More Occupation of Wall Street

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Tunisia certainly has some unsettling similarities to our own situation. Recall that it was youth unemployment that resulted in those protests. Egypt, less so, because we don't have iskariyy on every street corner, but we do have an incarceration rate of well over 1% of the population, which is pretty fucking fascist by itself.

We were talking specifically about election laws, and the democratic process. But if you're going to duck that question and answer a different one, I suppose that's an answer in itself, huh?

What's its intended purpose, again? The plaza around Philadelphia City Hall is 100% concrete, and was a place for homeless people to hang out. Now they sleep there. I'm not sure what is being damaged beyond repair there.

That might be the case at that particular location. It certainly isn't true at all of them.

What is this, some kind of a hypothetical referendum? Ridiculous, I'm not answering such a stupid question.

You made the statements that (quoting here) "the police work for me" and "sleeping on public property shouldn't be a crime". I simply asked you for your reaction if a majority of voters -- acting through their elected representatives -- disagreed with you. In other words, do you define a process as being democratic only if the result of that process is to your liking?

You can call that hypothetical if you wish, but the fact that some cities do have such laws, and that the police enforce them, suggests that a majority of voters in those places do disagree with you.

[Galactus]

"sleeping on public property shouldn't be a crime".

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

-Anatole Frances

[Relic]

or trolls.

At least one out of three, by her own admission.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

At least one out of three, by her own admission.

Seriously, you didn't think her reference to business casual was tongue in cheek?

[Relic]

Dunno, but the constant dirty hippie remarks are meant to aggitate and distract. Trolling, which she admitted to. Silly and uncalled for, imho.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Dunno, but the constant dirty hippie remarks are meant to aggitate and distract. Trolling, which she admitted to. Silly and uncalled for, imho.

I'm guilty of that as well, and you're probably right about the characterization. But I think if you're going to be fair, there's not much to choose between the "dirty hippies" POV, and the "hick/racist teabagger" POV.

Isn't the contrast itself kind of interesting, though? Look at the OWS protestors, and the methods they've chosen, then look at the tea partiers and the methods they chose. Forgetting politics for a moment, the cultural disconnect is just striking. You just wouldn't think of there being extended occupations by tea partiers. And I'm not saying that to be disparaging toward OWS. It's just that the two groups and their supporters have entirely different worldviews, and I think efforts to find anything more than extremely generalized commonalities are just doomed to failure.

To some extent, each group is almost protesting against the other. Tea partiers, at least in some sense, represent the ultimate in conservatism -- they want to preserve a view of American that they think is being lost. OWS represents a far more progressive element that wants to take the country in a direction it has never been.

[Shryke]

- How can OWS and the tea-party co-exist in our political structure? We have already seen 2 years of obstructionist nihilism at the behest of the tea-party. If a left-wing group goes toe-to-toe with them, will the entire governing process be irretrievably dead-locked?

What obstructionism is OWS promoting?

- What does success for OWS look like? Increasing taxes on the rich only goes so far. It might feel like a good start, but all of the analysis I have seen shows that it cannot cover projected deficits. And rich people produce less when they have high actual marginal tax (I saw a very good study to support this). What does OWS really expect to happen? The more socialist countries of western Europe are even deeper in trouble with unsustainable govt promises.

What are you talking about here?

- What does success for OWS look like? If they want to repudiate the inequality of capitalism, how will they carry the 99% with them? For all of the complaints about the disappearing middle-class, the middle-class fled to the suburban school districts to give their kids an advantage over the poor urban kids, the middle-class goes into debt to send their kids to college to improve their relative chances of lifetime earnings, the middle-class sends both parents to work to improve their lifestyle purchasing power, the middle-class buys cheap goods from China so that they can have more stuff even though they know it means less jobs for Americans. The 99% are full participants in this scramble for relative wealth, they choose it every day in a million little ways (and in some big ones). Most of the 1% were not born into the 1% (think of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, most CEOs, most of Wall St.). So we're talking about a culture where everyone is buying lottery tickets, but resenting the ones who won that lottery. Do we expect people to repudiate the lottery, or do they just want to force some change in the pay-out structure?

In general, they just seem to be justifiably mad that the economy is in the shitter, while the people that caused the bad economy walked away with a sweet bailout. That they can't find work and nobody is doing shit about it. The their government is more concerned with what Wall Street want then what it's citizens need.

What does success look like? Probably depends on the individual, but in general it would be political action to correct those grevences. And the rumblings on that front are already starting.

[Shryke]

I don't know. But doesn't that sort of beg the question as to how they will achieve the desired change? The tea partiers, for the most part, seem to be directed towards electing sympathetic politicians. I am honestly confused as to how OWS intends to achieve its aims.

Again, I'm not sure that the OWS is even interested in the "governing process." But assuming it is, I think the country really will not be in much different political shape than it's always been in. The truth is that you can find nasty, polarized elections going back a comparatively long way. Events sometimes give one side an edge over the other, though.

That's why I think complaints without at least a clear vision of what solutions should look like are worthless. And I think that's why OWS deliberately keeps its message vague, so that observers can read into it something consistent with their own beliefs. But if it is, in fact, going to accomplish anything of substance, it has to get specific. And at that point, I strongly suspect that agreement will break down.

They don't have to get specific at all. They just need to keep the pressure on and keep gathering support and the people in DC will feel it. They've already begun shifting the narrative around.

The question is whether their actions can continue to do so and whether they can or need to make any steps to shift the protests into direct political action.

But even without that, getting the message out there and having people support it creates a perception that this is an agenda that politicians must pander to. And that changes policy.

Yes, and this is why I get frustrated by the claims of some that the current system is "undemocratic". To me, such accusations are the product of the myopic belief on the part of some that their POV is really dominant, so it must be a "broken system" that prevents them from triumphing. But in fact, I think you are exactly correct. The tea parties and OWS/sympathizers have very different underlying views of what they want this country to be, and as soon as you get past some very general populist rhetoric, any points of agreement vanish. That's not undemocratic, though. It's simply a symptom of a very divided electorate.

Nah, undemocratic is all the other ways certain parties try to cage the vote.

[Relic]

I'm guilty of that as well, and you're probably right about the characterization. But I think if you're going to be fair, there's not much to choose between the "dirty hippies" POV, and the "hick/racist teabagger" POV.

I, for one, try to avoid those sort of labels. I may think them once in a while but i quickly attempt to subvert such sterotypes. After all its better to understand the enemy rather than dismiss them off hand. :P

And you're right, the methods and apparent goals are so different that i really dont see the point of comparing. Tea baggers have a clear political agenda (or so it seems to me). It is very much a political movement. OWS, on the other hand, is less political i think. Yeah there is a theme of reform (which i obv believe in) but disjointed and vague. Its a bunch of pissed off people who see the system as flawed, maybe fatally so. Failing to find political representation they gathered amd decided on an old fashioned sit in. I really think its the name that bothers you the most. 99%. But i think you might be looking at it the wrong way. These people dont represent anything other than wealth disparity. They arent saying 99% of the USA agrees with them.

Anyway typing on my phone sucks and its hard to edit my posts before submitting them, so yeah.

[Crazydog7]

I love the main thrust of the rights counter argument to the protests

1. Get a job!!

2. You're trashing a public space!!!

3. Capitalism isn't the enemy blame Obama

4. Honorable mention for Herman Cain "Blame Yourselves"

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CD,

Where is "Occupy Charleston"?

[Shryke]

The "Get a Job!" attacks are the best. It's like they aren't even pretending to pay attention.

[Crazydog7]

It was just a week long thing and the last action taken by the Occupy Charleston General Assembly was to dissolve as "Occupy Charleston" and merge with "Occupy Columbia" and try to organize some form of "Occupy South Carolina"

As to where it was Brittlebank Park on Lockwood they wanted the Battery apparently but (surprise) weren't allowed the correct permits. There is no way in hell Commissar Joe our good mayor would allow even a small peaceful gathering to interfere with Tourism.

I was encouraged by what I saw but I feel we have already moved beyond what peaceful protests can accomplish. The only guy on that I have heard say anything coherent on this is the guy who I call the Gold Standard Guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmPWcLQ1Mk

He is absolutely correct but we have no tools in place to enact real legislative change. The banking system benefits from the fact that we aren't on the gold standard anymore. Asking them to switch back out of the goodness of their hearts is kind of unrealistic.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I really think its the name that bothers you the most. 99%. But i think you might be looking at it the wrong way. These people dont represent anything other than wealth disparity. They arent saying 99% of the USA agrees with them.

I'm not sure "bother" is quite right, though it may be the case in part. The real issue is that I'm sort of fascinated/amused by the tactics themselves, even more so than the actual message. Here's an article about OWS protestors getting arrested for walking in the roadway, requiring the closing of the Brooklyn Bridge.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/occupy-wall-street-new-york-242872

That kind of thing makes me wonder exactly who the protestors are trying to draw to their side, and why they believe their tactics are the best means to accomplish that. Things like that are going to piss off average people who are just trying to get around. So why do it? The same with the long term encampment thing. Do they believe those tactics will endear them to the rest of the 99%? At some point, the "get a job" jabs are inevitable. How can people be holding down jobs, or even looking for work, when they're living in a park full-time and protesting? A lot of people in that 99% who are going to work every day are going to wonder more and more about that as time goes on. And as winter approaches, the cultural gulf between many of the 99% (who go to work, live in homes, etc.) and those OWS protestors still hanging on in that park will become more and more apparent.

I guess I'm just somewhat flabbergasted at what I see must be an incredibly insular mindset. Any message worth delivering is going to have some controversy, but why deliberately engage in tactics that you have to know are going to cause even more controversy, and may well alienate some folks who might have been more supportive otherwise? The only thing I can think of is that they just don't get that some people may start taking a very dim view of their tactics. It's as if they're really just intent on preaching to the converted -- to like minded people who already agree with their aims.

[Shryke]

Uh, FLOW, they did that like ... 3 weeks ago to get some attention for their cause and for the abuse they were suffering at the hands of the NYPD. Since then, the movement has only grown.

So despite what you might want to think, it worked extremely well.

And the point, again, is that they are protesting because they can't get work. There aren't enough jobs out there. Not by a long shot.

The only insular mindset here is your own. You just don't get it because you haven't wanted to since the start. These hordes of people who are turned away by the protests, who are "taking a dim view" of their agenda? They do not exist. Stop trying to invent them so you can act like your not-exactly-trustworthy issues with the movement are some sort of majority view.

[Crazydog7]

Former Lord of Winterfell giving people lectures on having an insular mindset. Oh god, thats funny.

Also the article is old news 10/1/11 the story that you couldn't be bothered to research for yourself is that the various protesters were told they could walk on that bridge it turns out the cops lied or at least told a half truth or two and I think this was covered a few threads ago.

Here is one I hadn't seen now I don't like Anonymous and their tactics but having to dredge up an anti-mask law from 1845 as your excuse is pretty transparent.

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/anonymous-occupywallstreet-protesters-arrested-under-antique-anti-mask-law.php

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Uh, FLOW, they did that like ... 3 weeks ago to get some attention for their cause and for the abuse they were suffering at the hands of the NYPD. Since then, the movement has only grown. So despite what you might want to think, it worked extremely well.

Sure it did. That's why they're drawing 100,000 a day marching down Wall Street.

And the point, again, is that they are protesting because they can't get work. There aren't enough jobs out there. Not by a long shot.

Actually, surveys taken of protestors show that the majority are employed. You can follow the links yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

The only insular mindset here is your own. You just don't get it because you haven't wanted to since the start. These hordes of people who are turned away by the protests, who are "taking a dim view" of their agenda? They do not exist. Stop trying to invent them so you can act like your not-exactly-trustworthy issues with the movement are some sort of majority view.

Spoken by someone who doesn't even live in the country.

[Merentha]

That kind of thing makes me wonder exactly who the protestors are trying to draw to their side, and why they believe their tactics are the best means to accomplish that. Things like that are going to piss off average people who are just trying to get around. So why do it?

Yeah, pissing off average people who are just trying to get around never draws attention to a protest and certainly shouldn't be done. They should protest in some small, out of the way area where nobody has to pay attention to them.

http://www.crmvet.org/crmpics/nashv1.jpg

[Shryke]

Sure it did. That's why they're drawing 100,000 a day marching down Wall Street.

Yeah, that's why they totally aren't gaining support in tons of cities both around the US and around the globe. That's why they totally aren't all over the news. That's totally why politicians aren't talking about it.

Please FLOW, your desperate attempts to come up with new excuses why OWS doesn't matter are getting tired.

[Crazydog7]

Spoken by someone who doesn't even live in the country.

Ah yes Xenophobia that's what any thread needs.

Yeah don't get me started on those Goddamn foreigners. How dare those insolent bastards have an opinion on how the world's greatest military power is run.