A nagging doubt regarding the direwolves

[Errant Bard]

My nagging question about the direwolves has to do with a disturbing pattern: if one of their owners separate themselves from their wolf, ignore the signals the wolves give or lock them up / chain them, things turn for the worse.

But on the other hand, things turned for the worse for both Arya and Sansa because they had those wolves near them.

I have a little problem with those broad affirmations concerning the symbolism of having a big bad wolf at one's side: for one thing, having a wolf will necessarily protect one from experiencing some mishaps on a pure physical level, for another, beyond that, having a wolf has already proved to be detrimental (see Arya and Sansa) or ineffectual (in Robb's case, he gets to sleep with Jeyne, or declare himself king in the North before ignoring the beast... ignoring him at the Red Wedding comes after, and is largely incidental)... And then, some good things even happen to our wolf-less girls.

The argument seems to require some pretty selective reading.

[FanTasy]

But on the other hand, things turned for the worse for both Arya and Sansa because they had those wolves near them.

I have a little problem with those broad affirmations concerning the symbolism of having a big bad wolf at one's side: for one thing, having a wolf will necessarily protect one from experiencing some mishaps on a pure physical level, for another, beyond that, having a wolf has already proved to be detrimental (see Arya and Sansa) or ineffectual (in Robb's case, he gets to sleep with Jeyne, or declare himself king in the North before ignoring the beast... ignoring him at the Red Wedding comes after, and is largely incidental)... And then, some good things even happen to our wolf-less girls.

The argument seems to require some pretty selective reading.

Hi Errant Bard. I agree with the part in your post about too broad affirmations.

When I saw the TV show and read the first book I thought: nice touch, finding direwolves for the kids of a House with the sigil of a direwolf. And thought no more about it.

Until I read and saw in interviews with GRRM how important this particular scene was for him.

So the wolves are more important to the story than I first thought.

They are obviously more than bodyguards to keep the Stark kids out of danger.

In the re-read I paid more attention to the wolves, hence the 'disturbing pattern' I noticed.

[headtrip_honey]

Sansa lost her direwolf when she betrayed her family on the King's Road because she chose Joff over her sister. This brings up an interesting point about Sansa potentially reclaiming her identity, with Lady lost to her forever.

I think this is a really shitty reading. Now, to be clear, I'm not calling YOU shitty, I'm saying that if this is what GRRM intended, then it is very, very shitty.

She didn't choose one over the other.

During the attack, she was an eleven year old girl who was TERRIFIED, and shouting at them to "Stop it." And when called to testify said that she couldn't remember what happened.

She was very clearly trying to NOT choose sides.

So if the punishment for trying to stay neutral in a disagreement between your annoying little sister and your future husband is to lose your beloved pet, then...ugh. Shitty, is all I can say.

[Errant Bard]

Until I read and saw in interviews with GRRM how important this particular scene was for him.

So the wolves are more important to the story than I first thought.

They are obviously more than bodyguards to keep the Stark kids out of danger.

A scene being important doesn't mean every symbolism has to be attached to it. The wolves are important: they, simply said, are the tool Martin uses to make his kid heroes better than the rest: better at surviving, linked to magic, vessels of prophecy, with adamantium will, and recipient of Deus Ex Machina. They are also easy vectors of story steering. But beyond that, in a meta sense? I see nothing obvious. Robb's "King in the North" was important, it didn't need any meta symbolism.

[Queensmoot]

I think this is a really shitty reading. Now, to be clear, I'm not calling YOU shitty, I'm saying that if this is what GRRM intended, then it is very, very shitty.

She didn't choose one over the other.

During the attack, she was an eleven year old girl who was TERRIFIED, and shouting at them to "Stop it." And when called to testify said that she couldn't remember what happened.

She was very clearly trying to NOT choose sides.

So if the punishment for trying to stay neutral in a disagreement between your annoying little sister and your future husband is to lose your beloved pet, then...ugh. Shitty, is all I can say.

I agree entirely actually, completely harsh and unfair - but so is GRRM. I really think he is that cruel. I've always really liked Sansa, and I can't say that I wouldn't have done exactly what she did, at 11 I almost surely would have.She didn't intend to choose, she was trying not to. Poor girl just went for a walk and shit hit the fan. She just tried to make everyone happy. Just as your average teenage boy would have done what Robb did, and he paid an incredibly unfair price for his actions too.

That said, I still think there is Stark/ Old Gods redemption/reclaimation for Sansa, and I really hope to see her become the Lady of Winterfell. Maybe to replace her wolf she can get herself a Hound. :D

[FanTasy]

A scene being important doesn't mean every symbolism has to be attached to it. The wolves are important: they, simply said, are the tool Martin uses to make his kid heroes better than the rest: better at surviving, linked to magic, vessels of prophecy, with adamantium will, and recipient of Deus Ex Machina. They are also easy vectors of story steering. But beyond that, in a meta sense? I see nothing obvious. Robb's "King in the North" was important, it didn't need any meta symbolism.

Thanks for your input. I am going to re-read and re-view the interviews with GRRM.

[headtrip_honey]

I agree entirely actually, completely harsh and unfair - but so is GRRM. I really think he is that cruel. I've always really liked Sansa, and I can't say that I wouldn't have done exactly what she did, at 11 I almost surely would have.She didn't intend to choose, she was trying not to. Poor girl just went for a walk and shit hit the fan. She just tried to make everyone happy. Just as your average teenage boy would have done what Robb did, and he paid an incredibly unfair price for his actions too.

That said, I still think there is Stark/ Old Gods redemption/reclaimation for Sansa, and I really hope to see her become the Lady of Winterfell. Maybe to replace her wolf she can get herself a Hound. :D

Glad we agree.

All hail Sansa, Queen in the North, the First of Her Name! ::cough::

That my incredibly optimistic hope, anyway.

[HashRouge]

I agree entirely actually, completely harsh and unfair - but so is GRRM. I really think he is that cruel. I've always really liked Sansa, and I can't say that I wouldn't have done exactly what she did, at 11 I almost surely would have.She didn't intend to choose, she was trying not to. Poor girl just went for a walk and shit hit the fan. She just tried to make everyone happy. Just as your average teenage boy would have done what Robb did, and he paid an incredibly unfair price for his actions too.

That said, I still think there is Stark/ Old Gods redemption/reclaimation for Sansa, and I really hope to see her become the Lady of Winterfell. Maybe to replace her wolf she can get herself a Hound. :D

I wish I'd written this post. It's like a neat summery of what I think, but I can't express it so well :D

[1234567]

If all the direwolves some how link to the personality / fate of the Stark kids then Sansa's case is an interesting one.

She names her Direwolf Lady (very much like she is herself). Lady is then killed by her father. Later Robb disinherits her. Depending on what his will said, it may specifically mention her being disinherited in favour of Jon and because the other kids are presumed dead. Ergo if the other kids turn up, they have not been disinherited.

This may mean that Sansa is metaphorically speaking no longer one of the pack and as Lady was killed, so might her existence as a Stark Lady end.

She is now taking on a new persona and may indeed find ,once she hears that she no longer has a claim, that there are different options ahead of her.

After all she did get on with that dog on the Fingers and dogs travel in packs as well. :)

[Errant Bard]

This may mean that Sansa is metaphorically speaking no longer one of the pack and as Lady was killed, so might her existence as a Stark Lady end.

What does this mean, exactly?

[1234567]

What does this mean, exactly?

Oh dear the power of English has left me today!

Sansa was very much the Lady of the pack. Arya is like Nymeria, Bran may help Summer to return, Shaggydog and Rickon are both wild and unkempt and if R+L=J is true, then Jon is the Ghost from the past.

So when Sansa didn't choose between Joff and Arya, and her Direwolf was killed as a result (foreshadowing that she may not have a future as a High Lady and that she may cease to be a Stark).

Again when she was forced to marry Tyrion, her position as a member of the Stark pack is removed by her brother Robb. She is effectively cut off from the rest of her pack and the North. She is no longer considered a Stark, but a Lannister.

Now she is Alayne Stone and with no home or pack to return to she may choose to stay Alayne Stone. So both her and Lady are no longer part of the pack.

Did that make any sense?

[Errant Bard]

Oh dear the power of English has left me today!

no, no, I was just asking for further clarification on what it meant to "metaphorically speaking no longer [being] one of the pack" or ending "her existence as a Stark Lady".

It's still not too clear, I must say. From what I gather, for you this is merely not being in line for Winterfell. But it seems odd to blow it up out of all proportion, if so: sure Robb maybe made a will disinheriting her, but that doesn't really hamper her lady-like behaviour or her chances to get the North any more than Arya's estrangement or Bran's disappearance do.

ETA: That "Stark pack" idea never made too much sense to me. In the end it does not represent anything. The kids are humans, not wolves, and they are all separated anyhow.

[kissdbyfire]

Oh dear the power of English has left me today!

Sansa was very much the Lady of the pack. Arya is like Nymeria, Bran may help Summer to return, Shaggydog and Rickon are both wild and unkempt and if R+L=J is true, then Jon is the Ghost from the past.

So when Sansa didn't choose between Joff and Arya, and her Direwolf was killed as a result (foreshadowing that she may not have a future as a High Lady and that she may cease to be a Stark).

Again when she was forced to marry Tyrion, her position as a member of the Stark pack is removed by her brother Robb. She is effectively cut off from the rest of her pack and the North. She is no longer considered a Stark, but a Lannister.

Now she is Alayne Stone and with no home or pack to return to she may choose to stay Alayne Stone. So both her and Lady are no longer part of the pack.

Did that make any sense?

I understand what you are saying. And I was thinking something a bit similar last night, actually. If there is indeed this type of link between the kids and the wolves, what you say seems possible. I think everything that has happened to her will be a major turning point for her character. I don't see her becoming Lady of Winterfell at all. I think she will, in time, find that all the fairy tale stuff is not that important after all. I think she may choose a very different path. She might have learned much and more Lady hadn't been killed - if she started warging, for instance.

[1234567]

@Errant Bard

Don't worry, I'm probably barking up the wrong tree. Basically I thought the death of Lady would see the end of her identity as a Stark and by remaining Alyane Stone, she is a bastard and not a Lady.

On a sidenote it I thought it was interesting that Cersei demanded Lady's death for someone else hurting Joff and now she wants Sansa dead for someone else killing Joff!

[kissdbyfire]

Sorry, can't edit my previous post. Meant to add:

"Sorry, poorly written and not clear what I mean. Need my computer. :-("

[ARYa_Nym]

GRRM gave a cryptic answer to this issue in '01. So in b/w the release of ASOS and AFFC.

"In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." (Note: I was hoping someone else would bring this up as I didn't want to do any hornblowing... since Terra brought it up, but didn't recall the wording I felt the need. If anyone remembers his words differently I'll gladly recant.)"

http://www.westeros....g_October_5_72/

The exact wording isn't documented though.

Oh, and here's another one:

"April 15, 2008

Future meetings, POVs, Arya’s role, Eastern lands, and Assassins

[Will Sandor and Sansa meet?]

Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.

"

http://www.westeros...._and_Assassins/

This is cryptic as well. The Hound is dead but Sandor is alive.

[Errant Bard]

I thought the death of Lady would see the end of her identity as a Stark

Right, I know. What I wanted to know was what "identity as a Stark" and like expressions actually meant.

All these theories are well and good, but they usually end with "she's no longer a Stark"... "part of the pack"... Ok, whatever you want, but what does it actually mean, when you get down to it? Usually it's "she's not like whatever I feel like defining the Stark group, but I will not give a definition because it's riddled with inconsistencies"

[1234567]

I guess I mean she's no longer identifying herself as a Stark, and she could actually start defining herself by a different identity and House entirely. As Jaime quipped, she should forget she ever was a Stark.

In ASOS she bitterly reflects that she has been made a Lannister, but in AFFC she is begining to forget who she is and refers to Sansa as being dead and there is only Alyane Stone.

[kissdbyfire]

Right, I know. What I wanted to know was what "identity as a Stark" and like expressions actually meant.

All these theories are well and good, but they usually end with "she's no longer a Stark"... "part of the pack"... Ok, whatever you want, but what does it actually mean, when you get down to it? Usually it's "she's not like whatever I feel like defining the Stark group, but I will not give a definition because it's riddled with inconsistencies"

I think about it in a broader sense, as in she will no longer want the things she initially did. She will no longer care for songs and knights. She was always dreaming of knights, and I think in the end she'll find herself and her happiness and identity with the only man who cares nothing about knighthood etc. She becomes a very different person.

Again, sorry if not clear and poorly written.

[Lummel]

Isn't that the same as Arya is doing, or as Jon is trying to do?

We can't seriously say that Sansa is forgetting that she is a Stark when Littlefinger's promise to her of marriage to Harry the Heir and claiming the North is based on her being a Stark.