The fallacy of basing fantasy on our history

[lyvyathan]

There is a tendency in fantasy to insert historical aspects in a pick and choose manner. Element A, B and C are welcome (the cool stuff), elements X, Y and Z are ignored. I'm not saying that's good or bad, because the point isn't to have fantasy as historically correct as possible. But it's a trend nonetheless.

I agree. The problem with ignoring history is that you can get absurd outcomes in fantasy. History is often created through logical outcomes.

Like you said - if Dragons were very numerous, then the need for castles would diminish.

Or if people could fire multiple projectile weapons that can cut through steel armor with ease, then weapons like light sabres (lol), and Storm Trooper body armor would be irrelevant. haha.

[Antonius Pius]

A lot of hist fic does the same and I think this has to do with it being really hard to get across to the reader just how utterly bizarre the past is.

I agree. The problem with ignoring history is that you can get absurd outcomes in fantasy. History is often created through logical outcomes.

Conflating these points, being very severe on a realistic historical basis/logical outcomes would make a lot of fantasy unreadable. And would make historical figures almost entirely unappealing. On our own board, Kevan Lannister shares the blame for the burning of the Riverlands. In the Middle Ages, burning and pillaging was a common enough method to try to subdue political opponents, yet it would make a character responsible for something like that immediately unsympathetic.

Having said that, if a fantasy's setting historical perspective is improperly thought through or simply really unrealistic, it annoys the hell out of me.

Imagine if historians 200 years from now - tried to analyze our history using "Hello", "Women's Weekly", etc..

I would pity those poor historians... ;)

[lyvyathan]

Conflating these points, being very severe on a realistic historical basis/logical outcomes would make a lot of fantasy unreadable. And would make historical figures almost entirely unappealing. On our own board, Kevan Lannister shares the blame for the burning of the Riverlands. In the Middle Ages, burning and pillaging was a common enough method to try to subdue political opponents, yet it would make a character responsible for something like that immediately unsympathetic.

Mayhaps if they burnt the said village in a friendly manner it would be alright then? Seems like a Monthy Python moment there.

I forgot about Kevan. Thanks for brining them up in case I start thinking pleasant thots about him.

Richard the Lionheart and Boadicea also did pretty horrific "war crimes" - come to think of it, if we applied our 21st sensibilities to Allied Strategy in WWII, we wouldn't have used the mass bombing campaigns, etc.. and the Nazis would probably still be in charge of Germany now.

Having said that, if a fantasy's setting historical perspective is improperly thought through or simply really unrealistic, it annoys the hell out of me.

I would pity those poor historians... ;)

I agree too... by any chance do you also dislike Manga fantasys? You know the ones where the Nazis are the cool dudes and where characters fight with sword and lance in an age of giant space robots?

A lot of things annoy me - even the 300 movie - where the Spartans fought melee style like Roman gladiators.

I hope HBO would do a series where the fighting was more historically based - and we get to see the Hoplite Phalanx working and fighting in a more accurate light.

I would pity those poor historians... ;)

Haha, I pity the poor students who have to sit through the 20th century history lectures and listen why Christina Aguilara and Madonna represented the epitome of the empowerment of women and not Britney Spears.

[Antonius Pius]

Richard the Lionheart and Boadicea also did pretty horrific "war crimes" - come to think of it, if we applied our 21st sensibilities to Allied Strategy in WWII, we wouldn't have used the mass bombing campaigns, etc.. and the Nazis would probably still be in charge of Germany now.

Well, Richard the Lionheart did give Saladin fair warning... Saladin thought Richard was bluffing and called his bluff, only to find out he wasn't. (If you are referring to the incident I think you're referring to.)

But the underlined bit is exactly the point. A lot of the violence (for an obvious example) would make historical figures entirely unappealing. The casual way in which the Romans sold their vanquished enemies as slaves, or the entire concept of human slavery, makes the people that practice it severely uncool. And then there is the strangeness of the past (which Horza already mentioned), that would make it simply weird. Like having saint's namedays as referencepoints instead of a calendar.

I agree too... by any chance do you also dislike Manga fantasys? You know the ones where the Nazis are the cool dudes and where characters fight with sword and lance in an age of giant space robots?

Can't say that I do, sorry. I've only seen a few manga films, a long time ago, and I never read any.

A lot of things annoy me - even the 300 movie - where the Spartans fought melee style like Roman gladiators.

Never mind unarmoured... But 300 is so over the top, it's hard to expect too much realism.

I hope HBO would do a series where the fighting was more historically based - and we get to see the Hoplite Phalanx working and fighting in a more accurate light.

I remember seeing a documentary (?) on National Geographic about how the extras were traindes as hoplites for the movie Alexander. Some old drill sergeant was putting them through the routines. Quite funny.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Arthmail,

So, this is partly a look at women in fantasy. I know it has been beat to death before, especially in the Bakker threads, but i've been doing some reading that warrents a return to this subject. Of course, it can be directly applied to other areas where fantasy authors steal swathes of historical points without perhaps fully understanding the reasons why.

Now, i'm reading a book called: The Civilization of the Middle Ages, by Norman Cantor. Its a remarkable book, if a little dry, dealing with the rise of the Catholic church during the roman empire and beyond. Now, i reached a page that struck me as particularily interesting. In Frankish society, previoius to the year 700, women enjoyed a considerable amount of freedom compared to other nations. These were of course noble women, or freeman, soldiers, and landlords - not serfs. According to the book these women: "were more independant of their fathers and brothers, more capable of making decisions about their lives, and allowed to hold landed property and to play a role in political life than in Roman times." The women of the Merovingian family, the royal Frankish family, were equally capable of violence and scheming as their male couterparts.

This independence faded with the continued growth of the catholic church, which wanted women chaste and virginial and useless. The church also worked to encourage wealthy women, such as the sisters of kings, to start nunnery's with their wealth, thereby increasing the wealth of the church.

So, all of that being said, i return to the topic of women in fantasy. Often we want to see reflections of our world in the books that we read. But how worthy a source is that without the institutions around that helped to shape our world. Without a Catholic church, why could women not have found greater independence sooner? If there is magic, why would technology advance the same way?

I think without a simliar institution as the church in a fantasy world, at least in a fantasy society based upon the western world, chances would be good for strong and independent women that actually make sense within the context of the world and the story.

Thoughts?

I read Cantor's Book, In the Wake of the Plague. I found him to be incredibly irritating. His drool little comments about people in the middle ages. It pulled me out of the information he was trying to convey. I've never read anything else by him.

[lyvyathan]

Well, Richard the Lionheart did give Saladin fair warning... Saladin thought Richard was bluffing and called his bluff, only to find out he wasn't. (If you are referring to the incident I think you're referring to.)

But the underlined bit is exactly the point. A lot of the violence (for an obvious example) would make historical figures entirely unappealing. The casual way in which the Romans sold their vanquished enemies as slaves, or the entire concept of human slavery, makes the people that practice it severely uncool. And then there is the strangeness of the past (which Horza already mentioned), that would make it simply weird. Like having saint's namedays as referencepoints instead of a calendar.

Yes Richard did. ... the captives at Acre wasn't it? That seems to be a popular talking point these days.

Haha, Romans and their slaves. Have you seen HBO's Rome by the way?

Nevermind the strangeness of the ancient past, I look back at the way the Euro debt crisis is spiraling out of control and I wonder what the Medici family would make of it.

[Antonius Pius]

Yes Richard did. ... the captives at Acre wasn't it? That seems to be a popular talking point these days.

Yes, that's the one.

Haha, Romans and their slaves. Have you seen HBO's Rome by the way?

I did, and I loved it.

[lyvyathan]

So, this is partly a look at women in fantasy. I know it has been beat to death before, especially in the Bakker threads, but i've been doing some reading that warrents a return to this subject. Of course, it can be directly applied to other areas where fantasy authors steal swathes of historical points without perhaps fully understanding the reasons why.

Now, i'm reading a book called: The Civilization of the Middle Ages, by Norman Cantor. Its a remarkable book, if a little dry, dealing with the rise of the Catholic church during the roman empire and beyond. Now, i reached a page that struck me as particularily interesting. In Frankish society, previoius to the year 700, women enjoyed a considerable amount of freedom compared to other nations. These were of course noble women, or freeman, soldiers, and landlords - not serfs. According to the book these women: "were more independant of their fathers and brothers, more capable of making decisions about their lives, and allowed to hold landed property and to play a role in political life than in Roman times." The women of the Merovingian family, the royal Frankish family, were equally capable of violence and scheming as their male couterparts.

This independence faded with the continued growth of the catholic church, which wanted women chaste and virginial and useless. The church also worked to encourage wealthy women, such as the sisters of kings, to start nunnery's with their wealth, thereby increasing the wealth of the church.

So, all of that being said, i return to the topic of women in fantasy. Often we want to see reflections of our world in the books that we read. But how worthy a source is that without the institutions around that helped to shape our world. Without a Catholic church, why could women not have found greater independence sooner? If there is magic, why would technology advance the same way?

I think without a simliar institution as the church in a fantasy world, at least in a fantasy society based upon the western world, chances would be good for strong and independent women that actually make sense within the context of the world and the story.

Thoughts?

I'm not trying to defend the Catholic Church but have you considered whether Christianity was actually an empowering tool for women?

What does Christianity preach:

1. that a man should keep one wife. Monogamy is actually beneficial for women's rights.

2. that man and women were equal in the sight of God.

Galatians 3:26 -29.

²⁶ So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, ²⁷ for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. ²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ²⁹ If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Think about it - the vast majority of societies are patriarchies. The status of women in even non-Christian lands in the Middle East, China, Japan, etc.. was pretty horrible if not worse than in Europe. (I'm not saying that Medieval Europe was paradise for women - please no. The reading of the history of Witch Burning in Europe) still scars me.

But the seeds of modern day equal rights for women are found in the Bible.

Mayhaps its no coincidence that women rights and suffrage came full force in Western Societies and not the East.

[lyvyathan]

Yes, that's the one.

I did, and I loved it.

Brilliant show I agree. Seemed to run out of steam in Season 2 though.

[lyvyathan]

I remember seeing a documentary (?) on National Geographic about how the extras were traindes as hoplites for the movie Alexander. Some old drill sergeant was putting them through the routines. Quite funny.

I think that was in the "Makings of"

Nat Geo or Discovery did do a documentary on the 300 Spartans+ allies. But it felt like a fashion show for some reason.

I want to see a "300" movie where you see the power of the phalanx come to life, the way the shields protected their brothers, the way the spears stabbed back and forth - injuring and maiming their foe, the way the men at the back pushed forward to prevent the front ranks from giving way (we see a bit of this in HBO's Rome actually)... the way the battle looks like a group of bad ass riot police hurl back a bunch of rioters.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I think that was in the "Makings of"

Nat Geo or Discovery did do a documentary on the 300 Spartans+ allies. But it felt like a fashion show for some reason.

I want to see a "300" movie where you see the power of the phalanx come to life, the way the shields protected their brothers, the way the spears stabbed back and forth - injuring and maiming their foe, the way the men at the back pushed forward to prevent the front ranks from giving way (we see a bit of this in HBO's Rome actually)... the way the battle looks like a group of bad ass riot police hurl back a bunch of rioters.

But there won't be any death or bloodletting, right? There are kids watching!

[Ouroboros]

Paul Kearney did a very remarkable job recreating the Greek fighting styles and warfare in Ten Thousand. Unfortunately formation warfare isn't 'dramatic enough' for film and tv.

[Arthmail]

I'm not trying to defend the Catholic Church but have you considered whether Christianity was actually an empowering tool for women?

What does Christianity preach:

1. that a man should keep one wife. Monogamy is actually beneficial for women's rights.

2. that man and women were equal in the sight of God.

Galatians 3:26 -29.

²⁶ So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, ²⁷ for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. ²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ²⁹ If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Think about it - the vast majority of societies are patriarchies. The status of women in even non-Christian lands in the Middle East, China, Japan, etc.. was pretty horrible if not worse than in Europe. (I'm not saying that Medieval Europe was paradise for women - please no. The reading of the history of Witch Burning in Europe) still scars me.

But the seeds of modern day equal rights for women are found in the Bible.

Mayhaps its no coincidence that women rights and suffrage came full force in Western Societies and not the East.

No. I would lay little that was good at the feet of the Catholic church.

[Johnny The Longshanks]

This is an interesting idea to think about but the biggest issue imo is that everything we know from the middle ages and earlier is based on very few sources, the merit of which are not extremely credible. That's the problem with history and how it applies to fiction we have very few ways of knowing what actually happened. Things like the attitude towards women within the church and elswhere are based on the perspective of people writing, which the majority of the time was the church and other ruling classes.

As has been mentioned on this thread already and by GRRM in interviews, any fiction is more representative of the period in which it was written than the period it portrays. We just don't have any other basis than what we're going through now ie any mysoginism is a contemporary issue.

[Spring Bass]

Conflating these points, being very severe on a realistic historical basis/logical outcomes would make a lot of fantasy unreadable. And would make historical figures almost entirely unappealing. On our own board, Kevan Lannister shares the blame for the burning of the Riverlands. In the Middle Ages, burning and pillaging was a common enough method to try to subdue political opponents, yet it would make a character responsible for something like that immediately unsympathetic.

Having said that, if a fantasy's setting historical perspective is improperly thought through or simply really unrealistic, it annoys the hell out of me.

We don't need it be severe, just reasonably consistent enough that we can ignore the inconsistent parts in favor of the story and characters. The latter part is the key, since I'm more likely to notice and dwell on bad world-building if the story and characters in a fantasy novel are bad.

More generally, it's nice to have a fantasy world that seems to "hang together", allowing you to examine and speculate about the setting as a world beyond simply being a place where the characters do stuff. The Martinworld from ASOIAF is like that, what with the speculation about the historical dates being unreliable (for example).

[lyvyathan]

But there won't be any death or bloodletting, right? There are kids watching!

Haha, I think there's more violence on the 5pm News these days.

Come to think of it the Nat Geo or Discovery or was it History Channel documentary - used a lot of bad CGI. It was a quickie doco job to cash in on the 300 movie phenomenon.

[lyvyathan]

Paul Kearney did a very remarkable job recreating the Greek fighting styles and warfare in Ten Thousand. Unfortunately formation warfare isn't 'dramatic enough' for film and tv.

Pardon me, but was Paul's work a movie .. a recent production?

I thought Rome did a good job of presenting formation warfare fighting - in Season 1, episode 1 they had a scene where you saw the Romans fighting the barbarians in formation and winning as a result- one legionaire breaks formation and does a "300" fighting style but gets caught out and punished. Then in Season 2 they had a scene where they showed the chaos of warfare and the "turtle" formation to evade the arrows. I thought both were very powerful dramatic scenes.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'm not trying to defend the Catholic Church but have you considered whether Christianity was actually an empowering tool for women?

What does Christianity preach:

1. that a man should keep one wife. Monogamy is actually beneficial for women's rights.

2. that man and women were equal in the sight of God.

Galatians 3:26 -29.

²⁶ So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, ²⁷ for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. ²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ²⁹ If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Think about it - the vast majority of societies are patriarchies. The status of women in even non-Christian lands in the Middle East, China, Japan, etc.. was pretty horrible if not worse than in Europe. (I'm not saying that Medieval Europe was paradise for women - please no. The reading of the history of Witch Burning in Europe) still scars me.

But the seeds of modern day equal rights for women are found in the Bible.

Mayhaps its no coincidence that women rights and suffrage came full force in Western Societies and not the East.

You make a fair point, but I wouldn't be so quick to give credit for the women's rights movement to Christianity, I mean Christianity's been around for almost 2000 years before the Suffrage movement. Sure the suffrage movement was tied to temperance, but it couldn't have happened without the greater economic development of the West, with the industrialization and increased that it entails.

[Ouroboros]

Pardon me, but was Paul's work a movie .. a recent production?

Its a book. Sorry if I got your hopes up.

[lyvyathan]

You make a fair point, but I wouldn't be so quick to give credit for the women's rights movement to Christianity, I mean Christianity's been around for almost 2000 years before the Suffrage movement. Sure the suffrage movement was tied to temperance, but it couldn't have happened without the greater economic development of the West, with the industrialization and increased that it entails.

Was suffrage tied to the temperance movement? Fellow travelers perhaps but I don't see the direct connection.

I agree with you there- industrialization, and modern capitalism etc.. has also contributed significantly to the empowerment of women.

Having said that one could point out to places like Japan, China and even India which have both experienced rapid industrialization but where the women rights are considerably lower than the West.

Buddhism, Taoism, Islam etc.. has also been around for a long while - but they have not produced the same level of female empowerment.

It was a common theme that in the 1980s, female graduate would often serve as glorified geishas, or serving ladies, in Japanese corporations. Why was that?

IMHO, Christianity serves as a bedrock for the humanitarian movements of our day. Individual liberties. Female rights. Democracy can be traced back to Christian roots, ie. the Bible.

There are of course several verses in the Bible that have teachings which may be construed as against those humanitarian principles. But taken as a whole, the Bible does (imho) lend more support to humanitarian ideals.

But we're getting OT now.