Jon Snow storeroom chapter.....

[Weasel_Soup]

There's a scene with Dondarrion that demonstrates that the burning swords are fantasical, but they weaken and break. Sandor proves it. Mel's Lightbringer doesn't. You have a mention/reminder of her using powders and such for her pyrotechnics, but Lightbringer glows wherever Stannis goes with or without Mel. There's some magic there.

I'd point out, too, Mel can't use Stannis again, as both murders she committed with the shadows have taken too much from Stannis. He can't survive another. She hasn't had purpose to resurrect anyone as yet (that we know of), but her magics are still powerful.

I personally wonder if she's not a undead herself... she doesn't eat, doesn't feel cold, and maybe because she doesn't HAVE life she can't give it to others. She has to take from others their lives in order to perform her gifts. She's not a wight/whitewalker, though. The Wall does not repel her. The Wall boosts her powers. However it might be also convoluting the messages and her abilities to understand the fires seems to have slipped a bit since getting to the North.

I'm of the belief that was not a magical sword Berric had. It was a sword with wildfire in the blade, like the kind Thoros uses, and it is dicussed earlier that wildfire weaken the intergity of the blade. It broke becuase the steel was compromised and he tried to block a mighty blow from one of the strongest men in Westeros.

[Lady Lars]

It's not entirely clear whether the sword used in the dog-and-pony show Mel orchestrated on Dragonstone (wherein the statues of the Seven were burned) is the same sword that shows up with Stannis thereafter, but I'm inclined to think that it is.

Actually, what's happening with Melisandre's Lightbringer is interesting: the first time we see the sword, it is almost ridiculously fake. It is melodramatically stuck in the Mother's (Maiden's?) breast, and Stannis has to use an oven mitt to pull it from the flames. And then, as if to emphasize the farce of the whole thing, he ends up poking its blackened remains in the dirt. Not a very impressive magic sword at this point. But in each subsequent viewing, the sword gets a little more impressive. It lacks the supposed heat of the true Lightbringer, but it's beginning to glow more brightly each time Stannis reveals it. The last time we see the sword - at "Mance's" burning, iirc - the sword is described as glowing so brightly that it was as if it were "the sun made steel". So, the sword is undergoing a transformation of some sort, and maybe Stannis is undergoing a transformation as well.

I like this theory, but it could be glowing more simply because Melisandre's power is stronger at the wall. I believe it's a glamour and nothing more. But it's odd that Melisandre still thinks Stannis is AA if she is the one glamouring his sword to make him seem legit. Or perhaps because she believes he is AA, she is actually causing the sword to glow unconsciously. Just a thought.

[Isy]

I think the epilouge that described the skin-changer's essence/soul/conciousness transferring to a wolf was there to establish that Jon would be able to do the same with Ghost.

[House Martell]

Is anyone else concerned about Ghost coming up to Jon while he's being stabbed and not attacking the guys doing the stabbing, and then Ghost gets attacked by the NW? I'm not sure how Ghost fits into the event, I mean Jon's calling him so he's not there, if he was he'd certainly defend Jon. And if he did show up how do we know he'd survive, if they're stabbing Jon, they certainly wouldn't have any problems taking out his wolf? Jon is certainly not a skilled enough skinchanger/warg to go put his consciousness into Ghost if he is far off, it's a possibility that he could "slip" in if they were in close proximity but I don't think it would be a good idea for Ghost to be there at that moment.

[bemused]

Are we sure Ghost Isn't there at the very end ?

a) Think of the foreshadowing at "Mance's" sacrifice , one arrow to the throat, one to the abdomen , one in the back ..and the fourth is blocked by one of the bars of the cage.

B) OK , now think of Mel telling Jon repeatedly to keep his wolf close, and of her asking him if he'd like her to tell him his enemies names...

c) Marsh et al leave the sheild hall first , then John notices Mel is gone ( and the Queen's men) .

d) During the attack , he thinks, "Ghost.." then he takes the third blow, and collaspses .

He never feels the fourth blow , but why ? He may lose consciousness , he must be in shock..and we can't be sure the fourth blow ever actually falls or if it's stopped by something.( such as, perhaps, a direwolf taking down the fourth attacker.) Jon whispers "Ghost." .. but is that because he's reaching / calling for him, or because he's dimly aware of his presence ?

Mel may have left early to try to free Ghost. The Queen's men should have gone directly to Selyse , considering what they've just heard. We don't know what Wun-wun did at that point, or what all of the men who came pouring out of the keeps would do, what their numbers were, or how many men were with Marsh. We don't know if anyone might have run and alerted Tormund..

So I guess we know nothing ( or next to it ) , but apart from what the magical possibilities may be , there's a lot that might happen in Jon's favour outside of any magical help.

ETA : It occurs to me that Ghost might be in more mortal danger if Jon dies while he's locked up , than if he's in the thick of things.

[House Martell]

I agree Ghost would be toast if he was chained up, but don't think in the middle of Jon's attackers is a very safe place either. Other than Jon's closest friends I think most people would look to take down a direwolf attacking NW (even if he is only trying to defend Jon).

[The Mother of The Others]

Ghost is locked indoors but I don't know if he's chained up. He might just bolt as soon as somebody opens the door. Or if Martin has heard all these theories about Jon's spirit surviving warged in Ghost, we all might be in store for a shock when the next book starts with a Ghost POV of the wolf getting killed too. :bawl:

[House Martell]

doesn't Ghost go off hunting a lot too, do we know for sure he was physically at castle black at that moment?

[MtnLion]

doesn't Ghost go off hunting a lot too, do we know for sure he was physically at castle black at that moment?

Jon left his quarters, but Ghost was behaving strangely, so he left him inside. Jon was worried that he was agitated about the boar, but in reality he was probably agitated about the attackers.

[House Martell]

Jon left his quarters, but Ghost was behaving strangely, so he left him inside. Jon was worried that he was agitated about the boar, but in reality he was probably agitated about the attackers.

Thx, OK so Ghost was loose in Jon's room...it would be best if he got out but i'd like to see how he could come to Jon's rescue and get away safely

[Yarl Snow]

The prophecy itself can be split into three parts, in which the first part refers to a specific time "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers …", the middle part "…Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt…" to a specific place and the last part "…to wake dragons out of stone." to his destiny, a future event.

I like this dividing the prophecy up. It shed some light on things for me. Many people seem to focus more on the where -- smoke and salt -- than the when and what. Smoke and salt can be just about anything. As we have seen, Dragonstone can be smoke and salt, Marsh's tears can be salt and steam (blood, or someone's breath in the cold) can be smoke, a store room can be smoke and salt. But that is not true for the when and what parts.

The red star can pretty much only be the red comet. I agree, it could be some house symbol, such as Ser Patrek's stars, drenched in blood, but I would call that a weak sign compared to the comet.

To wake dragons out of stone. I see nothing that comes close to being as strong as Dany waking her dragons. This is also something that Azor Ahai is meant to be doing, so it cannot apply to someone "waking" Jon. Unless, of course, Jon isn't actually AA, but then this would also be a moot point.

To me, the when and what is pretty strong evidence that Daenerys is Azor Ahai. And the where in her story, born again amidst smoke and salt, is pretty strong, as she did walk into a fire at the time, and by all indications were reborn. Her waking dragons and surviving the fire are pretty strong indications that something fundamental happened there. Note also that she had her Nissa-Nissa, in the shape of undead Drogon.

Smoke and salt could also, by the way, be interpreted as the Targaryen words: Fire and blood. No smoke without fire, and blood is salty.

I feel pretty sure that there was some foreshadowing going on, and that Jon's body will be kept in storage until he is one day resurrected. Which also ties in with a vision of Dany's from the house of the Undying: (paraphrasing) A blue rose grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. Bride of death, they name her. So, Drogon (dead), Victarion (undead? will die?), Jon (dead and frozen).

[MtnLion]

I'm sorry to point this out, but AA (tPtwP) is a warrior, who wields a sword. Dragons cannot be metaphorical swords, because dragons are mentioned directly in the same prophecy.

[Yarl Snow]

I'm sorry to point this out, but AA (tPtwP) is a warrior, who wields a sword. Dragons cannot be metaphorical swords, because dragons are mentioned directly in the same prophecy.

I tend to agree with you, but in view of the other evidence, I cannot see anyone more likely to be Azor Ahai than Daenerys. Even Maester Aemon believed it. The dragons prove it, I believe he tells Sam in AFFC. I see three options:

• The dragons are the sword. A bit feeble, but nonetheless valid.
  
• There is no sword. Perhaps the story of the last hero and Nissa-Nissa is nothing but folklore.
  
• The sword will appear in coming books. Blackfyre? A new sword?
  

There is talk in the Jon chapters about flaming swords, so perhaps that is where Lightbringer will appear.

[Miriel]

Bride of death, they name her. So, Drogon (dead), Victarion (undead? will die?), Jon (dead and frozen).

Well yeah, maybe. But in the actual story she is married to Hizdahr, still very much alive ...

[Miriel]

I'm sorry to point this out, but AA (tPtwP) is a warrior, who wields a sword. Dragons cannot be metaphorical swords, because dragons are mentioned directly in the same prophecy.

Re: the dragons as metaphors, I thought this was an interesting quote from Xaro from Quarth:

"When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

Maybe they can be metaphorical swords?

[MtnLion]

Re: the dragons as metaphors, I thought this was an interesting quote from Xaro from Quarth:

"When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

Maybe they can be metaphorical swords?

In the quote that you offered there are two sentences, not the single one I referred to. In your quote the first sentence specifies dragons, and the second one uses a flaming sword as a metaphor for the dragons. That is not what I referred to.

[Yarl Snow]

In the quote that you offered there are two sentences, not the single one I referred to. In your quote the first sentence specifies dragons, and the second one uses a flaming sword as a metaphor for the dragons. That is not what I referred to.

What are you saying? That Xaro's analogy is invalid because he used two sentences?

[Miriel]

In the quote that you offered there are two sentences, not the single one I referred to. In your quote the first sentence specifies dragons, and the second one uses a flaming sword as a metaphor for the dragons. That is not what I referred to.

Well, OK. But you said the dragons cannot be metaphorical swords, b/c they are referred to in the same prophecy. I don't know why that necessarily has to be.

My point was simply there is a person even in the books themselves who see them as metaphorical swords. Is that a sop to us, the rabid speculating fans? Who knows?

You said AA had to be a warrior, b/c he wields a sword and that sword cannot be dragons, but instead an actual sword. But we don't really know this. It is highly likely, but really all we have is a vague, ancient prophecy. Parts of if seem to be unclear (red star bleeding versus the stars bleeding etc). I myself think it is very possible Dany is AA. Also possible its Jon.

But all we really know is that Rheager stumbled across the prophecy and decided he had to be a warrior; that AA is associated with a sword; and that this sword will be Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes. Since Dany has so far been the only one to wake dragons from stone, but is lacking a sword, there has been speculation that in fact her dragons are a metaphorical sword. I don't think all that speculation is invalidated entirely just b/c the dragons are mentioned in the a same prophecy as the sword of AA.

As Marwyn makes clear prophecy is tricky, and we've seen several instances so far where it did not come true (like Dany's son) so we just can't say for sure. I think it is too early to rule out the dragon as metaphorical sword as of now. Next book maybe, but not yet.

Thats all ...

[MtnLion]

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.

This all reads that Lightbringer is a sword, not a dragon, yes? It also states that Azor Ahai is a warrior. Look to the definition of "warrior" it just does not fit Daenerys even in a modern sense, and we are talking midieval sense.

[MtnLion]

Well, OK. But you said the dragons cannot be metaphorical swords, b/c they are referred to in the same prophecy. I don't know why that necessarily has to be.

Swords can be a metaphor for Daenerys' dragons, but you would not sensibly use the word sword in the same sentence with dragon without setting equality, which we know is incorrect, one is living and the other is not. The quote that I referred to has the reference to a sword and dragon(s) in the same sentence.