Jon Snow’s (possible) reign

[Sevumar]

So I think it's likely that Stannis will end up at the wall, and he'd be a good leader to take up the role as LC.

He might yet end up in the Watch, but I think most of his command experience is at sea. If the NW ever has need of someone to command a fleet, or somehow acquires a bigger one, he'd be ideal for that.

[Eyron]

Good point!

I'm not sure about Stannis' experience at fighting on land, I think he was esteemed a good commander all in all.

However there are things going on at East Watch by the Sea, the problems with collecting people from Hardhome. And then there was the image of a big black wave of some kind, not necessarily at East Watch though, and it gave me big worries. So there may be uses of his skills at sea anyway. Maybe Cotter Pyke needs to be "retired"... Ramsay must have a spy at the wall to have the information he had about the NW in his letter right?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Hi shaggy!

And everyone else too :cheers:

I agree, Stannis is an obstacle. But he has little hope of holding the north for many reasons... And going south is looking more and more impossible.

There is a big risk that he will eventually move himself and his army of starving frozen men to Winterfell. It's hard to lay siege to the place, it has been mentioned a couple of times, and if Ramsey is still inside - he knows how Theon entered the last time.

The "someone" that's lurking around in there could possibly open the way, but it's not certain that person in in any mood to open for Stannis, and I can't see any reason for him to do it.

But along the road to get to Winterfell, or right outside the gates maybe, it's likely there will be armed men (and women) waiting as Lazy Turtle pointed out.

The Manderleys may be sitting outside as well, trying to get in instead of going all the way back to White Harbour in the snowstorm, if they are not already inside again.

So there are possibly an army of various Northmen, Wildlings and maybe Crannogmen out and about Winterfell.

None of these guys have any love for Stannis or any reason to help him, as I see it.

So I think it's likely that Stannis will end up at the wall, and he'd be a good leader to take up the role as LC.

I really like this idea. I think Stannis would be a perfect LC. He has the experience and he seems devoted to the war against the Others. So yeah you guys are right, it could work.

On another note:

I read ADwD only once but weren't the Manderlys inside Winterfell?

Good point!

I'm not sure about Stannis' experience at fighting on land, I think he was esteemed a good commander all in all.

However there are things going on at East Watch by the Sea, the problems with collecting people from Hardhome. And then there was the image of a big black wave of some kind, not necessarily at East Watch though, and it gave me big worries. So there may be uses of his skills at sea anyway. Maybe Cotter Pyke needs to be "retired"... Ramsay must have a spy at the wall to have the information he had about the NW in his letter right?

Another excellent point. He really would be perfect for the Watch.

Oh hell, all we need is a Ramsay spy...but like I have said I read the book only once and my memory is a bit hazy, but it might be possible.

[LordBloodraven]

I don't think they're in a place to wield a lot of power, but they are the favored allies of the Crown in that region right now. They don't actually have to do much to discourage their fellows from declaring for a new King in the North. Their fortress sits astride the only real route between the two parts of Robb's old kingdom. They have possession of Riverrun too, and while that may not last, it does send a very clear message that they're held in high regard by the people in power.

If the power of the Lannister/Tyrell-backed regime on the Iron Throne crumbles, I don't think the Riverlords will have anything left to rebel with. They're out of food, money, and people and winter is just ahead. They have to look to caring for their own and they'll probably swear fealty to whichever faction it looks like will come out on top, as long as it keeps their lands and people safe. They're essentially done as a player in the game.

Given that the Lannisters are losing ground, and it's not so sure that the Tyrells would like to ally themselves with the Frey, I wouldn't count on Lord Walder's brood lasting long if the Lannisters regime crumble. If the Riverlands are attacked by the Vale or by Aegon, would the Riverlords rally to the Freys? They may not be able to rebel, but they will not back or help the Freys if they're attacked.

[Eyron]

Re: Shaggydog

As I remember the Freys and the Manderlys were ordered out to meet Stannis, whom they thought was sitting outside (remember the drums? this was one of the best moments in the book I think! It drove the Boltons and Freys crazy :devil: )

Now we know it wasn't Stannis, but other some Northmen sitting out there in the snow. And the Freys were to go first, followed by Manderly... So in the next book we will likely see the Freys getting smashed... yeey!

IIRC

[brashcandy]

I really love the idea of Stannis as either the LC and/or commanding some fleet for the Night's Watch. I hope that by the time Dany comes, the North will have sorted out their problems - with the whole Stannis/Jon/Bolton/Rickon madness and be able to be a legitimate force to contend the Iron throne if you know who is seated in it ;)

In terms of Stannis and being more suited to a position at sea - this may indeed be the Night's Watch sole purpose going forward. If the wall does indeed fall, and I suspect it might - the Watch will have to rethink their whole reason for existence.

And those pesky vows, no problem for Stannis.. he'll probably be grateful to have a good reason for not having sex with Selyse :)

[Eyron]

:agree:

Stannis is destined to be the next Lord Commander!

He gets to do what he likes best, surround himself with grim men and harsh conditions, and be happy ever after. For as long as that lasts...

Oh and he's LEAL... hehe

Maybe he will introduce the rank of Serjeant at the Nights Watch too.

So GRRM gets to use the word a little more often in the coming books :lol:

[Tagganaro]

I LOVE this idea of Jon as King in the North, or at least King of the Wildlings. I've been dreaming of this possibility ever since

Jon took on Mance in the practice yard and Tormund said after Jon's speech "Well make a good wildling out of you just yet".

C'mon, who's not digging Jon as King, Val as queen, and Tormund as well, anything. Haha, Hand of the King?

As for Dorne, while I love the possibilities of that, I highly doubt the brother of Elia would ever try and support the son that Rhaegar had when he cheated on Elia. So I don't think that's happening. That being said- Screw Val. How about Jon and anyone of the Sandsnakes as his wife? They are exactly the kind of women he'd be attracted to, and they both have that whole awesome bastard thing going on.

[Eyron]

I don't think Doran knows about Jon being Rhaegars son, and it's not yet certain he is or that anyone will ever know.

I think Jon will rise to be King in the north, or whatever he becomes, on his own merits.

The prophecy and Jons parents will not be some widespread gossip in the Seven Kingdoms as things are (war on all fronts, winter coming).

I can't see any reason for that at least. They've got zombies all over the place to worry about.

A Sandsnake should be a good match for Jon, definitely!

[Shaggydog Stark]

Re: Shaggydog

As I remember the Freys and the Manderlys were ordered out to meet Stannis, whom they thought was sitting outside (remember the drums? this was one of the best moments in the book I think! It drove the Boltons and Freys crazy :devil: )

Now we know it wasn't Stannis, but other some Northmen sitting out there in the snow. And the Freys were to go first, followed by Manderly... So in the next book we will likely see the Freys getting smashed... yeey!

IIRC

Ah yes, I recall now...that was such a great moment!

IIRC the guys outside were the Umbers, right? Oh yes, I want more Frey Pie! I really loved Manderly's pie....and I hope he doesn't die, I think he was mortally wounded.

And those pesky vows, no problem for Stannis.. he'll probably be grateful to have a good reason for not having sex with Selyse :)

I would take the vows if I were Stannis just for that reason alone. :P

:agree:

Stannis is destined to be the next Lord Commander!

He gets to do what he likes best, surround himself with grim men and harsh conditions, and be happy ever after. For as long as that lasts...

Oh and he's LEAL... hehe

Maybe he will introduce the rank of Serjeant at the Nights Watch too.

So GRRM gets to use the word a little more often in the coming books :lol:

lol...excellent! :lol:

I LOVE this idea of Jon as King in the North, or at least King of the Wildlings. I've been dreaming of this possibility ever since

Jon took on Mance in the practice yard and Tormund said after Jon's speech "Well make a good wildling out of you just yet".

C'mon, who's not digging Jon as King, Val as queen, and Tormund as well, anything. Haha, Hand of the King?

As for Dorne, while I love the possibilities of that, I highly doubt the brother of Elia would ever try and support the son that Rhaegar had when he cheated on Elia. So I don't think that's happening. That being said- Screw Val. How about Jon and anyone of the Sandsnakes as his wife? They are exactly the kind of women he'd be attracted to, and they both have that whole awesome bastard thing going on.

Yeah I second this and really dig it. Screw Val...I think the sand snakes are way cooler, but come to think of it, they will probably freeze in the north, so maybe it's not such a great idea anymore. :idea:

I guess it's Val then and Tormund :)

[brashcandy]

I'm a diehard Jon/Dany shipper, so I can't be down for Jon and anyone else :)

As for Doran supporting Jon it hinges on a couple on things - 1. we're assuming that Jon is Rhaegar's son, which while the most plausible theory right now is still not a sure thing.

2. Even if he is indeed Rhaegar's son, then Elia might have given her consent to Rhaegaar/Lyanna, and Howland Reed might be the only one left to testify to this.

So Doran could be quite happy to support Jon, especially after his disillusionment with the other Targs.

My crackpot is that Jon is Arthur Dayne's son... I think it's much more romantic/realistic that Lyanna was in love with him, than the Princely Rhaegar.

[brashcandy]

Shaggydog,

Val and Tormund..... wait wait, is Tormund even described as sexy?... :) I wonder how Alys is finding her wildling husband by the way...? She's probably real glad she went North ;)

[Eyron]

I'm a diehard Jon/Dany shipper, so I can't be down for Jon and anyone else :)

As for Doran supporting Jon it hinges on a couple on things - 1. we're assuming that Jon is Rhaegar's son, which while the most plausible theory right now is still not a sure thing.

2. Even if he is indeed Rhaegar's son, then Elia might have given her consent to Rhaegaar/Lyanna, and Howland Reed might be the only one left to testify to this.

So Doran could be quite happy to support Jon, especially after his disillusionment with the other Targs.

My crackpot is that Jon is Arthur Dayne's son... I think it's much more romantic/realistic that Lyanna was in love with him, than the Princely Rhaegar.

It's not too crackpot actually... I like these kind of speculations!

* Rhaegar would of course help him hide it if it was so, he was his best friend, even if he was a kingsguard.

* The Daynes are from Valyria as well so Jon would still be a "dragon" in some sense, not that it must be important that he is...

* Maybe Jon would be eligible to be named Sword of the Morning by now?

* I always thought Dawn would be of some consequence before the end. There's too much talk of this sword - and for nothing?

* The house Dayne have the sword Dawn and a falling star on their banners. Significant?

* It would make more sense that Dayne saw it necessary to fight Ned at Tower of Joy. I never quite figured out why he did that.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I'm a diehard Jon/Dany shipper, so I can't be down for Jon and anyone else :)

As for Doran supporting Jon it hinges on a couple on things - 1. we're assuming that Jon is Rhaegar's son, which while the most plausible theory right now is still not a sure thing.

2. Even if he is indeed Rhaegar's son, then Elia might have given her consent to Rhaegaar/Lyanna, and Howland Reed might be the only one left to testify to this.

So Doran could be quite happy to support Jon, especially after his disillusionment with the other Targs.

My crackpot is that Jon is Arthur Dayne's son... I think it's much more romantic/realistic that Lyanna was in love with him, than the Princely Rhaegar.

I like the Arthur Dayne theory because it is romantic and I have really grown tired of the R+L=J theory, but alas I don't think it works because then Ned would have no reason to keep the secret of Jon's parents from Jon and Cat. After the discussions we had on the other thread you know it would have saved everyone a load of grief, especially us. lol

I don't mind Dany and Jon getting together, but I think it might not happen for one main reason. Once they discover that they are related and hopefully work together, they will need to make alliances with other families and the best and most reliable alliances are made through marriage. So I expect they might recognize this need. Either way I am fine with this as long as Jon gets married, I hate his bloody oaths. Wait if he is king, shouldn't he be wedding Margaery? :P

You know, I actually have a crackpot theory of my own. I do not think Howland Reed is the only person who knows. I think Ned told Benjen and after discussing this on another thread, many people agreed that he was the logical person that Ned would tell. We reached the conclusion that Benjen had actually helped Lyanna elope with Rhaegar. Leading to Benjen having feelings of guilt since these events led to the deaths of Lord Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna and thousands of others in the war. Robert would have accused Benjen of treason had he discovered Benjen's role in Lyanna's elopement, so in order to protect him Ned advises him to take the black so that Robert will not be able to touch him. Of course this is all conjecture and I don't think Benjen will play a role in revealing the truth of Jon's birth, but it's a pretty damn good crackpot theory if you ask me :).

I think Doran will support Jon, because despite Rhaegar's involvement with Lyanna he is still a Targ loyalist for some reason. So I am assuming there are things we don't know, which could very well be that Elia consented to a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Shaggydog,

Val and Tormund..... wait wait, is Tormund even described as sexy?... :) I wonder how Alys is finding her wildling husband by the way...? She's probably real glad she went North ;)

He is definitely sexy, he survived having sex with a bear so he must be especially talented :leer:.

I really, really loved Alys's marriage. I thought it was the cutest ceremony and the most normal marriage we have seen so far. :wub:

[brashcandy]

It's not too crackpot actually... I like these kind of speculations!

* Rhaegar would of course help him hide it if it was so, he was his best friend, even if he was a kingsguard.

* The Daynes are from Valyria as well so Jon would still be a "dragon" in some sense, not that it must be important that he is...

* Maybe Jon would be eligible to be named Sword of the Morning by now?

* I always thought Dawn would be of some consequence before the end. There's too much talk of this sword - and for nothing?

* The house Dayne have the sword Dawn and a falling star on their banners. Significant?

* It would make more sense that Dayne saw it necessary to fight Ned at Tower of Joy. I never quite figured out why he did that.

Yeah, I've always wondered about that too... not to mention how the hell did Ned win against the best swordsman in the land unless of course Howland Reed helped.... maybe this is why Ned is so guilty over Jon... he knew he killed his father... and yup Dawn will probably be the flaming sword in the Azor Ahai prophecy..

[Shaggydog Stark]

It would make more sense that Dayne saw it necessary to fight Ned at Tower of Joy. I never quite figured out why he did that.

It's because he was a member of the KG and therefore, he has taken a vow to protect the king. This clearly indicates that Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually married and Jon is the next in line of succession. Otherwise, once Rhaegar and Aerys died, they would have left the Tower of Joy and gone to protect Viserys. But they didn't, they stayed at the TOJ instead to protect Rhaegar's remaining child.

[brashcandy]

I like the Arthur Dayne theory because it is romantic and I have really grown tired of the R+L=J theory, but alas I don't think it works because then Ned would have no reason to keep the secret of Jon's parents from Jon and Cat. After the discussions we had on the other thread you know it would have saved everyone a load of grief, especially us. lol

I don't mind Dany and Jon getting together, but I think it might not happen for one main reason. Once they discover that they are related and hopefully work together, they will need to make alliances with other families and the best and most reliable alliances are made through marriage. So I expect they might recognize this need. Either way I am fine with this as long as Jon gets married, I hate his bloody oaths. Wait if he is king, shouldn't he be wedding Margaery? :P

You know, I actually have a crackpot theory of my own. I do not think Howland Reed is the only person who knows. I think Ned told Benjen and after discussing this on another thread, many people agreed that he was the logical person that Ned would tell. We reached the conclusion that Benjen had actually helped Lyanna elope with Rhaegar. Leading to Benjen having feelings of guilt since these events led to the deaths of Lord Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna and thousands of others in the war. Robert would have accused Benjen of treason had he discovered Benjen's role in Lyanna's elopement, so in order to protect him Ned advises him to take the black so that Robert will not be able to touch him. Of course this is all conjecture and I don't think Benjen will play a role in revealing the truth of Jon's birth, but it's a pretty damn good crackpot theory if you ask me :).

I think Doran will support Jon, because despite Rhaegar's involvement with Lyanna he is still a Targ loyalist for some reason. So I am assuming there are things we don't know, which could very well be that Elia consented to a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

He is definitely sexy, he survived having sex with a bear so he must be especially talented :leer:.

I really, really loved Alys's marriage. I thought it was the cutest ceremony and the most normal marriage we have seen so far. :wub:

Poor Tormund!! Hehehehe... agreed on that marriage too... one of the best moments GRRM has given so far!

On the Dayne thing - yeah that would have saved us some grief indeed :) But are you sure that Ned would have not have still kept it a secret... maybe Lyanna swore him never to tell...

anyways, I like the Benjen theory,,, and I don't think he's dead so maybe he could just be the one to tell Jon

btw, how likely is he to be the man doing those killings at Winterfell?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Poor Tormund!! Hehehehe... agreed on that marriage too... one of the best moments GRRM has given so far!

On the Dayne thing - yeah that would have saved us some grief indeed :) But are you sure that Ned would have not have still kept it a secret... maybe Lyanna swore him never to tell...

anyways, I like the Benjen theory,,, and I don't think he's dead so maybe he could just be the one to tell Jon

btw, how likely is he to be the man doing those killings at Winterfell?

I think it is pretty definite that Lyanna made Ned promise something because she felt the life of her child was in danger. If you take into consideration timelines then by the time Ned reached Lyanna, news of the murders of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon should have reached the TOJ. Lyanna would have been terrified for Jon's life. However, it is believed this is just one promise. I think Lyanna extracted some other promises out of Ned as well, that we do not know yet. There is speculation that whatever it is must be in the crypts of Winterfell. Had Jon been anyone's son apart from Rhaegar's his life would not have been in danger and Ned would not have needed to blemish his honor. Besides if he was anyone else's son the KG would have been honor bound to go find Viserys to protect him as the next in the line of succession. The fact that they remained at the TOJ just proves that not only is Jon Rhaegar's son but he is his legitimate child and therefore was/is the next in the line of succession.

I really hope so. I don't want Benjen to be dead or coldhands or some wight. There is a theory that the CoTF's cave has tunnels that might lead to the crypts of Winterfell. So maybe Benjen somehow managed to reach Winterfell through those tunnels. I just really hope he is alive and I would be very pleased if he was behind the killings.

[brashcandy]

Hmmm ok, thanks for the clarification Shaggy, and your reasoning on the KG makes sense... nice comeup for the bastard boy huh? ;)

Do you guys trust the COfF? For some reason they freak me out... I feel like Bran has entered some cult - like Arya - and will have to fight his way out.

[fassreiter]

I LOVE this idea of Jon as King in the North, or at least King of the Wildlings.

Gods. You guys realize at all that there is a fundamental difference between being King in the North and King of the Wildlings??? One of them is the small matter of your kingship being supported by a feudal system - or not. Can't have both, and you can't have both of it in your heart. Jon is Ned's son, one way or another. Under him, the free folk would be nothing but another bunch of kneelers in no time, paying taxes, paying tribute and having laws and lords, freedom be damned.