A nagging doubt regarding the direwolves

[kissdbyfire]

Isn't that the same as Arya is doing, or as Jon is trying to do?

We can't seriously say that Sansa is forgetting that she is a Stark when Littlefinger's promise to her of marriage to Harry the Heir and claiming the North is based on her being a Stark.

Yes, and one big difference is that Jon and Arya still have their direwolves - a fact I see as something that will prevent them from ever being truly disconnected from their Stark identities. Also, I really don't think LF's plans will come to fruition.

[FanTasy]

It is tempting to see a metaphor hiding beneath every bed and in every shadow when I read about the relationships of the Stark-kids with their wolves and with each other.

But as has been stated before: the wolves are important characters and they have a storyline of their own, but they are instrumental to what happens with their owners. The arcs of the Stark-kids are of course greatly influenced by other humans and by developments in the bigger picture, and by their own behaviour and choices.

I understand the concept of a Stark-pack as compared to the concept of a wolfpack. But the wolves are no longer a pack because they went with their owners and the humans got separated from each other. It is not the other way around.

The Stark-kids were a family and it seemingly was a close family who liked each other. So they sometimes think about their 'pack'.

And family is I think an important concept in the books, next to duty and honor.

The Night Watch are brothers, the Kings Guard too. Even Tywin Lannister sees the son he despises but could not prove that he was not 'his', as clan, as pack. One of the most chilling things in the books is that Randyll Tarly did not do so with the son he did not like. For that he is my No. 1 Creep in the books.

It is described that one of the wolves senses his brothers en sisters and in that sense roughly knows where they are - and that he knows if they are alive. Their nature is to live in a pack. We know that Nymeria and Summer succeeded in forming a new pack of their own, although with 'cousins', ordinary wolves.

The direwolves have an 'advantage': they still have a connection to their original pack, while most of the Stark-kids think their family is gone or lost to hem, that they are alone in the world. With the exception of Bran, who knows - but interestingly by means of his wolf - that Jon is still alive.

I do hope that in the next book we will have a p.o.v. Osha, so we learn something about Rickon en Shaggydog. GRRM said somewhere that there was no Rickon p.o.v. because he could not see a p.o.v. by a four year old. So my hopes are with Osha. But of course the next thing we hear about Rickon and Shaggydog could as well be that they are dead, or one of them. No one is safe.

[Tini]

Sansa has become more of a Stark than she was when Lady was still alive. She still thinks of her direwolf, so the wolf never really left her.

And I certainly hope that Littlefinger's plans fail. They are not sound.

[ARYa_Nym]

Nymeria has acquired a new pack. There's no telling if she will go back to her old one at this stage. Arya tried to find a new pack as well with Hot Pie and Gendry. That didn't work out so well. Arya's wolf resembles her namesake. If Arya stays with the FM then her old pack can be lost to her forever.

Jon denied his nature as a skinchanger as both Varamyr and Mel noted and he tried to find new brothers with the NW.

"No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf."

Now he will live as Ghost. His spirit literally lives on after "death" like a Ghost.

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him."

[Pihla]

I think that in a way Sansa still has her Lady. She remembers her. Similarly Sansa built Winterfell around her with snow and became stronger.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes, and one big difference is that Jon and Arya still have their direwolves - a fact I see as something that will prevent them from ever being truly disconnected from their Stark identities. Also, I really don't think LF's plans will come to fruition.

IA. Nymeria and Needle will keep Arya from losing her identity. & in ADWD she figured out warging and learned Nymeria's location so there's interesting possibilities now. I don't think she will leave immediately. Jon's death will most likely depress her. She actually wanted to go to him and not Braavos but she didn't have enough money. In her view there would be no reason to back now. Perhaps the developments of Bran and Rickon will change her mind.

[kissdbyfire]

It is tempting to see a metaphor hiding beneath every bed and in every shadow when I read about the relationships of the Stark-kids with their wolves and with each other.

But as has been stated before: the wolves are important characters and they have a storyline of their own, but they are instrumental to what happens with their owners. The arcs of the Stark-kids are of course greatly influenced by other humans and by developments in the bigger picture, and by their own behaviour and choices.

I understand the concept of a Stark-pack as compared to the concept of a wolfpack. But the wolves are no longer a pack because they went with their owners and the humans got separated from each other. It is not the other way around.

The Stark-kids were a family and it seemingly was a close family who liked each other. So they sometimes think about their 'pack'.

And family is I think an important concept in the books, next to duty and honor.

The Night Watch are brothers, the Kings Guard too. Even Tywin Lannister sees the son he despises but could not prove that he was not 'his', as clan, as pack. One of the most chilling things in the books is that Randyll Tarly did not do so with the son he did not like. For that he is my No. 1 Creep in the books.

It is described that one of the wolves senses his brothers en sisters and in that sense roughly knows where they are - and that he knows if they are alive. Their nature is to live in a pack. We know that Nymeria and Summer succeeded in forming a new pack of their own, although with 'cousins', ordinary wolves.

The direwolves have an 'advantage': they still have a connection to their original pack, while most of the Stark-kids think their family is gone or lost to hem, that they are alone in the world. With the exception of Bran, who knows - but interestingly by means of his wolf - that Jon is still alive.

I do hope that in the next book we will have a p.o.v. Osha, so we learn something about Rickon en Shaggydog. GRRM said somewhere that there was no Rickon p.o.v. because he could not see a p.o.v. by a four year old. So my hopes are with Osha. But of course the next thing we hear about Rickon and Shaggydog could as well be that they are dead, or one of them. No one is safe.

The wolves still consider the others as 'their pack' when they sense them, I think.

From ADwD (as quoted upthread)

"“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees.

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself."

[Alexia]

I think that in a way Sansa still has her Lady. She remembers her. Similarly Sansa built Winterfell around her with snow and became stronger.

During the Battle of the Blackwater in her room, right before Sandor Clegane grabbed her, she whispered Lady's name to herself. Also, in AFFC, when she was descending the mountain she heard a wolf howl and it made her think of herself as Sansa.

The only Starkling whose ability to hang onto their Stark identity I am genuinely concerned for is Arya, and that is because she is undergoing a training process designed to strip her of her own identity and ties on a permanent basis. Sansa is in temporary hiding under a pseudonym and will soon be discovered or reveal herself, Jon has tried and failed to leave his ties behind (in fact, he may have died as a result of his inability to do so).

[FanTasy]

The wolves still consider the others as 'their pack' when they sense them, I think.

From ADwD (as quoted upthread)

"“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees.

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself."

You are right: they still hunt together, although they obviously are not at the same place. Thank you, I forgot about this passage in the books.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm anxious to know what little Rickon is up to with his wolf. Ghost gave us a glimpse. From Rickon's prediction of Ned's death I've suspected that he has green dreams or green sight.

Rickon:

"You let my father be," Rickon warned Luwin. "You let him be."

"Rickon," Bran said softly. "Father's not here."

"Yes he is. I saw him." Tears glistened on Rickon's face. "I saw him, last night."

"In your dreams . . . ?"

Rickon nodded. "You leave him be. You leave him be. He's coming home now, like he promised. He's coming home."

Bran:

"I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes...We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.."It was something to do about Jon, I think..."

He might grow up to be a powerful warg one day. I dunno.

[ARYa_Nym]

The only Starkling whose ability to hang onto their Stark identity I am genuinely concerned for is Arya, and that is because she is undergoing a training process designed to strip her of her own identity and ties on a permanent basis. Sansa is in temporary hiding under a pseudonym and will soon be discovered or reveal herself, Jon has tried and failed to leave his ties behind (in fact, he may have died as a result of his inability to do so).

Her skinchanging is only increasing which links her to her Stark heritage. The Kindly Man is probably suspicious as to how she knew that he was hitting her. If she wasn't continuing to have wolf dreams or if she got rid of Needle I would be worried.

[Gillio]

So if Arya links back up with Nymeria, she can find out where her brothers are, at least as far as the Direwolves can tell.

[Alexia]

Her skinchanging is only increasing which links her to her Stark heritage.

Skinchanging is not an exclusively Stark ability (see: Varamyr Sixskins) nor are all Starks skin changers (see: Stark, Eddard, Brandon, Lyanna, Rickard). I found myself very worried about little Arya after reading the final line of her final ADWD chapter.

Here's a question for you. She's been sent on an apprenticeship now and is leaving Braavos. Will she take Needle with her? I doubt it, somehow. And I'm sure the KoM knows full well that she kept Needle, and where it is too.

[ARYa_Nym]

Skinchanging is not an exclusively Stark ability (see: Varamyr Sixskins) nor are all Starks skin changers (see: Stark, Eddard, Brandon, Lyanna, Rickard). I found myself very worried about little Arya after reading the final line of her final ADWD chapter.

Here's a question for you. She's been sent on an apprenticeship now and is leaving Braavos. Will she take Needle with her? I doubt it, somehow. And I'm sure the KoM knows full well that she kept Needle, and where it is too.

Skinchanging is a First Men ability. Arya has the blood of the First Men by being a Stark.

She knows where Needle is. It's not about having it with her it's about what it represents. It's a remembrance of her past. She can't forget it as long as she knows where it is.

[kissdbyfire]

Sansa has become more of a Stark than she was when Lady was still alive. She still thinks of her direwolf, so the wolf never really left her.

And I certainly hope that Littlefinger's plans fail. They are not sound.

I agree, more or less. I think she hasn’t become more of a Stark yet. But I think that is what she will become as her arc develops. I think she had to shed her identity because of the circumstances, and this will lead to a change in her that will make her ‘more of a Stark’. And by more of a Stark I mean she will be more connected to her northern inheritance, the Old Gods, and even her siblings. If that makes any sense...

[FanTasy]

I agree, more or less. I think she hasn't become more of a Stark yet. But I think that is what she will become as her arc develops. I think she had to shed her identity because of the circumstances, and this will lead to a change in her that will make her 'more of a Stark'. And by more of a Stark I mean she will be more connected to her northern inheritance, the Old Gods, and even her siblings. If that makes any sense...

I find Sansa the most unstarkish of the lot. She seems to let others care for her, others steer her future, she follows and goes with the tide. Her direwolf was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest,the most gentle and trusting, as Ned saw just before he had to kill Lady in AGOT. He found the direwolf aptly named.But Sansa seems to develop in ASOS  - and I suspect she will in a way 'play' Littlefinger. She learns how to do this with Robin, I fear.

[kissdbyfire]

I find Sansa the most unstarkish of the lot. She seems to let others care for her, others steer her future, she follows and goes with the tide. Her direwolf was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest,the most gentle and trusting, as Ned saw just before he had to kill Lady in AGOT. He found the direwolf aptly named.But Sansa seems to develop in ASOS - and I suspect she will in a way 'play' Littlefinger. She learns how to do this with Robin, I fear.

Yes, I think she was the least 'starkish' of the lot in the beginning; one could possibly say she was a Stark in name only. And then, when she becomes Alayne Stone, she goes on an inner journey and becomes much more of a Stark then she had ever been. Does that make any sense? :dunno:

[Lummel]

Yes, and one big difference is that Jon and Arya still have their direwolves - a fact I see as something that will prevent them from ever being truly disconnected from their Stark identities. Also, I really don't think LF's plans will come to fruition.

I agree with your last point, but I think we have to be careful about seeing the direwolves as part of the children's Stark identities. They were Starks and knew that they were Starks long before they had direwolves. They have memories of Winterfell and of The Ned no matter what - that is going to be more central to their Stark identity than their direwolves.

[kissdbyfire]

I agree with your last point, but I think we have to be careful about seeing the direwolves as part of the children's Stark identities. They were Starks and knew that they were Starks long before they had direwolves. They have memories of Winterfell and of The Ned no matter what - that is going to be more central to their Stark identity than their direwolves.

I don't think the direwolves are necessarily part of the kids' identities; but I do think the link between the wolves and the kids is important and will have a big impact on their lives and future events. Of course, I can be completely wrong. But I've thought this from the very beginning when they find the pups. And I believe it has to do with the whole 'the lone wolf dies' bit.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think the direwolves are necessarily part of the kids' identities; but I do think the link between the wolves and the kids is important and will have a big impact on their lives and future events. Of course, I can be completely wrong. But I've thought this from the very beginning when they find the pups. And I believe it has to do with the whole 'the lone wolf dies' bit.

Then there's the matter of how they got there and why was it specifically the right number. I'm not sure if I believe that the Old Gods exist but direwolves hadn't been seen south of the wall for hundreds of years. I've seen BR theories but I'm not sure. Of course it could just be GRRM or both.

Slightly off topic but I found this. I hope they never lose each other. :)

"

Yes I know that Lady is dead, but assuming they were all alive and all the children as well, would all the wolves have bonded to the kids as Bran and Summer did?

Bran and Summer are somewhat of a special case.

"

http://www.westeros...._Few_Questions/