What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Neither Tyrion nor Jaime are holy saints

What is actually wrong with Jaime? I don't see it. Or Tyrion. They're okay people.

[voodooqueen126]

What is actually wrong with Jaime? I don't see it. Or Tyrion. They're okay people.

Jaime fathered the kings heirs with his sister and thus plunged the kingdom into civil war and pushed a kid off a window to cover it up.

Tyrion killed that singer, brought savage barbarians into Kings Landing and gave said savage barbarians weapons which they used to terrorise people when they returend to the Vale, married Sansa to steal Winterfell and strangled Shae.

[Tyrionthebest]

Jaime fathered the kings heirs with his sister and thus plunged the kingdom into civil war and pushed a kid off a window to cover it up.

Tyrion killed that singer, brought savage barbarians into Kings Landing and gave said savage barbarians weapons which they used to terrorise people when they returend to the Vale, married Sansa to steal Winterfell and strangled Shae.

Yea, because arming the mountain clans and strangling Shae were such horrible deeds .... NOT !

[Relic]

Tyrion killed that singer, brought savage barbarians into Kings Landing and gave said savage barbarians weapons which they used to terrorise people when they returend to the Vale, married Sansa to steal Winterfell and strangled Shae.

He armed the mountain clans, yeah. I'm pretty sure those mountain clans have been oppressed by the peoples of the Vale for generations. In a series that is filled with armed conflict and people who love to kill i don't see that as being such a huge crime. He was forced to marry Sansa, and he never consummated the marriage, a noble selfless act that led to further derision and humiliation being heaped upon him by the ingrates who's lives he helped save when Stannis showed up.

edit - strangling Shae was fucked up, that's true. Even if she was a cheating scheming, traitor who might have been fucking his father (im partially convinced that Varys planted her and put the chest underneath the crossbow to make sure Tyrion killed Tywin) he still murdered a girl that he placed in mortal danger by bringing to court. So yes, if you want to hate Tyrion that's probably the most valid reason for it. People have been referring to him as a demon monkey imp in this thread, which is just bizarre. and a little unsettling truth me told.

[voodooqueen126]

He armed the mountain clans, yeah. I'm pretty sure those mountain clans have been oppressed by the peoples of the Vale for generations. In a series that is filled with armed conflict and people who love to kill i don't see that as being such a huge crime. He was forced to marry Sansa, and he never consummated the marriage, a noble selfless act that led to further derision and humiliation being heaped upon him by the ingrates who's lives he helped save when Stannis showed up.

edit - strangling Shae was fucked up, that's true. Even if she was a cheating scheming, traitor who might have been fucking his father (im partially convinced that Varys planted her and put the chest underneath the crossbow to make sure Tyrion killed Tywin) he still murdered a girl that he placed in mortal danger by bringing to court. So yes, if you want to hate Tyrion that's probably the most valid reason for it. People have been referring to him as a demon monkey imp in this thread, which is just bizarre. and a little unsettling truth me told.

Oppressed Mountain clans?

They went around kidnapping women and enslaving them. they are hardly oppressed. and if they were oppressed it is because violent cultures need to be oppressed by their betters.

Of the nine children, Jasper died at three years old. The eldest married Ser Denys Arryn but died soon after him. The youngest married a member of House Hardyng and died not long after that. Two died while children from the pox. One was left scarred by the pox and became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword, lost her bastard child by him and joined the Silent Sisters. The third married the Lord of the Paps but they were childless. The last daughter was carried off by Burned Men on her way to marry a Bracken.^[2]

^K

[The Bloody Boar]

Tyrion (the purpose behind starting this thread)

Hello Dr. Evil… and how do you do? Tyrion Lannister, formerly one of the most sympathetic characters in the book is now practically a cackling caricature of evil (and his POVs are less entertaining than they were in ACOK-ASOS, but I digress). He was planning to set Myrcella and Tommen at war, for the sole purpose of hurting Cersei through Myrcella’s inevitable execution. He wants to rape and murder his sister who, whatever his flaws, has been given plenty of reason to believe that he murdered her child (like how he threatened to rape one of her children, and the constant threats on said child’s life). He walks around bragging about how he had a singer killed because he didn’t like his song. He brags of how he murdered his father and his nephew, wholely embracing the kinslayer label.

When Tyrion cackles, leers and threatens to murder/rape children he is *acting*.

He knows how people perceive him and uses it as a weapon against them. Remember, he didn't actually kill his nephew, and he's clearly very shaken up over his real crimes, namely, his father, Tysha, and even Shae.

[Relic]

When Tyrion cackles, leers and threatens to murder/rape children he is *acting*.

He knows how people perceive him and uses it as a weapon against them. Remember, he didn't actually kill his nephew, and he's clearly very shaken up over his real crimes, namely, his father, Tysha, and even Shae.

absolutely correct. i dn't even see what the debate is about. In a land of foul foul people Tyrion is one of better human beings.

[The Bloody Boar]

Not only did he threaten to rape them, its heavily implied he would have had tommen scourged, had he been able to.:

""I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya," he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. "How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?" But if I don’t, Cersei wins. ...

Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it. He was fond of Tommen."

Those lines crossed the line for me personally. Anyone who would seriously consider having an 8 year old whipped (I imagine he wouldn't actuatly have done it, not for any moral reason, but because he knew his father would kill him for doing so) for the crimes of his mother is evil.

What makes you think he's seriously considering it? He just wants Cersei to believe he would do it. Acting in order to produce an effect, as I said in my last post.

He does consider that he can't afford for Cersei to call his bluff, but that doesn't have to imply he would go through with it. It's strongly implied that he wouldn't. In a way, he's contemplating what a rough world it is where someone like Cersei wins unless you can bring yourself to commit this awful act.

[Tyrionthebest]

absolutely correct. i dn't even see what the debate is about. In a land of foul foul people Tyrion is one of better human beings.

Yes, and he doesn't flush away his crimes like the perfect Jaime Lannister .

[nara]

Regarding the fate of the Lannister sibs...I keep going back to the several mentions in the series of a distraught Ned Stark having to be pulled away from the dead body of his beloved sister, Lynanna. SInce GRRM likes parallels, I think we'll see the same thing with Jaime/Cersei, so Jaime will live and Cersei will die. Although there are mentions of the twins wanting to die together, I've noticed on a couple of occasions that it's phrased as Cersei cannot live while Jaime dies (he thinks this when he is returning to KL and she thinks something similar in the epilogue of ADWD.) It does not ever seem to be said that he cannot live while she dies, so I think that phrasjing means sometthing. Also, since the theory is the Ned promised Lyanna to take care of her child, we'll see a similar promise by Jaime about Cersei's children. However, while Ned supposedly claimed Lyanna's child to keep him safe, Jaime will deny that the kids are his to keep them safe.

[voodooqueen126]

Regarding the fate of the Lannister sibs...I keep going back to the several mentions in the series of a distraught Ned Stark having to be pulled away from the dead body of his beloved sister, Lynanna. SInce GRRM likes parallels, I think we'll see the same thing with Jaime/Cersei, so Jaime will live and Cersei will die. Although there are mentions of the twins wanting to die together, I've noticed on a couple of occasions that it's phrased as Cersei cannot live while Jaime dies (he thinks this when he is returning to KL and she thinks something similar in the epilogue of ADWD.) It does not ever seem to be said that he cannot live while she dies, so I think that phrasjing means sometthing. Also, since the theory is the Ned promised Lyanna to take care of her child, we'll see a similar promise by Jaime about Cersei's children. However, while Ned supposedly claimed Lyanna's child to keep him safe, Jaime will deny that the kids are his to keep them safe.

I think Jaime and Cersei's children will predecease them

[Hound's She-wolf]

He was forced to marry Sansa, and he never consummated the marriage, a noble selfless act that led to further derision and humiliation being heaped upon him by the ingrates who's lives he helped save when Stannis showed up.

How is not forcing yourself on a scared 13 year old girl noble and selfless? You make him sound like a saint for not raping a child.

absolutely correct. i dn't even see what the debate is about. In a land of foul foul people Tyrion is one of better human beings.

Tyrion only appears to be one of the better humans when to compared to foul foul people. That's not saying much. Well, at least he's better than Gregor and Ramsay. OK, yes.

[the Scorpion Knight]

How is not forcing yourself on a scared 13 year old girl noble and selfless? You make him sound like a saint for not raping a child.

Considering the social pressure (Tywin DEMANDED it) It required balls

[Hound's She-wolf]

Considering the social pressure (Tywin DEMANDED it) It required balls

Tyrion didn't do it as much to piss his father off than anything. He still told her to undress and stand in front of him naked and cold while he eye fucked her. He is not on the same level as some of the other villains in the series, but my point was that trying to make him sound like he is a great guy because he didn't have sex with a child is way off base.

[Relic]

How is not forcing yourself on a scared 13 year old girl noble and selfless? You make him sound like a saint for not raping a child.

Because there are very few people in westeros, given his position, would act as he did. consummation is a big deal.

Tyrion only appears to be one of the better humans when to compared to foul foul people. That's not saying much. Well, at least he's better than Gregor and Ramsay. OK, yes.

Actually, it is saying a fair amount. It says that despite his environment he's retained a measure of compassion, integrity, and empathy. so yeah, maybe in our eyes, given our society, he's done some horrible shit. but in westeros? he's one of the better folk we've been introduced too. think of everyone tyrion interacts with from got thru dwd and name 10 people who are better human beings.

[Relic]

Tyrion didn't do it as much to piss his father off than anything. He still told her to undress and stand in front of him naked and cold while he eye fucked her. He is not on the same level as some of the other villains in the series, but my point was that trying to make him sound like he is a great guy because he didn't have sex with a child is way off base.

once a woman has flowered she is no longer a child in westeros. i mean, we're reading the same books right? who, that you have been introduced to, would NOT have had sex with sansa?

[Hound's She-wolf]

once a woman has flowered she is no longer a child in westeros. i mean, we're reading the same books right? who, that you have been introduced to, would NOT have had sex with sansa?

There has been plenty of debate about the age of when someone becomes an adult, so we're reading the same forums right? 13 is still not an adult, Tyrion even says she's still a child.

[Tyrionthebest]

When has this hate of Tyrion suddenly started ? I'm a bit worried about this community defending Cersei and the like but making Tyrion some sort of demon .

[Hound's She-wolf]

When has this hate of Tyrion suddenly started ? I'm a bit worried about this community defending Cersei and the like but making Tyrion some sort of demon .

I don't hate Tyrion, but I'm not going to put him on a pedestal and whitewash his actions. He started the series as the funny, whoring, wise cracking drunk dwarf. Who couldn't love that? I even like when he borrowed a scene from the 1980's Goonies movie and admitted to a bunch of crimes he comitted as a child when on trial at the Eyrie. But then his character started having these- huh, he's not as nice as I thought he was moments and i can't like him as much. If you would like me to write a list so we can discuss, I can.

So hate him? No, but don't love him either.

As far as Cersei, she has done some things that are totally inexcusable (that just can't be defended) and then has done others that if she were a fan favorite (if she had that funny, snarky Tyrion wit) or a male, she wouldn' t get nearly as much hate.

[Relic]

There has been plenty of debate about the age of when someone becomes an adult, so we're reading the same forums right? 13 is still not an adult, Tyrion even says she's still a child.

You have not answered my question. Given the way marriage works in westeros who would not have bedded sansa?