Jon Snow’s (possible) reign

[Eyron]

I am a strong believer in the R+L=J but can appreciate

which is an awesome way to pass the time.. and in the back and forth on this thread and the is Arthur Dayne Aegon's father theory..( I don't think he is but as you said it's interesting to try fleshing out another theory) but the point Brashcandy stated made me question if Arthur Dayne might not just pop up as alive later in the series.. having been in on the R+L=J and agreed to give Ned The Sword of the Morning to bring back to Starfall so his death would be ever so convincing.. ? Any thoughts on this and how he might come into the story?

I have thought about if Dayne was alive or not, but I haven't figured out who he could be (if he's any of the characters we met already).

We really don't have much to go on in his case, not a proper description or even an age.

I have a vague idea that Marwyn actually is someone we should know from before, but he does not fit with my mental (but very fuzzy) picture of Dayne...

Edit: But there is also very vivid pictures from Neds memories about their fight. But then again: Neds memorys didn't reveal Jons mother either so...

[Tagganaro]

Gods. You guys realize at all that there is a fundamental difference between being King in the North and King of the Wildlings??? One of them is the small matter of your kingship being supported by a feudal system - or not. Can't have both, and you can't have both of it in your heart. Jon is Ned's son, one way or another. Under him, the free folk would be nothing but another bunch of kneelers in no time, paying taxes, paying tribute and having laws and lords, freedom be damned.

Huh? That's what OR generally indicates. That there's a difference between the two.

Plus, you're forgetting that in Jon's case this is quite different. The Free Folk know Jon, they've lived with him, and they respect him. And what do you know? The free folk follow the man and not the name.

Several of them already unneccesarily swore vows to Jon upon coming through the gate.

It's entirely possible that the free folk would still decide to follow Jon even if he was named a King of some sort.

I'd imagine it would all be possible, dependent on whether

Jon could beat Mance in a sword duel and revenge the practice yard duel between them

That's why I said Jon could become King of the Wildlings (meaning he doesn't get the North given to him at least but might still try and take it) or King in the North (with the Wildlings falling in behind him).

[Geddus]

Robert would have accused Benjen of treason had he discovered Benjen's role in Lyanna's elopement, so in order to protect him Ned advises him to take the black so that Robert will not be able to touch him.

I don't think it holds, Robert couldn't have accused Benjen of treason by any stretch. I know he hated Rhaegar, but he wouldn't have murdered his best friend's brother over something like that.

However, this is not necessary, Benjen could have taken the black simply because he felt guilty about his role in Lyanna's "kidnapping" - in fact, I believe this is what happened, I can't find any believable reasons other than that for him to join the NW.

I think Doran will support Jon, because despite Rhaegar's involvement with Lyanna he is still a Targ loyalist for some reason.

What do you mean "for some reason"? His grandsons were Targaryens.

Actually, it looks like one of them still is.

[Hellebore]

I have thought about if Dayne was alive or not, but I haven't figured out who he could be (if he's any of the characters we met already).

We really don't have much to go on in his case, not a proper description or even an age.

I have a vague idea that Marwyn actually is someone we should know from before, but he does not fit with my mental (but very fuzzy) picture of Dayne...

Edit: But there is also very vivid pictures from Neds memories about their fight. But then again: Neds memorys didn't reveal Jons mother either so...

I agree that Marwyn is someone important, whether he's someone we've heard of before going by another name or just a future character that we will hear more of is hard to say.. I don't think we've met Dayne yet in the books..but I'll be more certain after a re-read.. lol

[Eyron]

...

And BTW as to one of my favorite characters possible reign ... I think he will continue on to Winterfell as was planned hopefully with Tormund and the wildings help.. I hope that his story archs into him coming into power in some way (I would really like him to be one of the heads of the dragon, tPtwP/AA Reborn..) and I want him to destroy the Boltons! The Freys I think will be dealt with by BWB/Lady Stoneheart as she will seek them out with a vengence for the Red Wedding..

And as to the person sneeking around Winterfell .. (I don't have my copy of aDwD with me right now) but I thought the Boltons made use of the killings to kill a few extra unwanted individuals.. are there any other signs that point to it maybe being someone else (because if it was Benjen that would be amazing)

Yeah the Boltons need to be served some justice ASAP! This is my hope to, that somehow Jon gets on his feet and go to Winterfell, but even if he has other "duties to tend to", Northmen will see to the Boltons somehow. And that will happen soon (well, not soon in real-time... but in the time-line of the books).

You really should check out the threads about

"The ghost in Winterfell" and "The hooded man in Winterfell" (not sure if that is the exact topic names, but search and you will find!

There are some WILD speculation on who it can be... Very entertaining too, but my head hurts when I try and figure it all out with so little to go on :idea:

[Hellebore]

Yeah the Boltons need to be served some justice ASAP! This is my hope to, that somehow Jon gets on his feet and go to Winterfell, but even if he has other "duties to tend to", Northmen will see to the Boltons somehow. And that will happen soon (well, not soon in real-time... but in the time-line of the books).

You really should check out the threads about

"The ghost in Winterfell" and "The hooded man in Winterfell" (not sure if that is the exact topic names, but search and you will find!

There are some WILD speculation on who it can be... Very entertaining too, but my head hurts when I try and figure it all out with so little to go on :idea:

Thank you so much Eira!! I'm new to the boards and there are just soo many threads that trying to find one is hard.. But as soon as I read the names of the threads you mentioned I was so excited.. I'm at work and now my day will go by much faster with some new theories to read!! but my search funtion won't work .. I thought it was because the board is in "performance mode".. Does your search work?.. and if not do you know generally where to look, is it in the general aSoIaF or aDwD portion of the board..? :drool:

EDIT: Found them Eira, Thanks for pointing them out!

[kephv]

I agree that Marwyn is someone important, whether he's someone we've heard of before going by another name or just a future character that we will hear more of is hard to say.. I don't think we've met Dayne yet in the books..but I'll be more certain after a re-read.. lol

Well we have heard of him before. He was first mentioned in AGoT as the one who tought Mirri Maz Duur healing. Qyburn also mentioned him in ASoS.

[Hellebore]

Good to know! I started the series after watching HBO's AGoT, and couldn't wait to find out what happened next so I jumped to ACoK and read right through the series so now I'm reading AGoT.. and I didn't expect Marwyn to be in this book so I'll keep watch for that! .. So what do you think about him ManyFacedOne?.. is he Marwyn and not someone in hiding or is there room for possibilities of him being someone in hiding or someone we've heard of?

I personally think that Alleras being in hiding in Oldtown is enough.. and Marwyn is very interesting on his own, without being someone in hiding..

[Galen M]

His grandsons were Targaryens.

Actually, it looks like one of them still is.

Doran? You mean his niece and nephew, not his grandchildren. Doran has no grandchildren, Elia was his sister, not daughter.

[kephv]

So what do you think about him ManyFacedOne?.. is he Marwyn and not someone in hiding or is there room for possibilities of him being someone in hiding or someone we've heard of?

I think there's obviously a whole lot more to him than AFfC showed (what are his real goals? what's he really after? etc...). Other than that, I think he's who he says he is, that is, a maester trained at the citadel though he has his own view of the world that doesn't quite match up with theirs.

[Shaggydog Stark]

@ Eira and Brash,

Damn I missed all the fun last night, and was running errands all day today! I come back and this has become a hot topic :).

I don't think it holds, Robert couldn't have accused Benjen of treason by any stretch. I know he hated Rhaegar, but he wouldn't have murdered his best friend's brother over something like that.

However, this is not necessary, Benjen could have taken the black simply because he felt guilty about his role in Lyanna's "kidnapping" - in fact, I believe this is what happened, I can't find any believable reasons other than that for him to join the NW.

What do you mean "for some reason"? His grandsons were Targaryens.

Actually, it looks like one of them still is.

Actually, I think you are right and that was the the reason Benjen joined the NW. I had forgotten, anyway the whole theory is in the R+L=J thread, if you want to have a look at it.

As Galen M has pointed out his niece and nephew were Targaryens. The reason I am surprised Doran is still a Targ loyalist is because, Rhaegar set Doran's sister aside for Lyanna. It's is natural that the Martells would have been upset.

However, we discover in ADwD that Doran wanted to marry Arriane to Viserys. When Viserys died he wanted Dany to marry Quenton. This is before he finds out that Aegon is alive.

[brashcandy]

Yeah, exactly. Only thing is: they would still stop being wildlings then, and become de facto kneelers. Sad enough. But If anyone of you imagines Jon as King of the Wildlings living in a tent beyond the Wall with sexy Val and funny Tormund, having music sessions and being a free ruler over a free people: forget it.

I think Melisandre was right when she said the free folk was a doomed people. They will be assimilated into the realm sooner or later, I guess this is true, but they won't have Jon as their private wildling king then, that's ridiculous. Most likely they will have Jon (or some Stark) as King in the North ruling over them, but not exclusively.

By the way, the wildlings still have a king, and if no one noticed, Mance has already declared not only to fight for Jon, but to give counsel, too, which is in essence the classic medieval declaration of fealty minus the kneeling, and much more than any of the wildlings promised Jon. If he is alive, he will lead the wildlings in the fight against the Others for Jon. After he dies, the surviving wildlings will become a kneeler people, each of them getting his own account at the Iron Bank of Bravos and looking forward to getting gratis toasters at the end of the year, and I will be glad Mance won't live to see that.

The way I see it is that we don't have to think of them as a "doomed" people. I think Martin is trying to show that this artificial division between "us" and "them" was always destined to end. The wildlings were never the enemy- and neither was the Night's Watch. Plus, kneeling is not simply symbolic - it implies absolute loyalty to a king. This is why institutions such as the Kingsguard have become so corrupt. The wildlings will support a leader if they are strong and possess the right values, but they are not going to blindly pledge allegiance to someone.

So Mance's support of Jon is important because it signifies that they see the "rightness" of Jon's cause so to speak, not because they have made some pact to follow him.

And no, we're not imagining Jon in a tent, playing the flute with Mance :) King of the wildlings simply means that he would have a kind of grassroots support that is necessary to protect the North at the moment and would indicate - since the wildlings don't regard kingship in the traditional sense - that Jon has the credentials to be a leader, forget birthrights and decrees.

[Silverin]

As Galen M has pointed out his niece and nephew were Targaryens. The reason I am surprised Doran is still a Targ loyalist is because, Rhaegar set Doran's sister aside for Lyanna. It's is natural that the Martells would have been upset.

However, we discover in ADwD that Doran wanted to marry Arriane to Viserys. When Viserys died he wanted Dany to marry Quenton. This is before he finds out that Aegon is alive.

That is because Dorne always forgives everything for the Targs.

Look at the Young Dragon example. He tried to take Dorne a lot of people died there, they don't hold grudges against the Targs because of him. He placed a Tyrell in some power position there who the Dornish didn't liked and murdered him, and Dorne is still hating the Tyrells for that!

That is why they are not even a bit angry at Rhaegar, because he is a Targ. If Elia's husband would have been a Hightower and would do that to her, leaving her for another woman etc, you would bet they would never forgive that house and would hate them for that even after hundreds of years. But since Rhaegar the silver prince did it they are cool with it.

By the way, maybe it is because they are angrier at the Lannisters for raping and murdering her and murdering her children, and that was kind of more awful. So they are like, if they want to take revenge they rather ally with the Targs.

But honestly so far they seem really pro-Targ. So I go back to my first statment that Dorne simply never holds grudge against the Targaryen family.

The Targ-Dorne relationship reminds me of a married couple in a movie I once saw. The husband tells his friends that he is not whipped by his wife, he always does what he wants to do (he is unbent, unbowed, unbroken), then his wife calls him saying come home. Then he sais to his friends, for example now I want to go home. And he goes home.

I wonder how long the "A Targ cannot do anything to us that we cannot forgive them" policy will hold. Will they say, oh so Dany refused the ally with us, her dragon burned Quentyn, and after that Barristan (her Hand) didn'T let the Dornishmen there go home but forced them to take a dangerous mission, cool we still wait and ally with her.

[fassreiter]

The way I see it is that we don't have to think of them as a "doomed" people. I think Martin is trying to show that this artificial division between "us" and "them" was always destined to end. The wildlings were never the enemy- and neither was the Night's Watch. Plus, kneeling is not simply symbolic - it implies absolute loyalty to a king. This is why institutions such as the Kingsguard have become so corrupt. The wildlings will support a leader if they are strong and possess the right values, but they are not going to blindly pledge allegiance to someone.

So Mance's support of Jon is important because it signifies that they see the "rightness" of Jon's cause so to speak, not because they have made some pact to follow him.

And no, we're not imagining Jon in a tent, playing the flute with Mance :) King of the wildlings simply means that he would have a kind of grassroots support that is necessary to protect the North at the moment and would indicate - since the wildlings don't regard kingship in the traditional sense - that Jon has the credentials to be a leader, forget birthrights and decrees.

Yeah, I agree. But why do you need Jon as king of the wildlings if the wildlings still have Mance, who would support Jon? As has already been confirmed by Stannis as well as Jon, he is capable of binding his people to other's people's causes, if they are the right ones. Fighting the Others seems to be on both their agendas.

And I know you are not imagining Jon with Mance in a tent because in order to make Jon get the icing on the cake (besides getting to ride a dragon, getting the paperback-cover-chick, saving the world und fullfilling all the prophecies there are), namely being the badass leader of a badass people, you need Mance to either die, betray Jon or be sent into retirement by his people. That's just not fair and doesn't honour his character and his achievements so far. I had to wait almost a decade to see if he was burned alive, then I had to read not only about him being burned alive, but also go out like the biggest coward ever, and now I have to imagine him being tortured to death by the biggest psychopath this series has to offer for the next ten years, and now you go and divide his legacy like vultures over a dead body ;) Hey, have some mercy. And does Jon even know how to play a lute? :)

Besides, to me, all that wildling settlement stuff sounds suspiciously like trailer parks and selling bracelets. I really miss the lands beyond the Wall.

[Medieval Housefly]

In GoT small scenes can be very telling. I remember a scene where Jon remembers how he was playing with Rob and they were naming themselves famous knights and kings of the past. Once Jon proclaimed himself Lord to Winterfell and Rob said he could never be Lord of Winterfell.... I think he will be Lord of Winterfell at some point, and shortly after this he will be much more.

[Eyron]

@ Eira and Brash,

Damn I missed all the fun last night, and was running errands all day today! I come back and this has become a hot topic :).

Actually, I think you are right and that was the the reason Benjen joined the NW. I had forgotten, anyway the whole theory is in the R+L=J thread, if you want to have a look at it.

As Galen M has pointed out his niece and nephew were Targaryens. The reason I am surprised Doran is still a Targ loyalist is because, Rhaegar set Doran's sister aside for Lyanna. It's is natural that the Martells would have been upset.

However, we discover in ADwD that Doran wanted to marry Arriane to Viserys. When Viserys died he wanted Dany to marry Quenton. This is before he finds out that Aegon is alive.

Welcome back!

I think it's weird that Dorne seem so loyal to the targs too. But I think it's for political reasons mostly. The targs granted Dorne privileges that none of the other former kingdoms got, they are almost independent, and they can still title themselves princes and princesses. For some reason this must have had a profound lasting effect on the Dornish loyalty to the Targs.

I think this is the main reason for Doran wanting to support the Targaryens, in whatever shape or form they come. However, if Aegon turns up with the sword Blackfyre, Doran may pull his support away. The Blackfyres have no significant allegiance to Dorne.

On the other hand Young Griff seems to believe he is in fact Aegon so it's possible he will play that part in full, and respect the former alliance with Dorne, reassuring Doran thet they can keep their privileges. That why I think Doran wants to "feel" Aegon before he decides what to do.

Good to know! I started the series after watching HBO's AGoT, and couldn't wait to find out what happened next so I jumped to ACoK and read right through the series so now I'm reading AGoT.. and I didn't expect Marwyn to be in this book so I'll keep watch for that! .. So what do you think about him ManyFacedOne?.. is he Marwyn and not someone in hiding or is there room for possibilities of him being someone in hiding or someone we've heard of?

I personally think that Alleras being in hiding in Oldtown is enough.. and Marwyn is very interesting on his own, without being someone in hiding..

Marwyn is an interesting character,

I'm mostly puzzled by his appearance. He does not seem to be the regular bookish type. He looked more like a thug to Sam, short but big chest, broad shoulders, his nose had been broken more than once and he had the biggest hands Sam had ever seen. In my head I see a fighter, someone who had to work hard in heavy labour most of his life. But of course this could be glamour...

Oh BTW I'm pretty new to this board myself, and was blown away of all the threads of different topics, my search-function worked well though so that was a relief! :smug:

[kephv]

In GoT small scenes can be very telling. I remember a scene where Jon remembers how he was playing with Rob and they were naming themselves famous knights and kings of the past. Once Jon proclaimed himself Lord to Winterfell and Rob said he could never be Lord of Winterfell.... I think he will be Lord of Winterfell at some point, and shortly after this he will be much more.

It's his last chapter in ASoS actually :)

Also, he has a dream in his last (or second to last) ADwD chapter where he does the same. He proclaims he's "The lord of Winterfell" then he chops off Robb's head. I thought it was a nice call back to the scene in storm and it just goes to show that deep down he does still want it.

[Shaggydog Stark]

That is because Dorne always forgives everything for the Targs.

Look at the Young Dragon example. He tried to take Dorne a lot of people died there, they don't hold grudges against the Targs because of him. He placed a Tyrell in some power position there who the Dornish didn't liked and murdered him, and Dorne is still hating the Tyrells for that!

That is why they are not even a bit angry at Rhaegar, because he is a Targ. If Elia's husband would have been a Hightower and would do that to her, leaving her for another woman etc, you would bet they would never forgive that house and would hate them for that even after hundreds of years. But since Rhaegar the silver prince did it they are cool with it.

That's true. In AFFC, Arriane remembers the book that the Young Dragon had written, Conquest of Dorne, and that he was boastful, but still there isn't any resentment.

By the way, maybe it is because they are angrier at the Lannisters for raping and murdering her and murdering her children, and that was kind of more awful. So they are like, if they want to take revenge they rather ally with the Targs.

But honestly so far they seem really pro-Targ. So I go back to my first statment that Dorne simply never holds grudge against the Targaryen family.

Just to add a further point to your musings, I think the Martells don't have many choices to make alliances. They hate the Tyrells. The Baratheons/Starks/Arryns/Tullys were responsible for the rebellion that led to the death of their kin who were the next in the line of succession. The Lannisters are responsible for the murders. Since they have no choices, they are forced into an alliance with the Targs.

The Targ-Dorne relationship reminds me of a married couple in a movie I once saw. The husband tells his friends that he is not whipped by his wife, he always does what he wants to do (he is unbent, unbowed, unbroken), then his wife calls him saying come home. Then he sais to his friends, for example now I want to go home. And he goes home.

Spoiler

This is a good marriage lol. Yeah, I agree all alliances are really fragile right now and I think the only way to cement them is through marriage.

Welcome back!

I think it's weird that Dorne seem so loyal to the targs too. But I think it's for political reasons mostly. The targs granted Dorne privileges that none of the other former kingdoms got, they are almost independent, and they can still title themselves princes and princesses. For some reason this must have had a profound lasting effect on the Dornish loyalty to the Targs.

Hey Eira :)

Thanks!

Before I reply, I have to say I loved your post on the Lyanna/Rhaegar pillowtalk! :lmao:

You are right, the Martells were granted many priveleges which were lost after the rebellion. That must have really grated, and the chance to have one of their own on the Iron Throne.

So you think Aegon is a Blackfyre? I thought he might be Illyrio's kid.

[Eyron]

That's true. In AFFC, Arriane remembers the book that the Young Dragon had written, Conquest of Dorne, and that he was boastful, but still there isn't any resentment.

Just to add a further point to your musings, I think the Martells don't have many choices to make alliances. They hate the Tyrells. The Baratheons/Starks/Arryns/Tullys were responsible for the rebellion that led to the death of their kin who were the next in the line of succession. The Lannisters are responsible for the murders. Since they have no choices, they are forced into an alliance with the Targs.

You are right, the Martells were granted many priveleges which were lost after the rebellion. That must have really grated, and the chance to have one of their own on the Iron Throne.

So you think Aegon is a Blackfyre? I thought he might be Illyrio's kid.

I agree completely that the Martells does not have many possible allies, it's only the targs left for them. Or maybe the north as we discussed earlier... The Vale is also an option, but I can't see it. They have no common cause so far, and the new rule at the Vale show "little and less" interest in Dorne. Things may change on that account though...

I think it's a strong possibility that Aegon is Blackfyre, there have been so many pointers to that part in the dragons' history, so it should be important somehow. One theory is that Aegon is indeed Illyrios son, by his wife Serra who may have been a Blackfyre descendant. It was said that the male line of Blackfyres were extinct but not the female line... This would fit nicely with the fact that the Golden Company broke another contract to follow Aegon and Connington. Why else would they break a contract?

I'm just waiting for the sword to appear...

And I'm curious to see if Bloodraven have any special feelings about a Blackfyre throne-pretender suddenly appearing...

Well thanks about my little love/hate-story! I seriously have too much time on my hands some times :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

I agree completely that the Martells does not have many possible allies, it's only the targs left for them. Or maybe the north as we discussed earlier... The Vale is also an option, but I can't see it. They have no common cause so far, and the new rule at the Vale show "little and less" interest in Dorne. Things may change on that account though...

I think it's a strong possibility that Aegon is Blackfyre, there have been so many pointers to that part in the dragons' history, so it should be important somehow. One theory is that Aegon is indeed Illyrios son, by his wife Serra who may have been a Blackfyre descendant. It was said that the male line of Blackfyres were extinct but not the female line... This would fit nicely with the fact that the Golden Company broke another contract to follow Aegon and Connington. Why else would they brake a contract?

I'm just waiting for the sword to appear...

And I'm curious to see if Bloodraven have any special feelings about a Blackfyre throne-pretender suddenly appearing...

Well thanks about my little love/hate-story! I seriously have too much time on my hands some times :)

I really hope that at some point the south and the north become allies. I like the Martells and love the Starks.

That was basically the idea I had, when I read the book, that he was Illyrio's son. It never occurred to me that Serra might be a Blackfyre. That's an interesting theory. I don't want to read the ADwD boards until I reread ADwD. I am sure I missed a lot on my first read. Anyway, that's why I am unaware of all the theories as yet. This is really interesting!

You have too much time and put it to good use by entertaining us ;). It was really good, I could totally imagine it lol.