well, be confused as to what he had to do with his brother and his girlfriend respectively... But, hey, then nobody would whine that his POV chapter is predictable :uhoh:

Anyway, about Tyrion...

It's immature to compare characters like this, but Sandor is everything but Mr. No Personality. Griff is Mr. No Personality, Quentyn Martell is Mr. No Personality, heck even Victartion Grejoys borders this prestigeous title. If anything Sandor Clegane is one of the more elaborately developed secondary characters in the whole series. And while I loved Tyrion to death (past tense because he bored me to death in ADWD...), he's actually more one dimensional in behaviour even when having a huge amount of spotlight and being, essentially, the teacher's pet.