Verboten Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 One of the things that struck me with the Tyrells is a comparison to when Lysa told Sansa that she was going to have a grateful and obedient wife for her son. I think the Tyrells wanted exactly the same thing, they just had more social finesse than to say so straight out (and thus would have been more effective in accomplishing their goal). I don't like the way they treated Sansa, at all. And they might not be deploying Hoat and Gregor, but Tarly isn't that much better. The whole Lysa vibe about "dwarf's leavings" just oozed off them too, when they got interested in her again because they heard she was still virgin. :stillsick:I was under the impression that they got interested in her because the marriage wasn't consumated, meaning it could be legally annulled and she could be snuck out of KL and married to Willas should anything happen to Tyrion, such as being convicted of murdering his nephew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I was under the impression that they got interested in her because the marriage wasn't consumated, meaning it could be legally annulled and she could be snuck out of KL and married to Willas should anything happen to Tyrion, such as being convicted of murdering his nephew.Yup, that or a Council of the Faith and then poor Sansa is in the same blood position as before almost, the only difference would be she is away from Joff, and a Great Lady of a powerful house. She would have no power in that role though and would be reduced to a hostage with a claim and becoming (to quote Cersei) a brood mare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev yn Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I was under the impression that they got interested in her because the marriage wasn't consumated, meaning it could be legally annulled and she could be snuck out of KL and married to Willas should anything happen to Tyrion, such as being convicted of murdering his nephew.It wouldn't matter if the marriage was annulled should Tyrion be convicted of murdering his nephew. He'd be short (heh) a head, and she'd be free to remarry. But the point being made is that they didn't care about Sansa as a person, nor about helping her for the sake of helping a 13 year old girl. They just wanted to abscond with her so they could claim Winterfell. That is why people say they are no better than the Lannisters in this situation, and I'm happy to see more people opining in that manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartsansa Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 This is all very true, yet at the same time, I don't think this is specific to the Tyrells or the Lannisters; it is just the way things are done. Young highborn maidens are valuable commodities that are traded around to secure alliances, land, status, etc. Stannis/Celyse, Lysa Arryn, the Westerlings, Freys and even the Starks - pretty just about every house operates this way. Sansa's situation is more sympathetic mainly because we empathize with her POV, and her uniquely screwed up situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound's She-wolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Yup, that or a Council of the Faith and then poor Sansa is in the same blood position as before almost, the only difference would be she is away from Joff, and a Great Lady of a powerful house. She would have no power in that role though and would be reduced to a hostage with a claim and becoming (to quote Cersei) a brood mare. Most of her options end up as Sansa being a Lady of a powerful house but without power and essentially a brood mare. It almost comes down to which House is less objectionable. It wouldn't matter if the marriage was annulled should Tyrion be convicted of murdering his nephew. He'd be short (heh) a head, and she'd be free to remarry. But the point being made is that they didn't care about Sansa as a person, nor about helping her for the sake of helping a 13 year old girl. They just wanted to abscond with her so they could claim Winterfell. That is why people say they are no better than the Lannisters in this situation, and I'm happy to see more people opining in that manner. Have we met anybody who doesn't want to use Sansa for her claim? I haven't seen anyone except the Hound who was interested in helping her without thinking about her claim. Crap, EHS beat me to the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev yn Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 This is all very true, yet at the same time, I don't think this is specific to the Tyrells or the Lannisters; it is just the way things are done. Have we met anybody who doesn't want to use Sansa for her claim? I haven't seen anyone except the Hound who was interested in helping her without thinking about her claim. I hope I don't seem to be disagreeing? But that said, one doesn't get to pretend that Willas and the Tyrells are a dream, and the Lannisters are pure evil and just users. The former are just doing what nobles do, as are the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Generally the terms would have been better if Ned was still alive and if it weren't for Cat's Southron ambitions, Sansa and Arya may have had marriages to Ned's Bannermen. Actually Domeric sounded like a nice match for Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 I just had a disturbing thought- could Mace Tyrell have been sexually abusing Margaery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I still really like the schemeing old woman, but I wouldn't want to be related to her by marriage. Her children and grandchildren she'd protect to the best of her abilities, but being married into the fam-I think you'd be expendable and replaceable if you cross her.No, really, why should anyone want that, she despises her daughter-in-law, but then maybe her daughter in law IS an idiot. But I like her for her own right, not because she is related to anyone, I want relevant characters to cross poisoned little toys with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound's She-wolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I hope I don't seem to be disagreeing? But that said, one doesn't get to pretend that Willas and the Tyrells are a dream, and the Lannisters are pure evil and just users. The former are just doing what nobles do, as are the latter.The former are doing it in a more genteel way whereas the latter mudered her whole family, kept her as a prisoner, allowed her to be sexually and emotionally abused and then forcibly married her to a deformed drunk dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verboten Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I just had a disturbing thought- could Mace Tyrell have been sexually abusing Margaery?This actually makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound's She-wolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I want relevant characters to cross poisoned little toys with her. Yes, this very much. I would like to see a Varys, LF, QoT cage match. No holds barred.To the painful death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Yes, this very much. I would like to see a Varys, LF, QoT cage match. No holds barred.To the painful death.Ooohhhhh yeeeeeaaah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound's She-wolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Maybe that will actually determine who wins the Game of Thrones, whomever is on the winning side of a Varys, LF, QoT showdown gets the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I just had a disturbing thought- could Mace Tyrell have been sexually abusing Margaery?Well it was a surprise even to Cersei that Margery and all three of her cousins didn't have their maidenhood's intact. I had just assumed it was Renly (in Margery's case), but there maybe more to it. Pycelle never did say why Margery wanted the Moontea and who it was for. BTW Does anyone else see the irony that she and her cousins stayed in the Maiden Vault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I just had a disturbing thought- could Mace Tyrell have been sexually abusing Margaery? And you suspect that why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 This actually makes sense. My reasoning for it might not though :) But here goes: it's really just a sense of unease about the whole family, especially the role that Margaery has been made to play as the sacrificial lamb for all the Tyrell schemes (yes, I've come to see her as being somewhat more of a victim than I previously did).. There is obviously something going on there... otherwise I don't think GRRM would have set it up these hints about the moontea, Marg's virginity and now her upcoming trial. Mace himself seems particularly frantic about it, and even though this is understandable, if he knows that Marg has nothing to hide, why be so worried about it? Again, just a feeling that something is rotten in Highgarden. Marg's close relationship with Loras also highlights that whilst it may not be incest between the two, she could be leaning on him for support... Anyways, just conjecture.. but I wouldn't put anything past Mace, and Craster can't be the only man in Westeros perving on his daughters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Yes, this very much. I would like to see a Varys, LF, QoT cage match. No holds barred.To the painful death. The QoT would totally win. She'd shame the other two into feeling like little boys who were being disrespectful to their mothers, and they'd surrender and walk away red-faced and shuffling their feet. Because she is Just. That. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartsansa Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 The former are doing it in a more genteel way whereas the latter mudered her whole family, kept her as a prisoner, allowed her to be sexually and emotionally abused and then forcibly married her to a deformed drunk dwarf. yeah.. compared to the Lannisters, the Tyrells ARE a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound's She-wolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Well it was a surprise even to Cersei that Margery and all three of her cousins didn't have their maidenhood's intact. I had just assumed it was Renly (in Margery's case), but there maybe more to it. Pycelle never did say why Margery wanted the Moontea and who it was for. BTW Does anyone else see the irony that she and her cousins stayed in the Maiden Vault?I had always assumed the moon tea was for one of her cousins, but then it never made sense to me why the Queen (and not one of her cousins) would be asking for moon tea. No matter who the tea was for it would have been better to have someone else ask for it so as not to embarrass Margaery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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