Jon Snow’s (possible) reign

[Eyron]

Re: Fassreiter

I agree that Mance is a great character, and I assure you that I would like to see him restored to his glorious badass self!

The reason he's left out a bit in my theory of the future is

I have a bad feeling about what's happened to him in Winterfell. Either he is under torture from Ramsay, with little hope of getting out alive or in any good shape, or he has turned on Jon. Maybe he supplied Ramsay with the information that was in the letter... I really hope not, but as I said I'm really worried. I'm not completely sure Mance is on team Jon, he was "burned" and Jon didn't stop Stannis from doing it.

It also looks like Mance is on some other mission in Winterfell. He and the spearwives didn't exactly hurry to the rescue of Arya/Jeyne, they let her be raped multiple times before doing anything and seemed to be more interested in the crypts.

Mance has been there before, not too long ago, maybe he hid something in the crypts or knows something about them. What he knows he has kept from Jon, and that puzzles me.

Re: Shaggydog

Well you have much to look forward to at the ADWD forum. It's all speculation!

[Shaggydog Stark]

Re: Shaggydog

Well you have much to look forward to at the ADWD forum. It's all speculation!

I am looking forward to it. I think I will call it day. See you later :)

[Geddus]

Doran? You mean his niece and nephew, not his grandchildren. Doran has no grandchildren, Elia was his sister, not daughter.

Yeah you're right, I got confused, all those relatives... and the fact that in my language we use the same word for "nephew" and "grandchild" didn't help. ;)

[brashcandy]

Re: Fassreiter

I agree that Mance is a great character, and I assure you that I would like to see him restored to his glorious badass self!

The reason he's left out a bit in my theory of the future is

I have a bad feeling about what's happened to him in Winterfell. Either he is under torture from Ramsay, with little hope of getting out alive or in any good shape, or he has turned on Jon. Maybe he supplied Ramsay with the information that was in the letter... I really hope not, but as I said I'm really worried. I'm not completely sure Mance is on team Jon, he was "burned" and Jon didn't stop Stannis from doing it.

It also looks like Mance is on some other mission in Winterfell. He and the spearwives didn't exactly hurry to the rescue of Arya/Jeyne, they let her be raped multiple times before doing anything and seemed to be more interested in the crypts.

Mance has been there before, not too long ago, maybe he hid something in the crypts or knows something about them. What he knows he has kept from Jon, and that puzzles me.

Re: Shaggydog

Well you have much to look forward to at the ADWD forum. It's all speculation!

I completely agree here, Eira. Mance was definitely on his own fact finding mission at Winterfell. What could be in those crypts... I know that the prevailing theory is that Sam took the Horn of Joramun with him to Oldtown... but what if he didn't... or what if there's another part to the horn in the crypts... :dunno: And i'm fuzzy on the details of ADWD.. have to do a reread,, but weren't swords also missing from there as well

[Eyron]

I was thinking the same about the crypts in Winterfell.

the horn must turn up somewhere right? About the swords, I have to reread that and check how many Bran & co took and how many there are at the moment. I vaguely remember something about another sword missing from Theons revisit in the crypts but I'm not sure.

[fassreiter]

Re: Fassreiter

I agree that Mance is a great character, and I assure you that I would like to see him restored to his glorious badass self!

The reason he's left out a bit in my theory of the future is

I have a bad feeling about what's happened to him in Winterfell. Either he is under torture from Ramsay, with little hope of getting out alive or in any good shape, or he has turned on Jon. Maybe he supplied Ramsay with the information that was in the letter... I really hope not, but as I said I'm really worried. I'm not completely sure Mance is on team Jon, he was "burned" and Jon didn't stop Stannis from doing it.

It also looks like Mance is on some other mission in Winterfell. He and the spearwives didn't exactly hurry to the rescue of Arya/Jeyne, they let her be raped multiple times before doing anything and seemed to be more interested in the crypts.

Mance has been there before, not too long ago, maybe he hid something in the crypts or knows something about them. What he knows he has kept from Jon, and that puzzles me.

Well, thank you :)

Still, all of what you say remains to be seen. As you are planning Jon's realm, and Jon has currently bigger problems than Mance, namely being dead, all we can assume is that GRRM will find a way. And I want Jon as much as you as King in the North. I am pretty sure that Starks and the free folk fighting together against the Others has been foreshadowed since Osha wanted Robb to go north instead of south. Did she want to have Mance and his people slaughtered by his armies? Course not. She wanted the two of them to join their armies. A lot of sick things could have been prevented if he had listened. There is also the story of Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell joining forces against a corrupted Night's Watch and the Others. So where's your problem if it's Mance who leads his people FOR Jon against the Others, and not Jon himself? He doesn't even speak their language, doesn't know their songs and lives a completely different culture. Don't worry, Mance will die in this fight (the first thing he does coming on screen is singing about it, so there you go), and then the free folk will melt into the realm and Jon will be kind of their king, too. Yes. But this will be incredibly sad, as has also been foreshadowed by the song about the giants all along.

And as much as I like Jon (by now), he is a good kid and a good leader, and he probably has kingship written all over him by Stark and Targaryen descent, but being the King beyond the Wall requires a different kind of kingship, and Jon doesn't have that in him. In order to lead this proud and free spirited kind of people, you need to be more proud and free spirited than any of them, and Jon lacks both the arrogance and this certain kind of slight crazyness that comes with it. It's a title than can only be filled by a minor character because it's nothing short of complete and crazy badassery. You could only destroy it by putting dutyfull, solemn Jon into it. GRRM did a wonderful with the free folk and Mance, who are my favourites in all the series, and I don't want to see them getting messed up by just piling titles/followers upon titles/followers on Jon.

As for your 'worries', it's probably not the thread to discuss them and I have written endlessly about the letter in other threads, but just a few words:

- GRRM would not go through all that trouble of burning, glamoring and returning Mance if he just planned for him to get killed by the most hated guy in the series. What would be the point? I am worried too, no question, but not that much. The man knows how to build up a good story arc.

- What you say is not true. Jon tried to save Mance's life and Mance knows it because Melisandre made it a point in front of Jon and Mance both that he owes his life to Jon because he told Stannis that the laws of the realm end at the Wall. I am convinced, by the way, that Stannis knows about the switcheroo, as 1. Melisandre wouldn't care about any of their laws (therefore no need to point this out if otherwise), 2. Mance and his girls in Winterfell relied upon Stannis to get Arya savely away from the castle, and last but not least, 3. the pink letter even says Stannis AND Jon lied about the fake execution, so only someone who thought as much could have told Ramsay/written that: Mance or his girls, who doubtlessly know who he is. I also don't think Mance has a reason or even a chance to turn on Jon, and wouldn't do it even if he did not hold his kid. In fact he has already acknowledged that Jon does a good job as LC, being busy saving his people when he can't, and why should he wish to change that? He goes to Winterfell because he owes Jon and because he needs his trust, as Melisandre knows as well. And her fires don't lie, even if she might be a bitch. And what's more, Mance could have killed Jon a thousand times, and even after he was dead sure he was working for the Night's Watch, and angry wildlings were all over the place, going endlessly: Mance, can we kill him now, Mance, can I have his bones, Mance, can I have his direwolf, all he said was: nope. Even Tormund says in anger that Mance should have killed Jon when he had the chance. But he didn't even make a move to kill him after Jon drew his sword in his tent and under truce(!), making it clear he was sent to kill him. But now, as Jon proved to take care of his people and save his life, he suddenly snaps and wants to pay him back? Nah.

- Mance did not plan to go to Winterfell, he is there for no other reason than the fact that Ramsay took Arya there to marry her. He probably came upon that info while looking for her elsewhere. If the marriage had taken place at the Dreadfort, he would be there. Of course, GRRM needs a reason for Jon to march on Winterfell and reclaim it, so he has the Boltons do this little propaganda move. Furthermore: If Mance had discovered something in the crypts during Robert's stay at Winterfell, why would he do everything from marrying Dalla, fighting the Others, looking for the Horn of Winter and gathering his people, but not make a move to reclaim it? Why wouldn't Melisandre have seen it? But most important: Mance has never even been inside the crypts before, because he doesn't know where they are. Why else go around the dangerous business of asking Theon, Ramsay's spy, about it? And the reason he wants to know about the crypts is clear: They need them as a hiding place if anything goes wrong or if they need more time making the escape with Arya, following Bael the Bard's song. Theon states explicitly that Winterfell is closed and is closely watched, so they need a place like this. This is also why Mance and his girls can't go into immediate action with the rescue mission, they need a plan and information. The spearwives are clearly shocked by Ramsay's treatment of 'Arya', and Theon even thinks Mance's plan to be completely crazy. They follow through with it anyway because they couldn't come up with anything better. They are in a castle full of batshit crazy Boltons with a lasting snow storm outside. But they follow through with a badass crazy plan (and two spearwives die for it, for God's sakes!) because it's their mission and they are intent on getting Arya out of there. We don't know what happened after, but I am glad the surviving group does know about the crypts by now.

- As for the missing swords: These were taken by Osha, Hodor, Bran, and Meera in ACOK.

[Eyron]

Well, thank you :)

Still, all of what you say remains to be seen. As you are planning Jon's realm, and Jon has currently bigger problems than Mance, namely being dead, all we can assume is that GRRM will find a way. And I want Jon as much as you as King in the North. I am pretty sure that Starks and the free folk fighting together against the Others has been foreshadowed since Osha wanted Robb to go north instead of south. Did she want to have Mance and his people slaughtered by his armies? Course not. She wanted the two of them to join their armies. A lot of sick things could have been prevented if he had listened. There is also the story of Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell joining forces against a corrupted Night's Watch and the Others. So where's your problem if it's Mance who leads his people FOR Jon against the Others, and not Jon himself? He doesn't even speak their language, doesn't know their songs and lives a completely different culture. Don't worry, Mance will die in this fight (the first thing he does coming on screen is singing about it, so there you go), and then the free folk will melt into the realm and Jon will be kind of their king, too. Yes. But this will be incredibly sad, as has also been foreshadowed by the song about the giants all along.

And as much as I like Jon (by now), he is a good kid and a good leader, and he probably has kingship written all over him by Stark and Targaryen descent, but being the King beyond the Wall requires a different kind of kingship, and Jon doesn't have that in him. In order to lead this proud and free spirited kind of people, you need to be more proud and free spirited than any of them, and Jon lacks both the arrogance and this certain kind of slight crazyness that comes with it. It's a title than can only be filled by a minor character because it's nothing short of complete and crazy badassery. You could only destroy it by putting dutyfull, solemn Jon into it. GRRM did a wonderful with the free folk and Mance, who are my favourites in all the series, and I don't want to see them getting messed up by just piling titles/followers upon titles/followers on Jon.

As for your 'worries', it's probably not the thread to discuss them and I have written endlessly about the letter in other threads, but just a few words:

- GRRM would not go through all that trouble of burning, glamoring and returning Mance if he just planned for him to get killed by the most hated guy in the series. What would be the point? I am worried too, no question, but not that much. The man knows how to build up a good story arc.

- What you say is not true. Jon tried to save Mance's life and Mance knows it because Melisandre made it a point in front of Jon and Mance both that he owes his life to Jon because he told Stannis that the laws of the realm end at the Wall. I am convinced, by the way, that Stannis knows about the switcheroo, as 1. Melisandre wouldn't care about any of their laws (therefore no need to point this out if otherwise), 2. Mance and his girls in Winterfell relied upon Stannis to get Arya savely away from the castle, and last but not least, 3. the pink letter even says Stannis AND Jon lied about the fake execution, so only someone who thought as much could have told Ramsay/written that: Mance or his girls, who doubtlessly know who he is. I also don't think Mance has a reason or even a chance to turn on Jon, and wouldn't do it even if he did not hold his kid. In fact he has already acknowledged that Jon does a good job as LC, being busy saving his people when he can't, and why should he wish to change that? He goes to Winterfell because he owes Jon and because he needs his trust, as Melisandre knows as well. And her fires don't lie, even if she might be a bitch. And what's more, Mance could have killed Jon a thousand times, and even after he was dead sure he was working for the Night's Watch, and angry wildlings were all over the place, going endlessly: Mance, can we kill him now, Mance, can I have his bones, Mance, can I have his direwolf, all he said was: nope. Even Tormund says in anger that Mance should have killed Jon when he had the chance. But he didn't even make a move to kill him after Jon drew his sword in his tent and under truce(!), making it clear he was sent to kill him. But now, as Jon proved to take care of his people and save his life, he suddenly snaps and wants to pay him back? Nah.

- Mance did not plan to go to Winterfell, he is there for no other reason than the fact that Ramsay took Arya there to marry her. He probably came upon that info while looking for her elsewhere. If the marriage had taken place at the Dreadfort, he would be there. Of course, GRRM needs a reason for Jon to march on Winterfell and reclaim it, so he has the Boltons do this little propaganda move. Furthermore: If Mance had discovered something in the crypts during Robert's stay at Winterfell, why would he do everything from marrying Dalla, fighting the Others, looking for the Horn of Winter and gathering his people, but not make a move to reclaim it? Why wouldn't Melisandre have seen it? But most important: Mance has never even been inside the crypts before, because he doesn't know where they are. Why else go around the dangerous business of asking Theon, Ramsay's spy, about it? And the reason he wants to know about the crypts is clear: They need them as a hiding place if anything goes wrong or if they need more time making the escape with Arya, following Bael the Bard's song. Theon states explicitly that Winterfell is closed and is closely watched, so they need a place like this. This is also why Mance and his girls can't go into immediate action with the rescue mission, they need a plan and information. The spearwives are clearly shocked by Ramsay's treatment of 'Arya', and Theon even thinks Mance's plan to be completely crazy. They follow through with it anyway because they couldn't come up with anything better. They are in a castle full of batshit crazy Boltons with a lasting snow storm outside. But they follow through with a badass crazy plan (and two spearwives die for it, for God's sakes!) because it's their mission and they are intent on getting Arya out of there. We don't know what happened after, but I am glad the surviving group does know about the crypts by now.

- As for the missing swords: These were taken by Osha, Hodor, Bran, and Meera in ACOK.

Well, you have me convinced. I really see why Mance would not betray Jon.

I think I'm getting paranoid from all the backstabbing and the building up of characters just to have them killed off. So I still fear that Mance could have been killed off screen, it's not impossible considering GRRMs narrative style.

What do you think of the duel they had at Castle Black? Was it Mances' way of testing Jon, I mean to see if he himself still was the strongest badass around? I sensed some hostility in that episode, like Mance really had to restrain himself from killing/hurting Jon. I guess that's what triggered my suspicions in the first place actually.

I really have no problem with Mance being king of the wildlings in the future, I have never excluded that possibility. If he survives I think he will follow Jons lead, or fight beside him. So I made no destinction between the to possibilities since this made little difference to me when discussing Jon's future specifically. So I can see why you thought I was ignoring Mance.

I also don't want the wildlings to become kneelers, but I think the future for them is really open at this point. I hope that there will be a big change at the wall (skip the stupid vows for one thing) and that the gift will be given to the wildlings, if the wall is still standing by the end of the great debacle with the Others :fencing:

I really wish the whole order of politics will change, especially in the north, so that they all would be free to choose their leaders, just like the wildlings do.

There is a reason I think Jon will be King in the North only in name and not in essence, I think he will call himself king if it's necessary to get the Northmen to follow, but he will not remain king for longer than he needs. And I don't think he will end up as Lord of Winterfell either, but maybe as lord "regent" or "protector" to one of his younger siblings - if he survives until the end of this story... To be honest I don't think there will be a very happy ending for him, but I still hope for it. :(

I know, I'm very depressing ;)

[Shaggydog Stark]

I was thinking the same about the crypts in Winterfell.

the horn must turn up somewhere right? About the swords, I have to reread that and check how many Bran & co took and how many there are at the moment. I vaguely remember something about another sword missing from Theons revisit in the crypts but I'm not sure.

Those bloody crypts, I wish I could somehow go and check them out for myself. I think the crypts are the key to everything. There are so many theories of what is in the crypts that it's hard to keep up.

1- The horn of winter. (I think this one might be true)

2- Something to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar is down there.(Big possibility)

3- tunnels leading to the cave of the CoTF's are found in the crypts.(Makes sense)

4- An extra missing sword separate from the ones Bran and co. took. Maybe the ghost of winterfell is down there and is the one using the missing sword? (Could be true)

5-Some even suggest a dragon is/was down there.(As insane as it sounds, even this could be possible)

[fassreiter]

Well, you have me convinced. I really see why Mance would not betray Jon.

I think I'm getting paranoid from all the backstabbing and the building up of characters just to have them killed off. So I still fear that Mance could have been killed off screen, it's not impossible considering GRRMs narrative style.

What do you think of the duel they had at Castle Black? Was it Mances' way of testing Jon, I mean to see if he himself still was the strongest badass around? I sensed some hostility in that episode, like Mance really had to restrain himself from killing/hurting Jon. I guess that's what triggered my suspicions in the first place actually.

I really have no problem with Mance being king of the wildlings in the future, I have never excluded that possibility. If he survives I think he will follow Jons lead, or fight beside him. So I made no destinction between the to possibilities since this made little difference to me when discussing Jon's future specifically. So I can see why you thought I was ignoring Mance.

I also don't want the wildlings to become kneelers, but I think the future for them is really open at this point. I hope that there will be a big change at the wall (skip the stupid vows for one thing) and that the gift will be given to the wildlings, if the wall is still standing by the end of the great debacle with the Others :fencing:

I really wish the whole order of politics will change, especially in the north, so that they all would be free to choose their leaders, just like the wildlings do.

There is a reason I think Jon will be King in the North only in name and not in essence, I think he will call himself king if it's necessary to get the Northmen to follow, but he will not remain king for longer than he needs. And I don't think he will end up as Lord of Winterfell either, but maybe as lord "regent" or "protector" to one of his younger siblings - if he survives until the end of this story... To be honest I don't think there will be a very happy ending for him, but I still hope for it. :(

I know, I'm very depressing ;)

Yes, I know what you mean. Whatever happens, I won't be too happy about it, I guess. It's GRRM. Not much counting here on Jon being Aragorn, if you get my meaning, though I hope he ends up somewhere along that line, at least.

I also think the free folk are set up a little bit like a deconstructed, anarchist, and more dangerous version of Tolkien's elves and dwarves (yeah, I know, but hear me out now!), because all their chapters are already lined with a sense of loss and doom. We have Ygritte dreaming about her little castle, for example, when we can be sure she is going to die soon. Then we see the last of the giants, have all those songs about death and decline, see all those scared and lost people in the prologue, we have impending doom at Hardhome, we have wildlings being sold into slavery...

In fact, they are a people that have mostly been living in the past, dwelling on their stories and boasting about great deeds (like Tormund Talltalker), in hostile territory at that, and Mance's hope to secure a future for them while not giving up their freedom was shattered by Stannis. All their great songs and stories deal with loss and failed attempts like this, like Gendel's children or Bael the Bard, and their personal histories are also sad, like Varamyr's. I don't see any place for the free folk in a world of realpolitik, they only work in a romantic place like the lands beyond the Wall, which is, from a narrative point of view, also a liminal place in essence: We only get to see it in extremes, like it's extremely cold and bleak, but also extremely beautiful. But also it works only in narrative extremes: Either there are no wildlings at all to be seen, or a host of 40 000. You don't get any status quo there, from a narrative POV, it's all about going in there in order to get out again. You can't build up a kingdom there, you can barely imagine living there on a daily basis, and Mance's kingship was therefore centered in his person and in his scenes and stories. Now you can't just extract those liminal people and their liminal king and put them into a feudal society, however much reformed, without taking away these traits. This is why I think they are doomed anyway, and will either die in great numbers in the fight against the Others, or stop being what they were and come to terms with realpolitik (bank accounts and gratis toasters included).

The free folk are like a 19th century historian's enthusiastic idea about late antiquity/early medieval clanspeople. In fact I was glad GRRM could refrain from having Mance being carried around on a shield ;) Couldn't resist the raven winged helmet, and the spearwives are a nod to Tacitus, I guess, but who cares, it's great all the same. Who else has a textbook early medieval warrior king who is also actively concerned with society's restrains on his individualty and personal freedom? :) It's just plain badass. On the other side of the Wall, though, Jon is actually busy turning a rotten late medieval society into a modern, rational, disciplined society. Thus enter of the banker dude. And then Jon goes and takes away the golden, rune-inscripted, magically and romantically charged jewelry from the free folk, and in exchange he gives them CORN. And JOBS. Yeah, it's the right thing to do, of course, but come on, it's like seeing Galadriel work as a school teacher, or Gimli as a bank clerk.

So, no, I don't want to see Jon as king (secretary) of the free folk. I want them to go down gloriously in the fight against the Others, or go back to their magical, liminal place 'beyond'. Mance won't see any of it, though, in fact I don't expect him to live through the next book. I will be damned if he doesn't die fighting and hopefully killing some Others, though, as I was really touched by the 'bitterness too deep for words'-line.

Sorry for the long post.

As for Mance kicking Jon's ass in the yard, I don't think he ever really wanted to kill Jon. He is much too experienced to forget he actually had a dagger and could have killed him, and also he seemed to have had some entertainment there. I think it was mostly a mixture of boredom, frustration with not being able to do anything useful, and maybe even a little fun in acting out the Rattleshirt-persona. Must have been nice to defeat Jon at something again, after all. I think it's the same with Tormund throwing a drinking horn at Jon (while drinking what's in it before throwing, of course): They are both pissed off by Jon, but not majorly. Both know he is the only one to save their people now, so they just need some way to let it be known they are also pissed. It's the same with Mance driving Melisandre crazy by not wearing Rattleshirt's bones, playing threateningly with daggers in front of her, but finally, when she turns out to be unimpressed, skip that part and offer to go with her when there is impending danger with the dead rangers in front of the Wall. It's the wildling way, I guess.

[Eyron]

Yes, I know what you mean. Whatever happens, I won't be too happy about it, I guess. It's GRRM. Not much counting here on Jon being Aragorn, if you get my meaning, though I hope he ends up somewhere along that line, at least.

I also think the free folk are set up a little bit like a deconstructed, anarchist, and more dangerous version of Tolkien's elves and dwarves (yeah, I know, but hear me out now!), because all their chapters are already lined with a sense of loss and doom. We have Ygritte dreaming about her little castle, for example, when we can be sure she is going to die soon. Then we see the last of the giants, have all those songs about death and decline, see all those scared and lost people in the prologue, we have impending doom at Hardhome, we have wildlings being sold into slavery...

In fact, they are a people that have mostly been living in the past, dwelling on their stories and boasting about great deeds (like Tormund Talltalker), in hostile territory at that, and Mance's hope to secure a future for them while not giving up their freedom was shattered by Stannis. All their great songs and stories deal with loss and failed attempts like this, like Gendel's children or Bael the Bard, and their personal histories are also sad, like Varamyr's. I don't see any place for the free folk in a world of realpolitik, they only work in a romantic place like the lands beyond the Wall, which is, from a narrative point of view, also a liminal place in essence: We only get to see it in extremes, like it's extremely cold and bleak, but also extremely beautiful. But also it works only in narrative extremes: Either there are no wildlings at all to be seen, or a host of 40 000. You don't get any status quo there, from a narrative POV, it's all about going in there in order to get out again. You can't build up a kingdom there, you can barely imagine living there on a daily basis, and Mance's kingship was therefore centered in his person and in his scenes and stories. Now you can't just extract those liminal people and their liminal king and put them into a feudal society, however much reformed, without taking away these traits. This is why I think they are doomed anyway, and will either die in great numbers in the fight against the Others, or stop being what they were and come to terms with realpolitik (bank accounts and gratis toasters included).

The free folk are like a 19th century historian's enthusiastic idea about late antiquity/early medieval clanspeople. In fact I was glad GRRM could refrain from having Mance being carried around on a shield ;) Couldn't resist the raven winged helmet, and the spearwives are a nod to Tacitus, I guess, but who cares, it's great all the same. Who else has a textbook early medieval warrior king who is also actively concerned with society's restrains on his individualty and personal freedom? :) It's just plain badass. On the other side of the Wall, though, Jon is actually busy turning a rotten late medieval society into a modern, rational, disciplined society. Thus enter of the banker dude. And then Jon goes and takes away the golden, rune-inscripted, magically and romantically charged jewelry from the free folk, and in exchange he gives them CORN. And JOBS. Yeah, it's the right thing to do, of course, but come on, it's like seeing Galadriel work as a school teacher, or Gimli as a bank clerk.

So, no, I don't want to see Jon as king (secretary) of the free folk. I want them to go down gloriously in the fight against the Others, or go back to their magical, liminal place 'beyond'. Mance won't see any of it, though, in fact I don't expect him to live through the next book. I will be damned if he doesn't die fighting and hopefully killing some Others, though, as I was really touched by the 'bitterness too deep for words'-line.

Sorry for the long post.

As for Mance kicking Jon's ass in the yard, I don't think he ever really wanted to kill Jon. He is much too experienced to forget he actually had a dagger and could have killed him, and also he seemed to have had some entertainment there. I think it was mostly a mixture of boredom, frustration with not being able to do anything useful, and maybe even a little fun in acting out the Rattleshirt-persona. Must have been nice to defeat Jon at something again, after all. I think it's the same with Tormund throwing a drinking horn at Jon (while drinking what's in it before throwing, of course): They are both pissed off by Jon, but not majorly. Both know he is the only one to save their people now, so they just need some way to let it be known they are also pissed. It's the same with Mance driving Melisandre crazy by not wearing Rattleshirt's bones, playing threateningly with daggers in front of her, but finally, when she turns out to be unimpressed, skip that part and offer to go with her when there is impending danger with the dead rangers in front of the Wall. It's the wildling way, I guess.

Wow, this is exactly the kind of thoughts I'm suppressing as hard as I can. :crying:

I wonder if I will enjoy the next books... Makes me kind of wish the Others would just get on with it so we get some rest!

On a happier note (well, comparatively speaking) I long for the battles that will come, and some revenge to be served. I really hope GRRM does not steal that away from us completely!

Think the wildlings will form the van if it comes to ground battle face-to-face? Of course they will, they are too proud not too. So they will surely fall by great numbers. I really hope there will be songs about them. Jon seriously needs to learn some instrument, and to sing.

I think many wildlings will return north after the battles are done, just because they can't function in the south, some will remain on the wall and some will resettle the gift. As diverse a population as they are such will be their fates as well.

I was so sad about the Hardhome rescue failure, I had such high hopes for that, but silly me - again! I wonder what will become of them, if the wildlings at the wall will follow through and get some of them out, or if it's up in the air after what happened to Jon. I have a suspicion that our guys will be drawn out to a regular ground battle north of the wall, what do you think?

[fassreiter]

Wow, this is exactly the kind of thoughts I'm suppressing as hard as I can. :crying:

I wonder if I will enjoy the next books... Makes me kind of wish the Others would just get on with it so we get some rest!

On a happier note (well, comparatively speaking) I long for the battles that will come, and some revenge to be served. I really hope GRRM does not steal that away from us completely!

Think the wildlings will form the van if it comes to ground battle face-to-face? Of course they will, they are too proud not too. So they will surely fall by great numbers. I really hope there will be songs about them. Jon seriously needs to learn some instrument, and to sing.

I think many wildlings will return north after the battles are done, just because they can't function in the south, some will remain on the wall and some will resettle the gift. As diverse a population as they are such will be their fates as well.

I was so sad about the Hardhome rescue failure, I had such high hopes for that, but silly me - again! I wonder what will become of them, if the wildlings at the wall will follow through and get some of them out, or if it's up in the air after what happened to Jon. I have a suspicion that our guys will be drawn out to a regular ground battle north of the wall, what do you think?

I agree to what you say. Yes, revenge, if nothing else! At least the next books will include many and more battles, the North at least gets the one for Winterfell and the one against the Others, and who knows what else. I guess you are also right about the wildlings' many different fates. Well, maybe that is a helpful thought. Or maybe they all just die. These book are depressing! :(

Yeah, about those songs: When Jon invents the public schools for all of Westeros, he might do some music classes ;)

I really have no idea what happens after Jon's 'death'. If the hardhome mission fails, there should be a lot of wights coming down on the Wall soon. I would hate for them to die only as a plot device, though. I also have no idea if there is anything in the crypts of Winterfell. We already have too many magic horns, I doubt there is another one. As for a dragon - that would be really strange. So I don't know how GRRM can make the Wall fall, or if he intends to go this way at all. So maybe there will be a fight north of the Wall, or on the Wall. Remember those spider thingies Old Nan spoke of? I hope the Wall will fall either way in the end, and there will be giants and mammoths to fight for the North and the free folk. 'The fury of the wild' again, please. Mance already did a great reenactment of the march on Helm's Deep in ASOS, I hope this time he can make the Others think twice about attacking his people again. But most likely not :(

And talking about that, now that I have been through all that depressing stuff today, and free people losing their freedom and whatever, I am suddenly starting to get seriously worried about all that cage symbolism with Mance, so maybe you were right after all. I mean, what was all that about in Jon 3, why not just tie him to a stake like all the other R'hllor victims and be done with it?

Maybe I should just hope the Others come and clean up the whole North, and switch my loyalty to Dorne or some uninteresting people. While I'm at it: I also guess Bowen Marsh is going to burn down the shieldhall after killing Jon as part of his wonderful plan of rescuing his stupid NW, thereby preventing the Hardhome mission and getting wights upon wights down on him, destroying the NW and sweeping down on Winterfell. This day gets better and better...

As for happy endings: I really hope either Jon or Davos survives the series, I don't have any hopes for most of my other favourites. And if anyone gets to be the Hand of King Jon, it's Davos, please. Right? He will be important for the Rickon-being-restored-to-Winterfell-plot, so he deserves that much. Oh, and Jon should marry Val and get Mance's kid back for adoption and give him a proper name at least. I don't want him to be named after a Targaryen, and I surely don't want him to be raised by that douche of a Tarly dad. If the Others could please kill that one, that would be nice!

[LadyMary]

Re: Fassreiter

I agree that Mance is a great character, and I assure you that I would like to see him restored to his glorious badass self!

The reason he's left out a bit in my theory of the future is

I have a bad feeling about what's happened to him in Winterfell. Either he is under torture from Ramsay, with little hope of getting out alive or in any good shape, or he has turned on Jon. Maybe he supplied Ramsay with the information that was in the letter... I really hope not, but as I said I'm really worried. I'm not completely sure Mance is on team Jon, he was "burned" and Jon didn't stop Stannis from doing it.

It also looks like Mance is on some other mission in Winterfell. He and the spearwives didn't exactly hurry to the rescue of Arya/Jeyne, they let her be raped multiple times before doing anything and seemed to be more interested in the crypts.

Mance has been there before, not too long ago, maybe he hid something in the crypts or knows something about them. What he knows he has kept from Jon, and that puzzles me.

I have a different take on what happened with Mance.

At one point Reek/Theon figures out that Mance and the Spearwives are hitting him up for information about how he took Winterfell in the first place, not because they want to kick him while he's down (well, not only fo that reason anyway), but because they're trying to figure out how to get themselves out. They were essentially stuck inside a well-guarded fortress and needed to figure out how to slip "Arya" out without being seen or heard. It would have been easier for Mance and the Spearwives to abandon JeyneArya and Theon if they had turned on Jon and just slipped away. They were able to fool the masses within Winterfell with their mummery so they could have kept going south and left it all behind them, or crept back North to rally the wildlings on the South side of the Wall, but they didn't. whatever Mance may think of Jon personally, I think he's probably concluded by that point that the Boltons are worse, for all the Northmen and he's better off with Wilding/Night's Watch allies than the uncertain loyalties of the Northmen within the Walls of Wintefell.

My guess is the Boltons captured at least one of the Spearwives if not Mance himself, and under torture she/they spilled whatever information they had about Stannis, the sword, Selyse/Shireen/Melisandre and Jon's plot to rescue Arya - details that ended up in Ramsay's letter. I wouldn't call that turning on Jon so much as giving up information under torture, and we don't know all the details of what happened to Mance and the remaining Spearwives after "Reek" and "Arya" escaped. It's likely that Ramsay's letter contains some falsehood. He claims that Stannis is dead but doesn't know the whereabouts of "Reek" and "my bride", which means that he assumes Jon arranged for Arya to go directly to the Wall and that Jon now has them.

.

Fassreiter, your whole post is great but I wanted to comment on this:

As for Mance kicking Jon's ass in the yard, I don't think he ever really wanted to kill Jon. He is much too experienced to forget he actually had a dagger and could have killed him, and also he seemed to have had some entertainment there. I think it was mostly a mixture of boredom, frustration with not being able to do anything useful, and maybe even a little fun in acting out the Rattleshirt-persona. Must have been nice to defeat Jon at something again, after all. I think it's the same with Tormund throwing a drinking horn at Jon (while drinking what's in it before throwing, of course): They are both pissed off by Jon, but not majorly. Both know he is the only one to save their people now, so they just need some way to let it be known they are also pissed. It's the same with Mance driving Melisandre crazy by not wearing Rattleshirt's bones, playing threateningly with daggers in front of her, but finally, when she turns out to be unimpressed, skip that part and offer to go with her when there is impending danger with the dead rangers in front of the Wall. It's the wildling way, I guess.

Mance has cause to distrust Jon for his turncloak-ery and the loss of life caused to the free folk in the process. Then again, Mance is also turncloak as well so and if anyone should look at the big picture and see why truce and alliance is better than ongoing and futile battle and a fate worse than death, he is. I think their dynamic is one of grudging respect. Mance is older, stronger and more seasoned which is how he managed to become King beyond the Wall.

Beating Jon bloody in the practice yard really emphasized how capable he was at taking down Jon he wanted to. He doesn't of course, because he's not stupid and is surrounded by other guards, and also because he doesn't have to completely destroy Jon to make his point. Jon got it perfectly.

Mance surrendered because the lives of his people having to live under Kneelers was preferable to the unwinnable war against cold, evil death that no men could forestall for long. At least the free folk have their lives. This is why Jon respects Mance. He's got a nobility of spirit and honor. Thormund is another, maybe not as noble as Mance, but honorable and pragmatic enough to see the writing on the Wall ...so to speak. :) Apart from the posturing during their negotiations, Thormund likes and respects Jon and I think trusts him enough to take the risk of surrender.

[Eyron]

I agree to what you say. Yes, revenge, if nothing else! At least the next books will include many and more battles, the North at least gets the one for Winterfell and the one against the Others, and who knows what else. I guess you are also right about the wildlings' many different fates. Well, maybe that is a helpful thought. Or maybe they all just die. These book are depressing! :(

Yeah, about those songs: When Jon invents the public schools for all of Westeros, he might do some music classes ;)

I really have no idea what happens after Jon's 'death'. If the hardhome mission fails, there should be a lot of wights coming down on the Wall soon. I would hate for them to die only as a plot device, though. I also have no idea if there is anything in the crypts of Winterfell. We already have too many magic horns, I doubt there is another one. As for a dragon - that would be really strange. So I don't know how GRRM can make the Wall fall, or if he intends to go this way at all. So maybe there will be a fight north of the Wall, or on the Wall. Remember those spider thingies Old Nan spoke of? I hope the Wall will fall either way in the end, and there will be giants and mammoths to fight for the North and the free folk. 'The fury of the wild' again, please. Mance already did a great reenactment of the march on Helm's Deep in ASOS, I hope this time he can make the Others think twice about attacking his people again. But most likely not :(

And talking about that, now that I have been through all that depressing stuff today, and free people losing their freedom and whatever, I am suddenly starting to get seriously worried about all that cage symbolism with Mance, so maybe you were right after all. I mean, what was all that about in Jon 3, why not just tie him to a stake like all the other R'hllor victims and be done with it? I promise though, if GRRM is just trying to be clever with something like foreshadowing and metaphors, and Ramsay's letter is true, he can wait for me to get my very own wildling army with wargs and mammoths, and march onto his lawn.

Nah, just kidding :(

Maybe I should just hope the Others come and clean up the whole North, and switch my loyalty to Dorne or some uninteresting people. While I'm at it: I also guess Bowen Marsh is going to burn down the shieldhall after killing Jon as part of his wonderful plan of rescuing his stupid NW, thereby preventing the Hardhome mission and getting wights upon wights down on him, destroying the NW and sweeping down on Winterfell. This day gets better and better...

As for happy endings: I really hope either Jon or Davos survives the series, I don't have any hopes for most of my other favourites. And if anyone gets to be the Hand of King Jon, it's Davos, please. Right? He will be important for the Rickon-being-restored-to-Winterfell-plot, so he deserves that much. Oh, and Jon should marry Val and get Mance's kid back for adoption and give him a proper name at least. I don't want him to be named after a Targaryen, and I surely don't want him to be raised by that douche of a Tarly dad. If the Others could please kill that one, that would be nice!

I have always felt that everything happening south of Winterfell was a mere distraction from the real story, and that all the travelogue was rather painfully keeping me from the Wall and the goings on there. So for all gods sake lets hope the Others don't sweep the north and leave us with the frakking Freys, Tyrells, Tarlys, Martells, the bloody Lannisters and... Dany.

The shieldhall, yeah it was one of my first predictions too, I thought how the flying #¤% do the NW think they will get away with this without being slaughtered by Thormund and the bunch? And it hit me, they will close the doors and torch the place, with all the drunk wildlings inside. Clever little traitors... They will pay the prise soon enough though. I was really sad to see the giants and mammoths leave for Eastwatch. Poor guys, didn't fit the hole in the wall. So maybe Wun wun will be the last after all...

Davos would make an excellent hand of the king, again. I'm not especially fond of Stannis (what with the burning people alive and putting his faith with Melisandre, burning weirwoods and that sort of things) but him trusting and raising Davos to Hand was a great act.

I hope we get to go to Skagos with him, I would like to "see" those goat-ish unicorns. I would like to see him, Osha, Rickon, Shaggydog and a band of some thousands Skaggs ashore and marching for Winterfell. They should be able to handle a little snow don't you think?

Just put on some skies and keep moving to stay warm. I know, I've done it many times in some serious cold. You don't even need so many layers of clothes on if you just keep moving, I haven't spent the nights outside in the snow but built many "snow-caves" and that will keep you warm enough, just don't forget to keep you air-holes free from snow :)

I'm somewhat tired of the all the magical thingies that are spoken of here and there, all the time! So for me, no more horns and swords and prophecies thank you GRRM. If one or two eventually turn up - good - but that'll do. I'll even pass on the dragons but they are there so we should make good use of them at least - meaning NOT flying around over Essos eating sheep and burning brick buildings.

Weirdly one of my biggest hopes for Jon is that he and Sam meet up again. I'm not much of a romantic, but I'll give him that at least. They were a perfect duo, and None of them really have any other friends. I can see them sharing a bottle of whiskey and discussing their old girlfriends (one each), enemies and battles... :cheers:

Mances little boy should be named Bael the monster

[Lord Damian]

Jon would not need go south. while this winter is taking its course, No - opposing army is going up the Neck unless led by that Dothraki slut herself - Dany.

[fassreiter]

I have always felt that everything happening south of Winterfell was a mere distraction from the real story, and that all the travelogue was rather painfully keeping me from the Wall and the goings on there. So for all gods sake lets hope the Others don't sweep the north and leave us with the frakking Freys, Tyrells, Tarlys, Martells, the bloody Lannisters and... Dany.

The shieldhall, yeah it was one of my first predictions too, I thought how the flying #¤% do the NW think they will get away with this without being slaughtered by Thormund and the bunch? And it hit me, they will close the doors and torch the place, with all the drunk wildlings inside. Clever little traitors... They will pay the prise soon enough though. I was really sad to see the giants and mammoths leave for Eastwatch. Poor guys, didn't fit the hole in the wall. So maybe Wun wun will be the last after all...

Davos would make an excellent hand of the king, again. I'm not especially fond of Stannis (what with the burning people alive and putting his faith with Melisandre, burning weirwoods and that sort of things) but him trusting and raising Davos to Hand was a great act.

I hope we get to go to Skagos with him, I would like to "see" those goat-ish unicorns. I would like to see him, Osha, Rickon, Shaggydog and a band of some thousands Skaggs ashore and marching for Winterfell. They should be able to handle a little snow don't you think?

Just put on some skies and keep moving to stay warm. I know, I've done it many times in some serious cold. You don't even need so many layers of clothes on if you just keep moving, I haven't spent the nights outside in the snow but built many "snow-caves" and that will keep you warm enough, just don't forget to keep you air-holes free from snow :)

I'm somewhat tired of the all the magical thingies that are spoken of here and there, all the time! So for me, no more horns and swords and prophecies thank you GRRM. If one or two eventually turn up - good - but that'll do. I'll even pass on the dragons but they are there so we should make good use of them at least - meaning NOT flying around over Essos eating sheep and burning brick buildings.

Weirdly one of my biggest hopes for Jon is that he and Sam meet up again. I'm not much of a romantic, but I'll give him that at least. They were a perfect duo, and None of them really have any other friends. I can see them sharing a bottle of whiskey and discussing their old girlfriends (one each), enemies and battles... :cheers:

Mances little boy should be named Bael the monster

:agree:

Amen to all of that.

Probably everything in the next books will be like my personal red wedding all over again (like on the day I bought ADWD, skipped right through it to 'Mance's' execution, felt a bit like having died, and then realized the bus I was sitting in on the way to the airport had got stuck in the traffic and I would not catch my flight, having absolutely no money, being far, far from home and my phone had stopped working - I still count these minutes among the most miserable of my life), but still, some things could turn out nice. Jon and Sam having a badass drinking session and talking it all over (hobbit style) is one of them. (Turned out, I did catch my flight after all because it was late anyway and GRRM rewarded me for not throwing the book right out of the bus with his little Melisandre-miracle, which I found after some more skipping, so all was well when I came home. Maybe there is still hope!).

I would go with Bael the Battleborn, though :)

[Eyron]

I have a different take on what happened with Mance.

At one point Reek/Theon figures out that Mance and the Spearwives are hitting him up for information about how he took Winterfell in the first place, not because they want to kick him while he's down (well, not only fo that reason anyway), but because they're trying to figure out how to get themselves out. They were essentially stuck inside a well-guarded fortress and needed to figure out how to slip "Arya" out without being seen or heard. It would have been easier for Mance and the Spearwives to abandon JeyneArya and Theon if they had turned on Jon and just slipped away. They were able to fool the masses within Winterfell with their mummery so they could have kept going south and left it all behind them, or crept back North to rally the wildlings on the South side of the Wall, but they didn't. whatever Mance may think of Jon personally, I think he's probably concluded by that point that the Boltons are worse, for all the Northmen and he's better off with Wilding/Night's Watch allies than the uncertain loyalties of the Northmen within the Walls of Wintefell. My guess is the Boltons captured at least one of the Spearwives if not Mance himself, and under torture she/they spilled whatever information they had about Stannis, the sword, Selyse/Shireen/Melisandre and Jon's plot to rescue Arya - details that ended up in Ramsay's letter. I wouldn't call that turning on Jon so much as giving up information under torture, and we don't know all the details of what happened to Mance and the remaining Spearwives after "Reek" and "Arya" escaped. It's likely that Ramsay's letter contains some falsehood. He claims that Stannis is dead but doesn't know the whereabouts of "Reek" and "my bride", which means that he assumes Jon arranged for Arya to go directly to the Wall and that Jon now has them.

. Eira, your whole post is great but I wanted to comment on this:

As for Mance kicking Jon's ass in the yard, I don't think he ever really wanted to kill Jon. He is much too experienced to forget he actually had a dagger and could have killed him, and also he seemed to have had some entertainment there. I think it was mostly a mixture of boredom, frustration with not being able to do anything useful, and maybe even a little fun in acting out the Rattleshirt-persona. Must have been nice to defeat Jon at something again, after all. I think it's the same with Tormund throwing a drinking horn at Jon (while drinking what's in it before throwing, of course): They are both pissed off by Jon, but not majorly. Both know he is the only one to save their people now, so they just need some way to let it be known they are also pissed. It's the same with Mance driving Melisandre crazy by not wearing Rattleshirt's bones, playing threateningly with daggers in front of her, but finally, when she turns out to be unimpressed, skip that part and offer to go with her when there is impending danger with the dead rangers in front of the Wall. It's the wildling way, I guess.

Mance has cause to distrust Jon for his turncloak-ery and the loss of life caused to the free folk in the process. Then again, Mance is also turncloak as well so and if anyone should look at the big picture and see why truce and alliance is better than ongoing and futile battle and a fate worse than death, he is. I think their dynamic is one of grudging respect. Mance is older, stronger and more seasoned which is how he managed to become King beyond the Wall.

Beating Jon bloody in the practice yard really emphasized how capable he was at taking down Jon he wanted to. He doesn't of course, because he's not stupid and is surrounded by other guards, and also because he doesn't have to completely destroy Jon to make his point. Jon got it perfectly. Mance surrendered because the lives of his people having to live under Kneelers was preferable to the unwinnable war against cold, evil death that no men could forestall for long. At least the free folk have their lives. This is why Jon respects Mance. He's got a nobility of spirit and honor. Thormund is another, maybe not as noble as Mance, but honorable and pragmatic enough to see the writing on the Wall ...so to speak. :) Apart from the posturing during their negotiations, Thormund likes and respects Jon and I think trusts him enough to take the risk of surrender.

I agree on all accounts, but that third spoiler tab in your post was actually not mine but Fassreiters, I'm not sure if you thought that I wrote it.

There were some very good points in that paragraph.

Both Mance and Thormund are likely to be a bit frustrated, and depressed, for good reason. I agree with what you said about them seeing the need for truce and alliances for the better of their people.

I think they respect Jon because they see that he is pragmatic too, he does not bend to the rules so easily, and is not afraid to do what it takes if necessary, even slights to his honour. In this respect I think his turncloakery has benefited him actually.

I have surrendered completely to the idea that Mance has not turned on Jon, or at least that he didn't tell Ramsay the facts about the wall freely (in fact I think that GRRM set me up to these unholy ideas!), but I'm always going to be suspicious, it's in my nature ;-)

But it's much more believable that one of the spearwives uttered these things under torture (I can't believe I actually wrote that! Shame on me)

I would rather want that Ramsay had some spy on the Wall (a fly on the wall? te hee), so we don't have to put the blame to the ladies!

My thoughts on that fight was also that it was some kind of show-down for Mance, that he needed to confirm to himself that he was still the best fighter around and after that he could choose on his own terms and accept Jon to take the command from now on. And that he wanted to know what stuff Jon was made of.

I really love Thormund, I would like to go to his parties! My kind of folk he is

Edit: Ah I read to fast, of course you saw that it was Fassreiters paragraph!

[Eyron]

Fassreiter: You dare skip in these books!?!

That makes me feel like a stupid, law-abiding little girl... I'm chocked. I dutifully plough through the endless rants on peoples colours of mustasches, embroidered tunics, breast-plate nipples (!), thousands of descriptions of gauntlets, pillars, roof-thatching and walking, riding, going down rivers and on and on... And feel so very deserving when for four pages there is finally some action!

I am leal to a fault. I dare not skip

[fassreiter]

Fassreiter: You dare skip in these books!?!

That makes me feel like a stupid, law-abiding little girl... I'm chocked. I dutifully plough through the endless rants on peoples colours of mustasches, embroidered tunics, breast-plate nipples (!), thousands of descriptions of gauntlets, pillars, roof-thatching and walking, riding, going down rivers and on and on... And feel so very deserving when for four pages there is finally some action!

I am leal to a fault. I dare not skip

Yes, that was a bad thing to do. I was desperate. And see where it got me, I was ready to look for some nice bridge under which to spend the rest of my miserable life.

I did my dutiful ploughing later, though :)

[Ghost Rider]

Mance has cause to distrust Jon for his turncloakery and the loss of life caused to the free folk in the process.

Just a few remarks... I've seen that opinion coming up several times in the thread. But why would Mance have any reasons to see Jon as a turncloak? He hasn't ever been one and Mance knows it too! He only pretended to have turned (pretty badly, btw, I think Mance could see right through him, but decided to let it go for the moment).

The Wildlings he was with also weren't really convinced that he had turned. He was only able to give them the slip by the intervention of deus ex summer. Yes, it caused some loss of life, but for Jon they were the enemy back then and rightly so. They tried to kill him too after all. (btw, I think the assault on the Wall was planned rather badly.)

The free folk ... I feel they are rather romanticized here by some. They have a concept of "freedom" based on the right of the strongest. And that's where "total freedom" usually leads to. Strong, powerful people take it all and give a shit about the weaker ones, even blame their weakness for their sorrows. Powerful people don't need laws, they would feel restricted by them. We see exactly that in the case of one Varamyr! That guy breaks every rule, exploits weaker human beings and isn't punished in the least for it.

[brashcandy]

Just a few remarks... I've seen that opinion coming up several times in the thread. But why would Mance have any reasons to see Jon as a turncloak? He hasn't ever been one and Mance knows it too! He only pretended to have turned (pretty badly, btw, I think Mance could see right through him, but decided to let it go for the moment).

The Wildlings he was with also weren't really convinced that he had turned. He was only able to give them the slip by the intervention of deus ex summer. Yes, it caused some loss of life, but for Jon they were the enemy back then and rightly so. They tried to kill him too after all. (btw, I think the assault on the Wall was planned rather badly.)

The free folk ... I feel they are rather romanticized here by some. They have a concept of "freedom" based on the right of the strongest. And that's where "total freedom" usually leads to. Strong, powerful people take it all and give a shit about the weaker ones, even blame their weakness for their sorrows. Powerful people don't need laws, they would feel restricted by them. We see exactly that in the case of one Varamyr! That guy breaks every rule, exploits weaker human beings and isn't punished in the least for it.

That's the thing. Whilst the "free folk" way of living might sound cool and romantic in a sense of living life on your own terms and not being accountable, they had some pretty unfair practices in place (carrying off women) and the whole follow the strong thing is great, except, as you indicated, it can lead to injustices being perpetrated against the weak. So whilst I admire their refusal to see anyone as possessing some absolute right to rule, I do think they needed to benefit from inclusion in a society where there are certain rules concerning behaviour, justice and code of conduct.