Sandor Clegane 4

[FacelessGirl]

Someone, some character, needs to not die, to have a happy ending. Else it's like, George, wtf, what's so compelling about a world in which absolutely everyone suffers? Kafka, amongst others, already explored such a scenario. Without a little possibly "happy ever after" there's a massive letdown for the fanz who aren't, btw, all of a cynical nature.

Having typed that, I suppose that there's some form of shipness that offers up a bit of squee that ain't San/San. Maybe Rickon and... damn, which well connected young daughter of note is of an age to Rickon that offers some hope, connectively, for Westerosi redemption?

One of Sandor or Sansa dies, maybe so. In either case George has written himself into a corner such that one or the other is required to posit some Westerosi, or at least Northern Westerosi redemption going forward, unless Rickon and special-young-wife

(Bran's a tree, so kinda immobile and not able to be a spawn partner).

happens.

The redemption of Sandor Clegane, or at least the attempt thereof, with or without Sansa Stark, has to happen, else us fanz who luv the Hound (and whatever incarnation thereto) are going to end up rather meh about anyone else in this fine fantasy series. Is that a risk GRRM is prepared to take?

Well, okay, if it all plays out well enough for Sansa on account of a glorious Sandor sacrifice, then that, too, would be cool.

Darrn, I've totally turned into a San/San shipper, whether or not they actually connect. Yer killing me George.

I knew you had it in you. :P

[Alexia]

The redemption of Sandor Clegane, or at least the attempt thereof, with or without Sansa Stark, has to happen, else us fanz who luv the Hound (and whatever incarnation thereto) are going to end up rather meh about anyone else in this fine fantasy series. Is that a risk GRRM is prepared to take?

Hasn't Sandor already been redeemed, through his interactions with both of the Stark girls? I also see his time at the QI as the answer to Sansa's prayer during the Battle of the Blackwater. And isn't that beautiful, that one person in this world cares about the man, prays for the man, and will mourn him when he dies?

Darrn, I've totally turned into a San/San shipper, whether or not they actually connect. Yer killing me George.

:lol:

Another conversion to the dark side, without quite knowing what happened!

[Alexia]

Here's another thought. The Stark line was once continued through a bastard son of the daughter of Lord Stark, and Bael the Bard. Foreshadowing...

:leer:

[voodooqueen126]

Nothing wrong with happy endings, when a happy ending has been built up. But as things stand, there just can't be a happy ending here. Sandor is too mentally fucked to be able to truly love someone as they would understand the term -- his way of expressing his dismay over Sansa's horrible forced marriage was to say that he should have raped and murdered her when he had the chance. And Sansa herself is too fucked up to be able to experience genuine romantic love as well, her feelings for Sandor Clegane are based on her perception of him as her protector and she doesn't want to marry anymore. Plus, Sandor has that little problem of the Saltpans, BwB, and various bounty hunters.

I admit it, I am a huge fan of Romeo and Juliet. Romantic tragedy, when well done, is the best kind there is. *sniffle*

yeah but isn't the plot of a happy ending supposed to go:

Starts off good

Then gets really, really bad (Belly of the whale)

then happy ending.

Where as tragedy (which is arguably the heroes story from the POV of the villain)

goes

Happy or Saddish

Very happy middle

and then tragic ending.

[Alexia]

Where as tragedy (which is arguably the heroes story from the POV of the villain)

goes

Happy or Saddish

Very happy middle

and then tragic ending.

Don't forget that they still have to get together and have lots and lots of sex, so that he can make her pregnant. Then we get our happy (to some extent) middle and then BOOM tragic ending. I'm tearing up just thinking about it...

[voodooqueen126]

Don't forget that they still have to get together and have lots and lots of sex, so that he can make her pregnant. Then we get our happy (to some extent) middle and then BOOM tragic ending. I'm tearing up just thinking about it...

aha.! but if she does "Deferred pleasure" and says "I will sleep with you after you slay unGregor", thus avoiding

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathBySex

then they can have a happy ending?

It's that whole "final girl" thing

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/FinalGirl. namely that having premarital sex is a way to get slain by zombies.

Here's another thought. The Stark line was once continued through a bastard son of the daughter of Lord Stark, and Bael the Bard. Foreshadowing...

:leer:

Hmn but if Rickon lives then Sansa is very much left off the dynastic hook, she is also in a position to manipulate Rickon into giving her a castle as a dowry.

If Rickon dies of some disease then I would expect Sansa to marry

Aegon

and use him to extinguish house Greyjoy, Lannister and any surviving Freys... it would be her duty to put revenge over romantic love for Sandor f she was the last surviving Stark.

[R & R]

Hasn't Sandor already been redeemed, through his interactions with both of the Stark girls? I also see his time at the QI as the answer to Sansa's prayer during the Battle of the Blackwater. And isn't that beautiful, that one person in this world cares about the man, prays for the man, and will mourn him when he dies?

'Tis beautiful, but then oh, what point is there to the continuation of Sandor's story? That's gonna mess up with all of his fans (totally including me).

Oh my, it's all about Sansa requiring a plot device to escape the Vale and LF and finding some method to enable survival during the cruel Winter and against all those who would actually be rather rid of yet another Stark, thus hoping that Sandor is that device. Ergo, point. Yeah, that works.

[R & R]

Not off topic, because it's about Sandor. :bowdown:

I, for one, having incidentally a knowledge of the Hungarian language, hear the pronunciation of "Sandor" as Shan'dohr (Sándor). As in not Sand-ohr. Long "S" being the key.

Just sayin'.

ETA: a link explaining the origin of Sandor

And I think that it is meaningful that the name implies "defender", such that I'm +1, yet again, with GRRM's awesomeness with regard to research.

[Alexia]

'Tis beautiful, but then oh, what point is there to the continuation of Sandor's story? That's gonna mess up with all of his fans (totally including me).

Oh my, it's all about Sansa requiring a plot device to escape the Vale and LF and finding some method to enable survival during the cruel Winter and against all those who would actually be rather rid of yet another Stark, thus hoping that Sandor is that device. Ergo, point. Yeah, that works.

Pretty much. The thing is, it isn't Sandor's story (even if he did get backstory). Sansa is the main character and the one who matters to the resolution of the primary plot. So while Sandor may have been redeemed, it was never about his redemption but rather about his impact on Sansa. Sandor, Littlefinger, Sweetrobin, and other characters don't exist for the purpose of their own little individual stories -- their role is to get Sansa into the position that GRRM wants her to be in so that she can affect the plot in whatever way he wants.

So he is still needed in Sansa's story, because someone has to clue her in on LF's perfidy and he is really the only I can think of who can do it. Sansa needs a warrior to protect and serve her, and she needs someone to consensually help her get rid of that pesky virginity. She also needs to continue down the road of jadedness about knights and chivalry. Sandor can fit in all of this.

@Voodooqueen,

If Rickon lives, Sansa will be his heir for years and years to come so she won't be off the dynastic hook. What is more, her marriage will have a huge impact on the final resolution of the plot without necessarily installing her husband in Winterfell. Sansa is very likely to become either Lady Tully (and lolz at the idea of Sandor as lord of the riverlands) or a queen, if she doesn't become Lady Stark.

[Black Amethyst]

Redemption can end with death. I'm totally with Alexia on this. I would much rather have some kind of romantic tragedy between them, as long as we get the romantic part beforehand. I'm prepared to let him go, as much as it would suck, as long as he gets some happiness. If George can find a way to have him survive, of course I will be impressed, but it just doesn't seem likely that all the shit of the past couple of books is not going to catch up with him.

Clearing his name at this point is highly improbable. The people with influence that matter are just not going to believe him, but that doesn't necessarily matter. He just needs key individuals to believe him, not the whole populace. We know the shit is going to hit the fan in the next book, so most people are going to be distracted by other matters. I think that will work to Sandor's advantage. Also, travelling in winter will probably be at a bare minimum. I dunno where Septon Meribald is, but he is going to be mighty cold with no shoes on!

I still want to believe that Sandor has some purpose in greater Westeros and will leave QI, but maybe Sansa will stumble on him first. There did seem to be this emphasis on the "women's huts" on the isle. (and they would be such a great booty call place.....ahem) My only problem with QI is that it is such a small out of the way place, it seems unlikely that we would revisit it. I'm still big on Gulltown to serve that purpose.

[littlespider]

I also see his time at the QI as the answer to Sansa's prayer during the Battle of the Blackwater.

YES! This is xactly what I've been saying.

And Sansa's song to him is the first step in him gettin' redemption. While on teh QI, I bet he is saying many of his prayers to the Mother.

http://www.amazon.co...16786342&sr=1-3

found this book in my mother's library. It should be really useful for discussing SanSan, since it is about courtly love.

VQ -- that book is not quite what you'll expect. Camille is a total stud when it comes to medieval art history theory.

He's writing about aesthetic representations of courtly love; the big question when it comes to fin amour is to what extent was it a series of fictive conventions that emerged at an intersection of Andreas Capellanus' and Chretien de Troyes' time at the court of Marie de Champagne? Conventions of courtly love are being subverted and mocked at the same time they are being invented. Martin frequently subverts the myth of medieval courtly lovers, most prominently with Jaime and Cersei.

I guarantee that the book will be a great read, but I don't think it'll be much help in piecing together strands of San/San.

What much more interesting than the typical courtly romance is a particular type of romance called penitential romances. Knights who kick ass, are incredibly strong, but morally repugnant. Knight gets laid low (in various ways). He is made to feel like shit and repent--perhaps for horrific acts of violence, for excessive pride, or for being a douchebag to his woman. Repentance is often tortured, protracted, and moving. Sometimes he goes mad, or is horribly injured, or exiled; sometimes a combination of multiple versions of that. He gains a spiritual mentor or advisor. He may emerge slowly and begin fighting his way back to the top, all the while demonstrating his dedication to reforming himself. (Sometimes there is little fighting involved, but he has to prove his non-douchebaggery in other ways.)

He'll demonstrate his comeback in an epic battle, or a series of epic battles, often proving himself to his lady (or a lady, if he doesn' thave one yet) in the meantime. He'll get back in her good graces, if he had fallen out of them in the first place.

See, e.g.: Tristran, Lancelot, Yvain, Erec, Robert the Devil. And about a thousand others.

As we may guess, usually this knight gets laid in the end, or marries his woman, or continues to happily bang away with his woman until her pissy husband either stabs him in the back (Tristran) or big bad bros of Mordred plot to uncover their affair (Lance).

And sometimes he just heads off at the end to assume the life of a holy man.

I could go on about this model for ages. I think it's possible that we may be seeing at least part of a version of something like this, though we'll have to see how it turns out.

(ETA: NO NO NO I do not think we are looking at any kind of lame Lance/Guinevere or Tristran/Iseult analogue. Hound = so far superior to both of those emo wankers I can't even begin to explain it. Rather I'm looking at the general narrative structure of a few of these stories. I think Yvain or Robert the Devil are actully better examples.)

[Alexia]

Why to the Mother, instead of the Maiden? :leer:

[littlespider]

Why to the Mother, instead of the Maiden? :leer:

Well if it was to the Maiden wouldn't his prayer be a little problematic? "Dear Maiden please protect Sansa and take care of her so I can bang her and she won't be a maiden anymore."

but I get your drift. I do think that in particular it was that song that functioned as a lynch pin for his whole break down (and hopefully, his subsequent rebuilding of himself!).

[headtrip_honey]

What much more interesting than the typical courtly romance is a particular type of romance called penitential romances. Knights who kick ass, are incredibly strong, but morally repugnant. Knight gets laid low (in various ways). He is made to feel like shit and repent--perhaps for horrific acts of violence, for excessive pride, or for being a douchebag to his woman. Repentance is often tortured, protracted, and moving. Sometimes he goes mad, or is horribly injured, or exiled; sometimes a combination of multiple versions of that. He gains a spiritual mentor or advisor. He may emerge slowly and begin fighting his way back to the top, all the while demonstrating his dedication to reforming himself. (Sometimes there is little fighting involved, but he has to prove his non-douchebaggery in other ways.)

He'll demonstrate his comeback in an epic battle, or a series of epic battles, often proving himself to his lady (or a lady, if he doesn' thave one yet) in the meantime. He'll get back in her good graces, if he had fallen out of them in the first place.

See, e.g.: Tristran, Lancelot, Yvain, Erec, Robert the Devil. And about a thousand others.

As we may guess, usually this knight gets laid in the end, or marries his woman, or continues to happily bang away with his woman until her pissy husband either stabs him in the back (Tristran) or big bad bros of Mordred plot to uncover their affair (Lance).

And sometimes he just heads off at the end to assume the life of a holy man.

I could go on about this model for ages. I think it's possible that we may be seeing at least part of a version of something like this, though we'll have to see how it turns out.

(ETA: NO NO NO I do not think we are looking at any kind of lame Lance/Guinevere or Tristran/Iseult analogue. Hound = so far superior to both of those emo wankers I can't even begin to explain it. Rather I'm looking at the general narrative structure of a few of these stories. I think Yvain or Robert the Devil are actully better examples.)

I like the way you think. Sansa can be his Laudine (although I always thought Lunete was the better character)! Although much more R rated, hopefully. (strangely, it's amazing how not G-rated some of the medieval stories were. Thinking of specifically the Knight of the Cart.)

Even if Sandor has to kick it in the end, so long as he and Sansa get a good and proper send off, I think I can accept it.

[brashcandy]

I knew you had it in you. :P

Faceless Girl, where are you?? You keep turning up to console and cheer on reluctant shippers, but where are u!!! :)

[brashcandy]

Anyways, I just cannot be down with this San/San romantic tragedy idea. i appreciate the thinking behind it but i can't be down with it for a few reasons:

1. "The Hound" has had his symbolic death and so has "Sansa Stark" - GRRM has either killed off or transformed the negative, naive aspects of their old personas and in their places we have or should see two new enlightened, emotionally healthy individuals who can forge a successful relationship.

2. The text heavily suggests that they will get married, based on the cloak exchanges - so it won't be just screwing and some illegitimate kids.

3. Sansa hides Sandor's cloak "beneath her summer silks" again suggesting that after the pain and deprivation of winter this relationship will have its time in the sun.

4. Sandor's life was already a big tragedy- he doesn't need anymore tragedy honestly - i know this is GRRM and we feel as though we must expect the worse, but he's already given us the worse, especially with Sandor - young kid gets half his face burnt off by brother, grows up to be the guarddog of an asshole king who abuses the girl that you are beginning to fall for and you're powerless to do anything about it because you work for said King and you're an emotional cripple.

5. Like Alexia, i too love the San/San relationship for its "wrongness" but i also love it because of the rightness that is inherent in its perversity. Nothing could be sweeter than to have Sandor and Sansa actually make this shit work, and the crazy thing is that it could work! Women are no longer being held to enter into political marriages or to carry out daddy's bidding, or i should say that they are in unique positions to subvert daddy's bidding. Nearly all the daddies are dead or dying anyways and the surrogate ones like LF will hopefully get what is coming to them SOON.

Look at Asha (yes Euron has married her against her will but she'll probably escape that fate), look at Arianne (she dodged the bullet with Viserys and may make a real love match with Aegon) Dany has flown off and left Hizdahr, Brienne is a warrior, Alys hightailed it to the Wall and is actually happily married, no one is gonna tell Arya Stark who she can marry, etc etc

So with the old way of things falling apart, Sansa has as good a chance as any to make a real love match with Sandor.

[FacelessGirl]

Faceless Girl, where are you?? You keep turning up to console and cheer on reluctant shippers, but where are u!!! :)

LOL I've been taking care of Faceless business, Sister. But I do come back to see what you guys are up to. Can't believe this is the FOURTH Sandor Clegane thread. :love:

[headtrip_honey]

LOL I've been taking care of Faceless business, Sister. But I do come back to see what you guys are up to. Can't believe this is the FOURTH Sandor Clegane thread. :love:

Technically the fifth. We got rowdy and got a thread disappeared.

[FacelessGirl]

I remember that thread. I don't count it with the others, though.

[headtrip_honey]

I remember that thread. I don't count it with the others, though.

Aw, why not? Despite the off-topic tendencies, there were some serious discussions about how Sandor might get off the Quiet Isle. (many of which we've continued into this thread)