The fallacy of basing fantasy on our history

[lokisnow]

There are of course several verses in the Bible that have teachings which may be construed as against those humanitarian principles. But taken as a whole, the Bible does (imho) lend more support to humanitarian ideals.

But we're getting OT now.

By and large those NT verses are deutero-Pauline in origin (meaning they were written several hundred years after Paul's death) and were intended to specifically combat the threat of women gaining more authority and equality in the early christian church in Roman regions. In other words it is contradictory to the NT that was contemporaneous to Paul (cause we know Jesus doesn't matter much when it comes to doctrine, he's second fiddle to Paul). Later, the official church found these forgeries to have very convenient attitudes and adopted them into the canon.

[lyvyathan]

By and large those NT verses are deutero-Pauline in origin (meaning they were written several hundred years after Paul's death) and were intended to specifically combat the threat of women gaining more authority and equality in the early christian church in Roman regions. In other words it is contradictory to the NT that was contemporaneous to Paul (cause we know Jesus doesn't matter much when it comes to doctrine, he's second fiddle to Paul). Later, the official church found these forgeries to have very convenient attitudes and adopted them into the canon.

Thanks. It seems that you have read a lot in this. Can you recommend books that discuss the subject in detail?

[shadowbinding shoe]

Lyvyathan

Haha, I think there's more violence on the 5pm News these days.

Come to think of it the Nat Geo or Discovery or was it History Channel documentary - used a lot of bad CGI. It was a quickie doco job to cash in on the 300 movie phenomenon.

I have only three words for you: Xena Warrior Princess. Counter examples are needles in the bloodless haystack.

(It's all kind of ridiculous. Why have sharp-edged sword if you're only gonna use them as cudgels?)

[lyvyathan]

Lyvyathan

I have only three words for you: Xena Warrior Princess. Counter examples are needles in the bloodless haystack.

(It's all kind of ridiculous. Why have sharp-edged sword if you're only gonna use them as cudgels?)

I didn't watch the series. Her infamous screeching sounded more like finger nails on a chalk board.

Hell for historians must be a place where they have to watch re-runs of such shows and talk to idiots who think they're historically accurate.

[Verboten]

I think the issue here is world building, not history. If you create a world where magic is possible and dragons roam the skies, you shouldn't just copy and paste medieval England into your story. Innacurate history or interpretations of historical records are not needed for you to make a believale world. Though my definition of 'believable' is a lot different than nearly everyone I know because history is seriously weird. Especially what people assumed or thought back then. I actually have more of a problem with fantasy authors inserting modern worldviews into characters who live in what is essentially the dark ages with magic.

[lokisnow]

Thanks. It seems that you have read a lot in this. Can you recommend books that discuss the subject in detail?

http://www.amazon.com/Adam-Eve-Serpent-Politics-Christianity/dp/0679722327/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1319656995&sr=8-5

[Galactus]

One minor thing: Society wouldn't neccessarily look that much different if magic was real. (Depending on the magic)

Because throughout much of human history people *believed* magic was real, and structured their society as if it was.

[Shryke]

One minor thing: Society wouldn't neccessarily look that much different if magic was real. (Depending on the magic)

Because throughout much of human history people *believed* magic was real, and structured their society as if it was.

I think it's the millitary side of things that would change most if magic was demonstratibly useful in a big obvious way.

[frodostark]

http://www.amazon.co...19656995&sr=8-5

Of course, that's by Elaine Pagels, who's got a bit of a Gnostic axe to grind. It would be good to leaven that with some counterviews, like an evangelical seminarian's take on historical reliability (http://www.amazon.com/Text-New-Testament-Transmission-Restoration/dp/019516122X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319680641&sr=1-1) or Chadwick's non-Gnostic history of the Early Church (http://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-Penguin-History-v/dp/0140231994/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319680831&sr=1-1).

[lokisnow]

that book was written several years after Gnostic Gospels and I think she's modulated some of her views since then as the two read quite differently in terms of the reliance on the gnostic axe, as you put it.

I'd assume the evangelical isn't interested in facts (because that brand of religion never is) but I will check out the other.

[Gigei]

It's news to me that Europe has always been the best place for gender equality. There are other places in the world throughout history where women have enjoyed equal (okay, actually near-equal but that is true up to the present time) rights with men. If I were a rich, noble woman I'd much rather live in ancient Hawaiʻi than in Europe, for example. IMO, throughout history social status and wealth count for much more than gender in terms of quality of life.

[lokisnow]

yeah, but as interesting as it would be to live in a polyandry society like ancient Hawai'i, you're still living in Hawaii, it's not the best example, because given the choice of where in the ancient world to live, I think 99.99% of people would take Hawai'i.

[Sarge]

You missed the point.

No.

[Gigei]

yeah, but as interesting as it would be to live in a polyandry society like ancient Hawai'i, you're still living in Hawaii, it's not the best example, because given the choice of where in the ancient world to live, I think 99.99% of people would take Hawai'i.

Exactly! Things like abundant natural resources (never any shortage of fresh food! wow!), climate, family status, etc would count for more than gender parity although it is good to note that there are actually many parts of the world where men and women have close to equal status. For example, this resource http://www.weforum.o...obal-gender-gap shows that gender parity in the Philippines and Lesotho is higher than in many developed and wealthy countries. In fact, I just recently read a report that found that the Philippines is the only country in the world where there is gender parity in senior management. But I'm pretty sure women would rather live in a stable, clean, wealthy country than in a poor one.

Anyway that is offtopic, it just irritates me when arrogant people think their culture is the best throughout the entire world history. There are many great places all over the world. Europe does not have a monopoly when it comes to women's rights.

[aimlessgun]

I agree with all this, and I actually made that point up-thread. Reliable, cheap teleportation means that other means of long-range travel are going to go undeveloped (unless there is also a reliable way to block teleportation, at which point some of it will be developed for military purposes). They might not even develop most means of short-range transportation. Why own a car if you can simply teleport from your home to your workplace? Why ship goods by car, train, or boat, when you could literally teleport them from one factory, to another factory, to the store where it's being sold (or even into the home of the person purchasing the goods)?

Reliable cheap teleportation would completely change the very foundations how of people conceptualized space and distance. Their attitudes and modes of thought on the subject would be unrecognizable. It would be a pretty interesting fantasy to write, actually. It would be fun to figure out the longest unit of 'real' distance in that society. Maybe it's as small as a large ballroom: nobody will even think of distances longer than that because beyond that point you teleport. Or think of what exploring would be like in that world, where your sailing ship is just a vehicle to move your teleport gate around and you port back home every few hours to eat or sleep.

There has been a lot of scifi that addresses this in various forms though.