Wall Street Protests

[Shryke]

Many of you can probably guess that I don't feel any bond with the Wall Street Protestors. I feel even less of a bond with those claiming that they are "99%". Ummm...isn't that trying to co-opt ME into how YOU feel?

Sure, this economic downturn hasn't been pretty. Darling and I have definitely seen some personal economic consequences. But it's nothing I feel like protesting in the street over, or claiming that life in America just sucks because "the plutocrats have taken over".

I'm actually quite content here.

Yes, and?

I mean "It didn't effect me much at all, so why should I care?"??? This is your point?

Have you considered that you are the "1%", not the "99%"? (realistically it's probably like 95:5 or the like, but it's a slogan, not a mathimatically exact statement)

[Altherion]

Many of you can probably guess that I don't feel any bond with the Wall Street Protestors. I feel even less of a bond with those claiming that they are "99%". Ummm...isn't that trying to co-opt ME into how YOU feel?

Sure, this economic downturn hasn't been pretty. Darling and I have definitely seen some personal economic consequences. But it's nothing I feel like protesting in the street over, or claiming that life in America just sucks because "the plutocrats have taken over".

I'm actually quite content here.

99% is an overestimate, but just because you're content doesn't mean that there is not a substantial number of people for whom things are not going well, mostly because the plutocrats have taken over. Some sectors of society have been hit a lot harder by this recession than others and the people in those sectors are getting restive. In particular, the people with the most problems are those who have the least education as well as the youth:

From April to July 2011, the number of employed youth 16 to 24 years old rose by 1.7 million to 18.6 million, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This year, the share of young people who were employed in July was 48.8 percent, the lowest July rate on record for the series, which began in 1948.

These people are generally powerless and easily manipulated, but if they get really pissed off, there will be serious trouble. Unless things get better soon, these protesters are merely a vanguard.

[Shryke]

Iceman,

Yes, the EU economy is going along quite smoothly, isn't it? Hey, Robert Mugabe and his policies did great things for Zimbabwe. How about the conservative fiscal policies of the Greek government? That really took Greece to wonderful places didn't it? Spain, Portugal wonderfully conservative fiscal policies.

The Eurozone (not the EU Scot) is going to shit because they have monetary but not fiscal union. And because Eurozone policy is more or less decided by the Germans, who support what's best for Germany (in the short term) and not what's best for the Eurozone as a whole. Also, the Germans are fucking terrified of inflation to a ridiculous degree.

[tzanth]

Yes, I realize it's a slogan. But it's a slogan that pisses me off and isn't going to make me charitably inclined towards this movement. What I'm trying to say (to them) is - don't claim me as one of yours just because I'm not Warren Buffett.

Chataya, I don't think they are trying to claim you at all. From their perspective, you fall into the other %1.

[Shryke]

Yes, I realize it's a slogan. But it's a slogan that pisses me off and isn't going to make me charitably inclined towards this movement. What I'm trying to say (to them) is - don't claim me as one of yours just because I'm not Warren Buffett.

Why would you think they are trying to claim you as one of theirs?

You also miss the point - the economic crisis had a serious effect on my household. But we have to move on and make do with what we have, make what we have work for us.

Let me quote you:

Darling and I have definitely seen some personal economic consequences. But it's nothing I feel like protesting in the street over, or claiming that life in America just sucks

So no, it really doesn't sound like the economic crisis had that serious an effect on you. Not compared to many many others in the US.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Aemon,

But conservative fiscal policy.

Shryke,

I can't imagine why the Germans might be frightened of inflation:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

99% is an overestimate, but just because you're content doesn't mean that there is not a substantial number of people for whom things are not going well

An "overestimate" is being extremely charitable. The truth is the majority of the people do understand that there are significant economic problems, but I suspect that the percentage that share the particular views of the "99%" is well below even a majority.

The truth is that though there is agreement that things are not going well, there is intense disagreement about exactly who/what is responsible, the magnitude of each of the problems listed, and what should be done about them.

And I agree completely with Chats that the "99%" refrain, even as a slogan, is just insulting. There are tens of millions of people who are not personally getting wealthy out of this downturn, who have suffered personally, yet nevertheless disagree with the worldview of the "99%". To say "either you agree with us, or you're obviously just one of those evil corporate fatcats", which is implicit in the whole 99% rhetoric, is simply juvenile.

Privileged little college kids whining about their college loans. Yup, they really represent the working class out there. Pathetic.

[Mya Stone]

Privileged little college kids whining about their college loans. Yup, they really represent the working class out there. Pathetic.

Jeff, it's about a lot more than this. That you marginalize it as such makes you just as bad as those who you're upset about lumping you in with the 99%,

These points stand:

-The cost of a college education is disgustingly high, and puts many families (not just children, but parents who pay for their children's education) into debt.

-The health insurance system is broken. Uncovered health care costs are putting people into serious debt. People with educations, people without educations; there is no prejudice of who this is hitting. This hits especially close to home for me, as I spent a week dealing with my infant son's insurance company. You see, Brandon needed an appointment with a specialist in Boston, and there was much, much red tape to cut through. We ended up going to the appointment without the insurance company approving his visit - they had received the paperwork, yet sat on it for 4 days. If they decided not to cover the visit, it would have cost Kris and I out of pocket. This particular specialist's time (all of 5 minutes), would have put us in debt $7200. Thankfully, I finally heard back from the insurance that they would cover the visit. They called me Monday, 3 days after his appointment. But I would not, and will not, compromise what I deem to be the best care for my child just because the broken system tells me that he doesn't "deserve" it.

-A corollary of ^. Companies are employing shady tactics in order to avoid paying exorbitant insurance fees. This puts costs directly on employees, who quite frankly, aren't making enough to cover the increase of costs themselves.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. This isn't even getting into Wall Street and the banking industry, and unions. But to minimize this movement as just "privileged college kids whining" is bullshit. It's so much more.

[imladolen]

And I agree completely with Chats that the "99%" refrain, even as a slogan, is just insulting. There are tens of millions of people who are not personally getting wealthy out of this downturn, who have suffered personally, yet nevertheless disagree with the worldview of the "99%". To say "either you agree with us, or you're obviously just one of those evil corporate fatcats", which is implicit in the whole 99% rhetoric, is simply juvenile.

Privileged little college kids whining about their college loans. Yup, they really represent the working class out there. Pathetic.

You are completely missing their point in the "99%" slogan.

You do not have to agree with the viewpoints of the demonstrators (hell, most of them don't even agree on everything except the need to protest and demonstrate their outrage at the corruption that runs/ruins the system) to be part of the 99%.

The 99% is the people who are not part of the 1% that controls the economy. They are not trying to say that the 99% is some monolithic grouping that agrees on everything.

If you are not upset at this corruption and greed that dominates the economic and political situation, then you are either one of that 1% in charge, or you have your head buried in the sand and are refusing to open you eyes to the fact that most of the people in the world are completely kept out in the cold while the fat cats sit back and laugh at all of us as they accumulate more and more wealth while the rest of us get poorer and poorer.

Only an idiot takes offense at someone else standing up for them and their children and grandchildren.

And, I have no clue how you figure these protestors are "Privileged little college kids whining about their college loans." First of all, the privileged kids don't need student loans, their mommies and daddies are the sick fraks sitting on Wall Street and in the corporate board rooms.

Additionally, not all of these protestors are college aged students. Apparently you've not paid any attention at all to what is really happening there, or you are willfully ignoring the truth.

So quit letting your petty little insults at the demonstrators FLOW out of you mouth like the sewage it is.

[Shryke]

Shryke,

I can't imagine why the Germans might be frightened of inflation:

http://en.m.wikipedi...Weimar_Republic

That would be hyperinflation.

And yes, it's understandable why they are scared shitless of hyperinflation but that doesn't mean it's actually a reasonable fear right now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mya,

The problem is not acess to health insurance it is the cost of health care. Being forced to buy health insurance is going to do nothing to address the unserlying problem of high health care costs.

[Shryke]

Jeff, it's about a lot more than this. That you marginalize it as such makes you just as bad as those who you're upset about lumping you in with the 99%,

These points stand:

-The cost of a college education is disgustingly high, and puts many families (not just children, but parents who pay for their children's education) into debt.

-The health insurance system is broken. Uncovered health care costs are putting people into serious debt. People with educations, people without educations; there is no prejudice of who this is hitting. This hits especially close to home for me, as I spent a week dealing with my infant son's insurance company. You see, Brandon needed an appointment with a specialist in Boston, and there was much, much red tape to cut through. We ended up going to the appointment without the insurance company approving his visit - they had received the paperwork, yet sat on it for 4 days. If they decided not to cover the visit, it would have cost Kris and I out of pocket. This particular specialist's time (all of 5 minutes), would have put us in debt $7200. Thankfully, I finally heard back from the insurance that they would cover the visit. They called me Monday, 3 days after his appointment. But I would not, and will not, compromise what I deem to be the best care for my child just because the broken system tells me that he doesn't "deserve" it.

-A corollary of ^. Companies are employing shady tactics in order to avoid paying exorbitant insurance fees. This puts costs directly on employees, who quite frankly, aren't making enough to cover the increase of costs themselves.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. This isn't even getting into Wall Street and the banking industry, and unions. But to minimize this movement as just "privileged college kids whining" is bullshit. It's so much more.

But it really is about Wall Street in the end. That's why it's called "Occupy Wall Street" after all.

Because the economy is shit right now, there's no question. And the people who caused the whole issue got bailed out and then went on making shitloads of money and remaining unpunished while the rest of the US economy tanked.

[Shryke]

Mya,

The problem is not acess to health insurance it is the cost of health care. Being forced to buy health insurance is going to do nothing to address the unserlying problem of high health care costs.

Good thing the ACA had a bunch of stuff about that too.

[Altherion]

An "overestimate" is being extremely charitable. The truth is the majority of the people do understand that there are significant economic problems, but I suspect that the percentage that share the particular views of the "99%" is well below even a majority.

The truth is that though there is agreement that things are not going well, there is intense disagreement about exactly who/what is responsible, the magnitude of each of the problems listed, and what should be done about them.

"What is to be done?" is always a difficult question and you will certainly not get a majority to agree on the entirety of it. Likewise, the percentage of even the protesters themselves sharing the any broad set of particular views (such as what is written in that manifesto) is probably significantly lower than 90%. However, the idea that Wall Street is to blame for the problems to a significant extent and that they walked away from them relatively unscathed at the expense of everyone else is fairly popular. It's almost certainly the view of the majority and probably commands 70-80% support (maybe even as high as the nineties, though I am not so sure of that).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

Such as? Prior discussions here led me to believe the primary "cost reduction" mechanism ofthe ACA is the mandates. How is forcing people to buy health insurance going to do anything but put upward pressure on health care costs as more people access the US health care system?

[Mya Stone]

But it really is about Wall Street in the end. That's why it's called "Occupy Wall Street" after all.

Because the economy is shit right now, there's no question. And the people who caused the whole issue got bailed out and then went on making shitloads of money and remaining unpunished while the rest of the US economy tanked.

Shryke,

I 100% agree, I was just trying to point out to Jeff (and Chataya) that it's got many layers - the base of it is in Wall St, and it's affecting way more than just the poor and college kids.

Scot,

I don't want to make this another healthcare debate, but dammit...this is a very very broken system. There has to be a better way. (And you know what? There IS! We just haven't implemented it because we're too busy allowing our elected officials to accept payouts from insurance companies and drug manufacturers.)

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Good thing the ACA had a bunch of stuff about that too.

True but it does a lot of that through restricting certain statistically ineffective, with respect to their costs, medical treatments.

On the balance, I support ACA, just saying that a lot of complaints about health insurance companies will still be there even if health insurance is fully nationalized.

[mor2]

-The health insurance system is broken. Uncovered health care costs are putting people into serious debt. People with educations, people without educations; there is no prejudice of who this is hitting. This hits especially close to home for me, as I spent a week dealing with my infant son's insurance company. You see, Brandon needed an appointment with a specialist in Boston, and there was much, much red tape to cut through. We ended up going to the appointment without the insurance company approving his visit - they had received the paperwork, yet sat on it for 4 days. If they decided not to cover the visit, it would have cost Kris and I out of pocket. This particular specialist's time (all of 5 minutes), would have put us in debt $7200. Thankfully, I finally heard back from the insurance that they would cover the visit. They called me Monday, 3 days after his appointment. But I would not, and will not, compromise what I deem to be the best care for my child just because the broken system tells me that he doesn't "deserve" it.

so you say that your insurance system is broken, because not everyone are able to get the best medical care ?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mya,

I agree it's broken. I just don't believe forcing people to buy intothe system you hate with the ACA is the fix.

[Mya Stone]

so you say that your insurance system is broken, because not everyone are able to get the best medical care ?

Uh, no.