Jon Snow storeroom chapter.....

[Lady of Long Lake]

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c) Marsh et al leave the sheild hall first , then John notices Mel is gone ( and the Queen's men)

That caught my eye too. Jon sees red clothing at the back of the room before his speech. Afterwards, Marsh and crew leave quickly and he can't find Mel in the crowd. She left the same time Marsh did. Perhaps she heard the plotters talking as they left and she knew what was coming. And saves him somehow

[Miriel]

Swords can be a metaphor for Daenerys' dragons, but you would not sensibly use the word sword in the same sentence with dragon without setting equality, which we know is incorrect, one is living and the other is not. The quote that I referred to has the reference to a sword and dragon(s) in the same sentence.

Well Xaro did, right? "Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." He is comparing them to a flaming sword, a la Lightbringer.

This all reads that Lightbringer is a sword, not a dragon, yes? It also states that Azor Ahai is a warrior. Look to the definition of "warrior" it just does not fit Daenerys even in a modern sense, and we are talking midieval sense.

Yeah OK. That is a very literal interpretation of the prophecy. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just pointing out that the books make the point that prophecy is tricky and often misunderstood. Martin is known to like to tweak the whole genre a bit (look at Quentyn the Frog Prince for an example). The prophecy calls for a warrior, who is going to draw a magic sword out of a fire and save the world. If I am a peasant about to be wiped out by the Others, and Dany shows up on dragon back with fire coming from said dragon melting Others right and left, I won't send her back in order to wait for a warrior with a proper sword, kwim?

That is my point: it may be a very literal event that that fulfills the prophecy. But it may be a metaphor. We just don't know.

[MtnLion]

Well Xaro did, right?

No, Xaro uses two sentences. One has dragon(s) directly mentioned. The following sentence uses a metaphor of "fiery sword" for dragons.

As for what GRRM is including, there is an awful lot of tweaking going on (specifically in A Dance with Dragons). It seems that some of what he thought would be revealed later, in his writings, has already been revealed somewhere nearby. ;)

[Miriel]

No, Xaro uses two sentences. One has dragon(s) directly mentioned. The following sentence uses a metaphor of "fiery sword" for dragons.

As for what GRRM is including, there is an awful lot of tweaking going on. It seems that some of what he thought would be revealed later, in his writings, has already been revealed somewhere nearby. ;)

The 'they' that is bolded in my quote is a direct reference to the dragons: "When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

Not clear what your second point means?

[MtnLion]

The 'they' that is bolded in my quote is a direct reference to the dragons: "When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

Not clear what your second point means?

The second point is that even the producers for HBO's GoT know who Jon's parents are. I don't think that that cat was ever intended to be let out of the bag until near the end of the story. So, we have some red herrings popping into the story to suggest baby swapping and fake suicides that possibly were never intended in the original.

As far as the first goes, if Daenerys is the savior of the world, that would be fine. But she is not Azor Ahai reborn according to the prophecy. She was not born (or reborn) under the bleeding star. Lightbringer is a true sword. Daenerys does not fit the definition of warrior. Dragons are unlikely to be referred to in the prophecies (metaphorically) as a sword, which in some of the prophecies Lightbringer is directly stipulated.

Seperately, if you buy into the gender bender idea of Valyian: Consider the meaning of "valonqar", is it really little brother, or does it mean little sibling, or little rival?

Now we have a genuine case for Jon being reborn in the presence of real smoke and salt. All we are missing is a bleeding star and Lightbringer, itself.

[Miriel]

The second point is that even the producers for HBO's GoT know who Jon's parents are. I don't think that that cat was ever intended to be let out of the bag until near the end of the story. So, we have some red herrings popping into the story to suggest baby swapping and fake suicides that possibly were never intended in the original.

As far as the first goes, if Daenerys is the savior of the world, that would be fine. But she is not Azor Ahai reborn according to the prophecy. She was not born (or reborn) under the bleeding star. Lightbringer is a true sword. Daenerys does not fit the definition of warrior. Dragons are unlikely to be referred to in the prophecies (metaphorically) as a sword, which in some of the prophecies Lightbringer is directly stipulated.

Seperately, if you buy into the gender bender idea of Valyian: Consider the meaning of "valonqar", is it really little brother, or does it mean little sibling, or little rival?

Now we have a genuine case for Jon being reborn in the presence of real smoke and salt. All we are missing is a bleeding star and Lightbringer, itself.

I think you need to revisit what Marwyn said about prophecy, lol. It may be as literal as you imply, it may not.

But, I am not wedded enough to the idea of Dany as AA to continue this anymore. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I only wanted to make the point that at least one character in the book had compared her dragon's to a flaming sword already. It cannot be said that Martin is unaware of the possibility.

[Yarl Snow]

Whether or not Lightbringer are the dragons, I am getting some interesting thoughts reading this.

• Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. Stannis' Lightbringer is cold. I would not put it past Stannis to try to temper his blade by stabbing his own wife through the heart.
  
• The Red Sword of Heroes. Reminds me of the red comet. Ser Arthur Dayne's sword was supposedly made from a comet. Perhaps Dany's red comet crashed somewhere, ready to be made into a sword.
  
• Hardhome's apocalypse -- a comet? There was an elaborate story regarding the event that destroyed Hardhome. It seems someone might be going there, perhaps to find some old comet debris.
  

That being said, a lot of the things mentioned also fits Daenerys' dragons:

• In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. Dany did pull the dragons from a fire.
  
• Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Dany used Drogo's corpse as a reagent when waking the dragons.
  
• Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. There are multiple references to the dragons being warm to the touch, and dragons bleeding fire, etc.
  
• In battle the blade burned fiery hot. We have seen the dragons breathe fire many times.
  

What I am wondering right now is how Dany will get to the wall, and who will be the POV at the wall, with Jon dead. It seems to me that she must go there sooner or later, especially considering the prophecy that speaks of her finding a blue rose in a chink in a wall of ice.

[The Mother of The Others]

how Dany will get to the wall, especially considering the prophecy that speaks of her finding a blue rose in a chink in a wall of ice.

And maybe then "waking" that "dragon" family member Jon from the cold "stone" of the wall.

What's going to be awesome is when the series finishes without ever answering who the Others really are and without resolving this prophecy stuff because everyone knows prophecy is silly and doesn't really have any bearing on the lives of people. :crying:

I'm still confident the Others will remain "other" at the end. Call it a gut instinct. Because linking their origin to the Children would diminish the Others. It'd make them less than they currently are. George isn't going to think that's as cool as everyone on the internet seems to. He wants his boogie men to remain scary boogie men, which is why he's cast them in the role of boogie men. It's tempting to turn the Others into Non-Others by saying "they're really THIS, or they're really controlled by THAT," because that would render them understandable and thus defeatable in the small amount of time left. But I'm of the belief they aren't going to be truly defeated. They aren't going to be understood. 1000s of years after ASOIAF concludes, they'll still be a threat looming over the world. This is merely the story of how mankind narrowly averts doom this time.

If the Wall falls down, that could change the status quo, though. Then we might be exposed enough to Others to where we'd need to find some permanent solution that'd end their malice. So maybe we should cheer for the wall to fall, because that'd make it more likely we'd see these mysteries answered. And it seems like ASOIAF might be a history of the end of the Wall era, because you've got the realm in chaos and the Night's Watch is dying before our eyes, and the # of Lord Commanders is suspiciously close to 1000 which screams of a big change coming. But then again, the wildlings are a likely replacement for the Watch, and it's easier to give us the 1000th Lord Commander winning a skirmish against undead than it is to solve the undead problem forever.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

Ice dragon..Targarian coldhand..-Jon Snow...he will command the others and lead an others army to KL while Deny attacks with her dragons..both will perish along with the Lennister family. Sansa will be queen

[lostinwesteros]

This is the BEST thread! I can't wait to come back and read the other 7 pages. I'd 'like' every single post except would run out of them.

[The guy from the Vale]

Now we have a genuine case for Jon being reborn in the presence of real smoke and salt. All we are missing is a bleeding star and Lightbringer, itself.

But we have these two. Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, the Queen's Man who is killed by Wun Wun just minutes before Jon is assassinated, has a blue star on silver as his sigil, and wears a cloak covered with stars. So, these stars bleed literally (because a giant made them bleed)

And then, there's the theory that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch itself. Remember their vow: "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

[bemused]

Just throwing this out there ,off the top of my head; perhaps it's already been mentioned....Could Bride of Death refer to Hizdhar's ownership and promotion the Death Pits, his possibly being the Harpy ( or Her lieutenant .. ;) ) , and his possibly being responsible for the locusts ?

Marwyn's warning ( ouch !) seems to refer to the idea that even if a prophecy is written with the intent of being literal, prophecies more often are fulfilled ( if at all ) in some unexpected way that is only obvious with hindsight.

Since ADWD the blue rose blooming in a ... is it chink or crack ?..in the wall ( my brain wants to remember crack..) hints at Jon fully coming into his own by trying to mend the NW. The crisis at the wall is like fertilizer for his maturing process..

[Drogo]

THis makes tons of sense to me. WHy? Because George loves food more than anything else in the world. It is fate that Snow will revive next to smoked and salted meat.

[Dragonstar]

Absolutely love this thread and the initial observation that set it off. I agree that the wall will fall. I think Melisandre sets off bonfires to stave off the Others streaming thru the ruined Wall At this point, Jon wakes up in his smoke and salt ice cell and draws his sword out of the flames to become AA.

[Iceborn]

Very convincing arguments, one flaw, Jon worships the old gods not R'hllor and he would have to be brainwashed to change and I don't think GRRM will do that to such a well-loved character (yes I know about Ned...). Anyway it looks like the profecy is being completed and Maester Aegon thinks that Danny is the foretold not Jon, also abouth the knight but don't prophercys mostly use large scale signs, like storms, or comets and Danny has a sort of rebirth in fire.