Bronn / Shae- Doubled Standard?

[Verboten]

First, I never meant to imply that that was not the case. My commentary was on the author's characterization of one (relatively minor) character, not his writing skills in general. Plus, there was nothing against the author-- it was the text itself that I disagreed with.

Yes, but as I noted in my post, I still think it would have been possible to present Shae as a complex human being whilst simultaneously showing her as villainous, and encouraging readers to hate her. The way she was drawn struck me as unfair, simplistic, one dimensional, even rather offesnive in many ways. It would have been easy to hint at Shae's humanity and personal motives, all while still seeing things through Tyrion's eyes. Instead, the text does everything it can to fan the flames of reader resentment/ hatred against the girl, and to encourage readers to feel a sense of gratification at her death, and see it as (morally, if not legally) justified.

I don't see it that way. I see it as the fact that none of the other pov's interact in a significant way with Shae, so the only way we can view her is through Tyrion. Therefore it is Tyrion who you should be criticizing not GRRM. But to each her own I guess.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Shae would have raised an alarm before Tyrion was out of Maegor's Holdfast. Of course he had to kill her.

Ah, did not think of that. But do you think that when Tyrion found Shae he was 100% certain he was going to kill his father, and knew he had a witness to eliminate? I felt that both murders were crimes of passion, provoked in the moment by statements of the victims (oh! we're down to manslaughter!). But maybe not . . .

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Bronn didn't betray Tyrion like Shae did.

[brashcandy]

Ah, did not think of that. But do you think that when Tyrion found Shae he was 100% certain he was going to kill his father, and knew he had a witness to eliminate? I felt that both murders were crimes of passion, provoked in the moment by statements of the victims (oh! we're down to manslaughter!). But maybe not . . .

Hmmm, it's debatable but yeah I think the game was up for Tywin Lannister from the get go. Finding Shae in the room just consolidated everything else.

The statements sent him over the edge for sure, but he wanted to kill both of them undoubtedly.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Hmmm, it's debatable but yeah I think the game was up for Tywin Lannister from the get go. Finding Shae in the room just consolidated everything else.

The statements sent him over the edge for sure, but he wanted to kill both of them undoubtedly.

Tywin was not guilty of perjury resulting in a death sentence the way Shae was, yet where are the tears for Tyrion’s murder of Tywin?

[Sword in the Morning]

Tywin was not guilty of perjury resulting in a death sentence the way Shae was, yet where are the tears for Tyrion’s murder of Tywin?

Tywin's a dick.

[Queen Cersei I]

I don't see it that way. I see it as the fact that none of the other pov's interact in a significant way with Shae, so the only way we can view her is through Tyrion. Therefore it is Tyrion who you should be criticizing not GRRM. But to each her own I guess.

That's an intersting theory.

But again, to clarify-- my intention was not to criticize GRRM as a person. I just feel that the character of Shae is unfairly demonized, and treated unfairly. I also find the way she is characterized and treated quite sexist, for reasons I'm not going to bother getting into here. Regardless, though, Shae is one character in a huge series full of numerous characters. I don't think it should qualify as criticizing GRRM-- as either a person or an author-- to take issue with how this one character is portrayed.

Historically, even the greatest authors have been known to put forth poorly drawn or unfairly treated characters. And oftentimes, said characters contain a whiff of sexism, elitism, racism, etc. It does not make them less great, but I think it's worth pointing out such things-- whether or not everyone feels such interpretations are just/ correct. If they are blatantly incorrect (as you seem to believe my perception of Shae and how she is portrayed is) then bringing them up and discussing them will merely allow everyone to see how wrong/ foolish said theory is.

[brashcandy]

Tywin was not guilty of perjury resulting in a death sentence the way Shae was, yet where are the tears for Tyrion’s murder of Tywin?

I guess most people feel Tywin had it coming... and certainly his betrayal of his son throughout the years struck an even deeper cord. I cried no tears for either of them.

[Queen Cersei I]

Tywin was not guilty of perjury resulting in a death sentence the way Shae was, yet where are the tears for Tyrion’s murder of Tywin?

There are many reasons for "the lack of tears" (as you put it) for Tywin Lannister. Let me just cite a few, the most obvious (and, to my mind, the most pressing.)

REASONS WHY THE SHAE MURDER WAS FAR MORE UNJUSTIFIED THAN THAT OF TYWIN

1. The different nature of the relationships. Tywin was Tyrion's father, Shae was a hired 18 year old prostitute. Tywin had every reason for loving and being loyal to Tyrion-- in fact, it could be argued, as the imp's father, that was something, morally speaking, Tywin owed him. Meanwhile, Shae was some hooker who worked for Tyrion. To my mind, she does not owe him love and loyalty in the same way that Tywin did.

Regardless, Tywin showed no love or loyalty towards Tyrion. In fact, he abused him, when Tyrion was little and most vulnerable. The fact that Shae did not love Tyrion was as predictable as it was understandable. Even for those (the majority, it seems) who totally identify with Tyrion, you must admit that Shae did not really "owe" him love, from a perspective of common sense. However, Tywin, Tyrion's father, did. It was his moral duty to love and care for his child. Instead, he did the opposite. He neglected, insulted, and shamed his son. And, on at least one occaision, he was downright abusive. Which brings me to....

2. The extent of the wrongs committed by each character. Shae betrayed Tyrion by lying in court. She wronged him greatly, to be sure. However, her "betrayal" does not even begin to compare with Tywin's. Tywin was responsible for having his own son sexually abused and traumatized for life at the age of 13. Oh, and he arranged for the gangraped of a little girl. And forced his 13 year old kid to watch it. As far as I know, Shae was not culpable for any sort of moral attrocity on that level.

3. The power imbalance. I have never claimed Shae was "forced" to be a hooker, but the fact is, she was a young woman with a very limited set of options. As Tyrion's hooker, she was very much in Tyrion's power-- she was his inferior, economically, socially, etc. She's in a position of relative powerlessness. Which is why Tyrion's murder of her reeks of domestic abuse. In contrast, Tywin is one of the wealthiest and most powerful lords in the realm. When Tyrion murdered Tywin, it held the whiff of a victim, long abused, striking back at his abuser. Shae? Not so much. As I said, I got a definite whiff of domestic violence off of that one, though it was portrayed as moral justice, or whatever.

There are other reasons, if you'd like to get into them.

Re: Tywin being a monster-- no doubt Tywin Lanister is hatable. But he is also clearly a very complex, multi dimensional character who is drawn (though with no sympathy) with a certain amount of respect. Not so Shae. When I think of the way Tywin was drawn-- as a complex human being-- I am all the more dissapointed at the hateful, one dimensional way GRRM chose to portray Shae.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Tywin was not guilty of perjury resulting in a death sentence the way Shae was, yet where are the tears for Tyrion’s murder of Tywin?

Tywin was guilty of sexually assaulting an innocent child and his own minor son both at once. Deserves to burn for that alone and that's not even considering everything he's ordered done (e.g. Rhaegar's children's murders and Elia's, rape and murder of hundreds of smallfolk, etc).

I do feel deeply disturbed at Tyrion's murder of Tywin, actually. I think it was huge for Tyrion and not in a good way. Tyrion's never going to be quite right again, in my opinion. He'll be haunted by that forever, probably even more than by Shae's murder (which unfortunately doesn't say much about Tyrion's morality but there you go).

[mediocre cheese]

Alright, let me put it this way. Never, in his entire life, has anyone loved Tyrion or been attracted to him. (yes, he's over privileged and rich, and easily the most ideally situated dwarf in the seven kingdoms. Those facts are irrelevant--you can be rich as hell and still be lonely.) If you read his chapters early on, you'll realize that's all he truly wants. He wants to be a clever schemer so that his father will recognize him and be proud. He is constantly thinking about the fact that the smallfolk demonize him, even though he has done nothing but try to protect them and rule as best he can. He wants their approval. He wants love.

But here is the thing, he won't consider lolys. He chooses not to be in a relationship with Penny, even though she is clearly willing. He is lonely because despite being hideously ugly he wants love from physically attractive women and won't consider ugly women. If I, an average looking dude, would only date supermodels I'd be pretty lonely as well.

His love for shae, is of course ridiculously shallow, shae is like a living fuckdoll. tyrion is supposdly clever, but its not like she assists him with his political life. Tyrion is supposdly academic, but its not shae discusses books or dragons with him, she's illiterate. We never get a sinle interesting conversation between the two. Shae is a prostitute, who he's paying as others have said to be his fantasy girlfriend, and his fantasy girlfriend apparently involves complimenting him on his looks and sucking his dick, and not much else. Its hard for me to be sympathetic to a guy whose been judged on his looks his whole life who falls in love with a prostitute solely because she's a pretty face who has sex with him and tells him what he wants to hear.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Also Tywin derseved death for a lot more than just his treatment of Tyrion.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Tywin was not guilty of perjury resulting in a death sentence the way Shae was, yet where are the tears for Tyrion’s murder of Tywin?

Tywin is a mass murderer and a rapist of children...among other things.

[Bourne]

No.

Bronn chose not to risk his life to save Tyrion's.

Shae chose to lie in court and in doing so was directly responsible for Tyrion's death.

If you don't see the difference you're blinded by your need to find sexism in the story.

[SerArthurHeath]

Meh, this is why when someone tries to say Tyrion is the nicest lannister of the 3 and a good person I get annoyed. His approach is just as self-centred, ruthless, obsessive and oft immoral as the other two, with similar frequency of moments of true mercy and kindness. I just think he hasn't had enough opportunity to abuse that as dangerously as Jaime and Cersei, plus the fact we have had his admittedly clever and funny PoV since the start and havent had to see him as antagonist and feel sorry for his deformity and upbringing all adds together to make readers give him an unwarranted free pass.

It really seems that being a book 1 PoV makes people infallible in some eyes

[SerArthurHeath]

No.

Bronn chose not to risk his life to save Tyrion's.

Shae chose to lie in court and in doing so was directly responsible for Tyrion's death.

If you don't see the difference you're blinded by your need to find sexism in the story.

But the main difference actually lies in what was within their power: Bronn was completely free in his choice and made the free decision not to intervene, which was completely fair IMO.

Shae, though we can't know for sure, almost certainly did not have a free choice. If she displeases Cersei there is nobody who will protect her from Cersei's infamous wrath.

Edit: because previously it looked like Arya would protect Shae!

[Queen Cersei I]

Meh, this is why when someone tries to say Tyrion is the nicest lannister of the 3 and a good person I get annoyed. His approach is just as self-centred, ruthless, obsessive and oft immoral as the other two, with similar frequency of moments of true mercy and kindness. I just think he hasn't had enough opportunity to abuse that as dangerously as Jaime and Cersei, plus the fact we have had his admittedly clever and funny PoV since the start and havent had to see him as antagonist and feel sorry for his deformity and upbringing all adds together to make readers give him an unwarranted free pass.

:agree:

It really seems that being a book 1 PoV makes people infallible in some eyes

That, and the fact that there seems to be a fair amount of favortism and identification going on with the author for this character. Tyrion gets special treatment as does almost no one else in the narrative. :dunno:

[Ah Man]

No.

Bronn chose not to risk his life to save Tyrion's.

Shae chose to lie in court and in doing so was directly responsible for Tyrion's death.

If you don't see the difference you're blinded by your need to find sexism in the story.

I tend to agree with this. There have been references to a modern business relationship. Bronn is the guy who leaves your company for a better job. Shae is the guy that takes your company secrets to the competition. What Shae did may not have been morally reprehensible, especially as she was likely in personal danger if she didn't say what Cersei wanted her to say, but I don't think their actions are analogous from Tyrion's point of view.

I agree entirely that Tyrion's murder of Shae was unjustified (or, at least the vitriol behind it was; there may be an argument for killing her as collateral damage in getting Tywin). I don't think Shae's actions were worthy of condemnation, considering she may well have been threatened. But analogous to Bronn? I'm not convinced.

I don't think the readers' perceptions of them are comparable either. I, for one, found reading about Bronn to be my favorite part of A Feast for Crows. He's just fun to read about. On the other hand, the parts with Shae and Tyrion in A Clash of Kings are pretty much the only parts of the series that I straight up skim over in rereads. I like Bronn for most of the same reasons I like Arya. I dislike Shae for the same reason I dislike Pycelle. There's far too many differences between them to attribute difference in their popularity to their professions, let alone their sexes.

[Rinso]

Shae chose to lie in court and in doing so was directly responsible for Tyrion's death.

Not that this is untrue, but I wonder how much of a choice was Shae actually given. I don't know if you guys remember, but Cersei interrogated Shae personally before she made her testify. So, really, how much of a choice do you think Cersei gave her once she learned that Shae was Tyrion's whore?

Now, what I think Shae truly chose to do herself is not so much the whole lying testimony about the Imp's plotting, but the bit in the end about the "Giant of Lannister". This was uncalled for and served no purpose other than to humiliate Tyrion. By this point Shae had already said the important stuff lies and thus she had done what Cersei wanted. The whole "Giant of Lannister" thing was just a small show of cruelty by a person who thought that she was just going to get away with it (and it wasn't even the first time when she showed she's capable of such small acts of cruelty - the way she spoked about Lolys and the idea to drug Sansa and have sex with Tyrion next to her don't generally paint her as an innocent young girl with a heart of gold).

So yeah, it's impossible to admire Shae and it's damn hard to feel bad for her. It's just the way she's written.

[1234567]

Also Tyrion knew the Shae would be hung by his father if the relationship was discovered. Despite that he still kept her near him. What would have happened if Tywin had found out about Shae while Tyrion was married to Sansa; Tywin probably would have threatened to have her killed if Tyrion didn't consumate the marriage. So by keeping Shae in KL he was selfishly risking her life and risking further alienating and breaking his oath to his wife (who was forced to marry him).

Tyrion never seems to see that his actions have consequences for others. He says practically the same thing before his wedding to Sansa that he says to Shae, which amounts to, if you are good to me I maybe kind to you.

Never once does he consider that there may have been a threat of death over Shae's head during the trial or that his treatment of her was not always the best (such as slapping her and then telling her how his first wife was gangraped, which although Tyrion meant it as a way of explaining the situation as far as we know Shae took it as an act of violence followed by a threat). He never bothered getting to know her. He did bother to get to know Bronn and what sort of man he was and therefore wasn't surprised that he refused to help him.

Shae was a greedy and selfish woman and may well have despised Tyrion for all we know. At the end of the day to her he is just another customer. Tyrion's problem was that he never got to know Shae, so didn't realise what a vile woman she was. She was awful about Lolys and what she said about Sansa in Court was the most damning evidence against her, and although that does sound like something Cersei has thought up to make her say in court, she is still helping two innocent people being charged with murder. Personally I still don't get why no one in court asked Shae why she hadn't come forward with information earlier if she knew about a plot on the King's life.

Tyrion killing his father I completely get, but killing Shae is exactly the same as Victarion killing his wife IMHO.