The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[kissdbyfire]

From way up there...?

Yes, now that you've mentioned the height of the Wall, it does sound a bit ludicrous. I do seem to recall something along those lines, though. I'll look it up; it must be one of countless things I misunterstood.

OK summarising, with a nod to Mother. I think that the Watch goes back to the Pact with the Children and that the members of the Watch used the secret portal below what's called the Nightfort to pass between the two realms for that annual exchange of gifts and any other contact that may have been required or desired. I questioned a page or so back what the Watch gave to the Children in return for the dragonglass. The question at the time was largely rhetorical because there didn't seem to be anything in the text, but now I think there's a reason for that. Mother suggests above that exposure to Ice magic transmuted some of the Children into White Walkers. I don't agree because their physical aspect is so different, but it set me to thinking...

Casting back to Craster, who gave up his sons to become White Walkers, might this be what the Watch also offered as their tribute? This would explain a number of things; first the story that the Nights King's men were magically enslaved, secondly his falling in love with a White Walker (knowing she was human at heart), and thirdly the prohibition in the current NW oath on marrying and fathering children. It would also provide a motive for the revolt and explain why the link with the Children was severed.

I see, cheers for the explanation. But I'm not ready to subscribe to this theory just yet... Need to think.

:-)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

How do you kill a monstrosity like Balerion the Black Dread if it lives in the wild and preys on your nation? How do you kill a hundred such mostrosities? Or a thousand? If Dragons arrived from another planet or magical realm, as seems to be the case, they are in fact a non-native, invasive life form that has no natural enemies and which, given enough time, will destroy all other life on the planet until their food source runs out.

What if the purpose of the Long Night was not to kill off men, but to kill off Dragons, which are otherwise unstoppable and should dominate every other life form, including men, if they are left to breed unchecked in the wild?

II see no reason to postulate dragons as an invasive extraterrestrial life form. (I don't automatically believe old wives' tales unless they come from Nan.) Fire magic is native to the world of aSoIaF, AFAIK. Dragons are probably magical, natural creatures. They would be in balance with the ecosystem, just like giants and direwolves. The main check on dragon overpopulation would be other dragons. In the wild, individual dragons would stake out large territories to hunt in (like Drogon), and defend them against other dragons. Dragons also seem to reproduce slowly, and suitable nesting sites would be another limiting factor on their population. I bet they nested in volcanoes, and the heat was necessary for proper incubation of the eggs, along with a bit of help from Mama. (The later Targs had difficulties hatching dragon eggs because they had no dragon to do what came naturally. Thus, Dany was forced to resort to extraordinary measures. Honestly, if human intervention was routinely necessary for dragon reproduction, how would the Targs have ever forgotten the secret? It was their key to power.)

The Long Winter might have affected the whole world, but it didn't cover the whole world with 100 feet of snow. Dragons wouldn't have been killed, they would have relocated. Perhaps Dragonstone was covered with snow during the Long Winter, so the native Westerosi dragon population migrated East, thus explaining why there are no more dragons in Westeros. Meanwhile, a long-lasting 100 foot deep snow cover and a permanent lack of sunshine would not be a very healthy combination for a weirwood tree. This leads me to believe that the CotF were opposed to the Long Winter, and helped the First Men end it.

This does not exclude the possibility that, after the Andal invasion, the CotF came to see Men and White Walkers as equally dangerous, and might play one group off against the other.

[kissdbyfire]

II see no reason to postulate dragons as an invasive extraterrestrial life form. (I don't automatically believe old wives' tales unless they come from Nan.) Fire magic is native to the world of aSoIaF, AFAIK. Dragons are probably magical, natural creatures. They would be in balance with the ecosystem, just like giants and direwolves. The main check on dragon overpopulation would be other dragons. In the wild, individual dragons would stake out large territories to hunt in (like Drogon), and defend them against other dragons. Dragons also seem to reproduce slowly, and suitable nesting sites would be another limiting factor on their population. I bet they nested in volcanoes, and the heat was necessary for proper incubation of the eggs, along with a bit of help from Mama. (The later Targs had difficulties hatching dragon eggs because they had no dragon to do what came naturally. Thus, Dany was forced to resort to extraordinary measures. Honestly, if human intervention was routinely necessary for dragon reproduction, how would the Targs have ever forgotten the secret? It was their key to power.)

The Long Winter might have affected the whole world, but it didn't cover the whole world with 100 feet of snow. Dragons wouldn't have been killed, they would have relocated. Perhaps Dragonstone was covered with snow during the Long Winter, so the native Westerosi dragon population migrated East, thus explaining why there are no more dragons in Westeros. Meanwhile, a long-lasting 100 foot deep snow cover and a permanent lack of sunshine would not be a very healthy combination for a weirwood tree. This leads me to believe that the CotF were opposed to the Long Winter, and helped the First Men end it.

This does not exclude the possibility that, after the Andal invasion, the CotF came to see Men and White Walkers as equally dangerous, and might play one group off against the other.

I agree with almost everything you say; I think it's very possible, at least. The only bit I don't really agree is what you say about the Long Winter being harmful to the weirwoods; there's a passage in ADwD where either Leaf or BR (I think it was one of them) tells Bran & Co. (or just Bran?) that a weirwood will live forever if left alone by men - or if it's not specifically cut down - or something to that effect. I'll try to find the bit in the book.

Found it I was wrong, it says 'undisturbed'. I suppose dragon fire would harm/destroy them.

"An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed."

[FanTasy]

There seems to be a belief that the dragons were not natural life forms in Westeros, Essos or Asshai.

There is reference in the books that they were, in my opinion.

In Westeros there were even sea dragons, as we know from Aerons chapters.

Maybe the dragons originally came over from Assai, who knows, but I belief they were native on Earth (if Westeros, Essos and Asshai are on this planet).

I don't think they were created by magic or fell out of some comet.

Most humans fear what they don't understand, I guess, they see it as alien, as 'other'.

Dragons might have a closer link to what humans in Westeros call magic, for lack of a better explanation

I am still not clear why the Wall was built, in time the true purpose was forgotten.

To protect from an feared and mightier force, that seems clear.

Maybe that feared force was related to ice (considered evil up north, the white walkers, or a force that breeds them) , maybe related to fire (considered evil up south, the Andals, the dragons).

What bugs is me is why Melisandre never refers to what happens in Essos, with Dany and her dragons.

And another thing that bugs me is how and why Melisandre went for Stannis.

He did not seek or find her, she was introduced to him by his wife. How, where and when did these two meet?

Did Melisandre act on specific orders from whatever force rules the Red Priests and Priestesses or is she a free agent?

She ends up in the North and at the Wall. Was this the goal and did she steer Stannis to the North?

Is she convinced that the Great Other has to be fought here?

Aargh ... too many questions, so little information - even after five books :bang:

[FanTasy]

Casting back to Craster, who gave up his sons to become White Walkers, might this be what the Watch also offered as their tribute? This would explain a number of things; first the story that the Nights King's men were magically enslaved, secondly his falling in love with a White Walker (knowing she was human at heart), and thirdly the prohibition in the current NW oath on marrying and fathering children. It would also provide a motive for the revolt and explain why the link with the Children was severed.

Wasn't there a reference to that the Night's King was set aside (murdered) by his own men because he sacrificed to the white walkers? I always thought there was a parallel in this tale and what happened first to Mormont and then to Jon. The Night's King was another lord Commander gone bad, in the eyes of the men of the Night's Watch.

[kissdbyfire]

What bugs is me is why Melisandre never refers to what happens in Essos, with Dany and her dragons.

And another thing that bugs me is how and why Melisandre went for Stannis.

He did not seek or find her, she was introduced to him by his wife. How, where and when did these two meet?

Did Melisandre act on specific orders from whatever force rules the Red Priests and Priestesses or is she a free agent?

She ends up in the North and at the Wall. Was this the goal and did she steer Stannis to the North?

Is she convinced that the Great Other has to be fought here?

Aargh ... too many questions, so little information - even after five books :bang:

Yes, this has been bugging me since I first read ASoS, some years ago. It seems 'clear' she got close to Stannis through Selyse. But how did she end up there in the first place? Was she sent to Dragonstone specifically by her 'order' (the red lot)? Did she go there because she figured she had to? Was she just wandering around and ended up there? Was she drawn by the nature of Dragonstone - volcano, etc? Unfortunately, I have no answers...

@Black Crow, here is the passage where it's mentioned that the NK saw the 'woman' he took to wife from atop the Wall. Yes, it is very high and all, but the text says just that. Of course, it may be just one of those things where 'legends' are not necessarily an accurate account of past events. ..

“No. This is the castle. There is a gate here.”

Yes, thought Bran, but it’s blocked by stone and ice.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

[Black Crow]

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Indeed and of course the story then continues:

“He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his sworn brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Nights King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of the Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden…He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.”

The connection between being the 13^th Lord Commander and ruling as King for thirteen years may be co-incidence or symmetry but either way it’s a long time for simply marrying a White Walker bringing about his doom, and of course its very convenient indeed that all the records were destroyed.

The key is this business of sacrificing – presumably offering up boys exactly as Craster was to do – was it really initiated by him, or as I suggested is it not more likely that the Watch had been doing it all along as part of their pact with the Children and that this was only discovered after the Watch were defeated. Its certainly consistent with the Children disappearing from the story at about this point because the Watch changed.

There’s also a certain symmetry to the annual gift of dragonglass. As somebody pointed out, it isn’t very much and more symbolic than practical if there was a war on, but perhaps it was an expression of good faith: Give us your sons to become White Walkers and we will give you the means to ensure we cannot turn them against you.

[FanTasy]

There’s also a certain symmetry to the annual gift of dragonglass. As somebody pointed out, it isn’t very much and more symbolic than practical if there was a war on, but perhaps it was an expression of good faith: Give us your sons to become White Walkers and we will give you the means to ensure we cannot turn them against you.

Yep. And it is in line with a continuing storyline in the present Westeros and Essos: taking hostages from your allie, to be sure. This as well could have been conditions of the pact.

I'm curious Black Crow what your thoughts are about that the sacrifices Craster made were his sons. Could it have been the same with the Night's Kings sons? I somehow doubt that it started with Craster. And I doubt that because I think there is some connection with that boys are sacrificed and that the Children of the Forest seem an all female lot.

[Eyron]

Yep. And it is in line with a continuing storyline in the present Westeros and Essos: taking hostages from your allie, to be sure. This as well could have been conditions of the pact.

I'm curious Black Crow what your thoughts are about that the sacrifices Craster made were his sons. Could it have been the same with the Night's Kings sons? I somehow doubt that it started with Craster. And I doubt that because I think there is some connection with that boys are sacrificed and that the Children of the Forest seem an all female lot.

The only one that is mentioned as either way is Leaf, but in the cave where Bran/Hodor finds old singers there is a "he" sitting on a weirthrone, the one that looks like he is trying to speak.

[LadyMary]

Wasn't there a reference to that the Night's King was set aside (murdered) by his own men because he sacrificed to the white walkers? I always thought there was a parallel in this tale and what happened first to Mormont and then to Jon. The Night's King was another lord Commander gone bad, in the eyes of the men of the Night's Watch.

I still think Craster was full of sh*t about why he "sacrificed" his sons. I think he didn't want any competition from a potential heir, by I'm sure we'll all debate that until GRRM tells us otherwise.

As for murdering the Lord Commander, it may be that in the eyes of Bowen Marsh and his co-conspirators, Jon's actions were as unnatural and egregious as the actions of the Night's King of legend. But I hardly think such a comparison can be made. What the Night's King did was unnatural, was based on magic and harmful to the humans living there, not merely unpopular command decisions that were intended to save human lives in the very real situation on the ground at the Wall and beyond with Wildlings fleeing the supernatural threat. And Mormont was murdered just because some men wanted out of the Night's Watch to satisfy their greed and lust.

[Black Crow]

I'm curious Black Crow what your thoughts are about that the sacrifices Craster made were his sons. Could it have been the same with the Night's Kings sons? I somehow doubt that it started with Craster.

I doubt if it was confined to the Nights King's sons; I suspect from the dragonglass connection that it went right back to the very beginning of the Watch but may not have come to light until he was defeated - that or the taking of the Children was what led to his downfall.

Either way I don't think its co-incidental that the passage “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.” came in Storm of Swords just before the story of the Nights King.

[mrazny]

I still think Craster was full of sh*t about why he "sacrificed" his sons. I think he didn't want any competition from a potential heir, by I'm sure we'll all debate that until GRRM tells us otherwise.

As for murdering the Lord Commander, it may be that in the eyes of Bowen Marsh and his co-conspirators, Jon's actions were as unnatural and egregious as the actions of the Night's King of legend. But I hardly think such a comparison can be made. What the Night's King did was unnatural, was based on magic and harmful to the humans living there, not merely unpopular command decisions that were intended to save human lives in the very real situation on the ground at the Wall and beyond with Wildlings fleeing the supernatural threat. And Mormont was murdered just because some men wanted out of the Night's Watch to satisfy their greed and lust.

Part of the problem is also that the victor's are deciding the tales, and this was before the Andals, and therefore related orally, or with runes. Very easy to mash up details, skip pieces, or to make a Stark feel better about Kinslaying.

His Queen is *inferred* to be an Other by the description, but she could've been something else. The Other's could be what came of their union, something human and different entirely.

Of course that could either mean deposing the NK actually created the Long Night and the timeline would need to shift as to when the first Pact happens and when the Long Night occurs, or even slightly different that the enemies within the Long Night were not the others as portrayed in the opening chapter of AGOT, just similar. Perhaps of the original race of the Night's King's Queen...

But yes, the Night's King supposedly took a Bride for 13 years! That's based on support of his fellow watch, whether ensorcelled or simply supported because the Watch itself saw nothing wrong with it. Perhaps the LC always took brides of the others, but it took a Stark as LC to have some hubris of letting his brother know about their secrets for a misunderstanding to occur?

[FanTasy]

The only one that is mentioned as either way is Leaf, but in the cave where Bran/Hodor finds old singers there is a "he" sitting on a weirthrone, the one that looks like he is trying to speak.

Yep, and there is the tale that their men are greenseers. But they may be recruited. Bloodraven seems to me to fulfill the greenseer-role in the cave beyond the Wall, and Bran as recruted to be next in line.

[Eyron]

Yes, this has been bugging me since I first read ASoS, some years ago. It seems 'clear' she got close to Stannis through Selyse. But how did she end up there in the first place? Was she sent to Dragonstone specifically by her 'order' (the red lot)? Did she go there because she figured she had to? Was she just wandering around and ended up there? Was she drawn by the nature of Dragonstone - volcano, etc? Unfortunately, I have no answers...

She did manage to get him and all his men out of Dragonstone, perhaps she was clearing the way for others? Didn't someone mention that Dragonstone was abandoned? (I can't remember who and when so I could be wrong)

@Black Crow, here is the passage where it's mentioned that the NK saw the 'woman' he took to wife from atop the Wall. Yes, it is very high and all, but the text says just that. Of course, it may be just one of those things where 'legends' are not necessarily an accurate account of past events. ..

I think we can safely say that the info in that story is not accurate in all aspects, I'll give some examples below.

“No. This is the castle. There is a gate here.”

Yes, thought Bran, but it’s blocked by stone and ice.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Indeed and of course the story then continues:

“He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his sworn brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Nights King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of the Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden…He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.”

Firtsly there is the bit with Joramun, the wildling. How did the Stark in Winterfell and the wildling king Joramun get together and plan this out, and why? There was the little obstacle of the Wall between them, and the story suggests that the Wall was built since he spotted the woman from atop the Wall. If the Night's King was the 13th commander it was early on in the history of the Wall when I think no other castles were built and that means no other gates either. I guess they could have sent ravens over the Wall to talk but how did the Stark and Joramun come to do this (was there some connection?), and how did they meet to storm the Nightfort together? Or whatever they did, as said - together. Where the wildlings south of the Wall then? Or was there no Wall? Or was it some other Wall then?

And Joramun was the one with the horn, the Horn of Winter, that wakes giants from the earth or brings down the Wall. Now that is a strange coincidence.

The story also implies the Stark in Winterfell needed Joramun for some reason, otherwise he could have defeated the Night's King himself. So perhaps the joining of the north and the wildlings is necessary for some reason in present time in the story too.

If the Night's Kings queen was a White Walker she had no problem coming south of the Wall, being brought there anyway. So whatever magic hold the White Walkers back had no effect then - or she was not a White Walker at all.

It seems strange to me that she let herself be caught in the first place, from what we now know of the White Walkers and their skills. She could have been unarmed but how did he catch her? He did go about it the same way as the wildlings do when they steal a woman, and she did not object terribly since she came along and ruled as queen. It all seems fishy to me. Maybe it was her plan all along to be caught?

But when she ruled as queen she did not do anything spectacular, like raise an army of wights or try to wipe out mankind or bring eternal winter. So if the Others are so menacing she was not part of that plan, or again - she was no White Walker.

The reason for the contradicitons could be that she was something like Coldhands, dead but still her own master, but again - she could come through the Wall. So either there was another gate than the weirwood gate under the castle that she could come through, perhaps the Night's King had the gate above ground made in the Nightfort, or Coldhands was lying about not being able to go through that gate. Or the magic is not working against the creatures but only the winter itself - or the Wall was not there at this time. Sigh, there are too many implications from this...

When Sam passed through the weirwood gate he only had to say a part of the vow, and that part did not include "hold no lands, take no wife, father no children". That makes me think that these parts were added to the vow some time after the Wall, the Nightfort and the weirwood gate was built and made and not part of the original vows. The Night's King incident could be a reason for those, but not necessarily because she was an Other woman. Perhaps they had children, and intended to start a new branch of house Stark, and the death of those children after he was caught was just pinned on him and his wife when in reality they were killed (like Rheagars children).

There is also the part of the Stark in Winterfell and implied - the other Stark in the Night's Watch, as in there is always a Stark in both these places. This could of course be unintentional writing, or it does have some meaning, we don't know.

And what records were those that needed to be destroyed? Runestones? Or perhaps this story was invented at a much later time than any actual event, or the actual event took place when written records were kept.

Another aspect of this story is how it relates to Stannis and Melisandre, The queensmen is not in effect Selyses men, but Melisandres. And she is not a living human anymore, and Stannis gave her his soul when they "produced" their sons, the shadowbabies... (urk, still creeps me out). She said as we discussed earlier that his fire is burning low after the first two babies. And oh yeah he is going to settle in the Nightfort, together with his corpse queen Melisandre, and she is a sorceress binding people to her will with her tricks.

And also they do sacrifice humans to R'hllor, only they use fire. We don't know if the Night's King used fire, or how he did his sacrifices. And we don't know if that Other woman was in fact a White Walker or just glamored.

So what if a Stark was charmed by a glamored sorceress from the north wielding ice magic and they started making White Walkers some time during the Long Night, when the White Walkers came the first time. And now when winter is back they are waking too, since they are immortal and have been sleeping beneath the ice in the far north.

The reason the Children could help could be because they know where the magic comes from, and that they know that ice and fire are opposing forces so the obsidian made by volcanoes are the weapons of fire.

So these are my ideas from this story and why I think it is indeed very relevant to everything that goes on in the north :)

[Eyron]

Yep, and there is the tale that their men are greenseers. But they may be recruited. Bloodraven seems to me to fulfill the greenseer-role in the cave beyond the Wall, and Bran as recruted to be next in line.

But according to Bran he was a singer, a Child of the forest. Bran calls them the "singers". So he was a male Child according to Bran.

[FanTasy]

Could the story about the Stark who teemed up with Joramun of the wildlings (it is not explicitely said in the tale that he was a wildling king, as Eira states in her post, but maybe he was) could have anything to do with the story of Bael?

[FanTasy]

But according to Bran he was a singer, a Child of the forest. Bran calls them the "singers". So he was a male Child according to Bran.

Bran, in the skin of Hodor, discovers passages and chambers. "One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead (ed.) to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak."

Well, this could be male children, but to me it seemed a foreshadowing of where Bloodraven will end up - and after him, after a long, long time, Bran.

[kissdbyfire]

I've just found a SSM regarding the height of the Wall. I think this might be mentioned in one of the books, as I seem to remember reading something similar.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2000/09/

Below a quote from the SSM:

"Well, the Wall has undoubtedly "eaten" a lot of crushed stone over the centuries and millenia, especially around the castles where the black brothers regularly gravelled the walkways. But there's a lot more ice than there is stone.

Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height."

I think it's nearly impossible to be certain of much with the factual info we have at this point. I'm not sure the NK queen was a WW; I'm not sure she wasn't 'neither'. I think it's very likely that all these tales we get in the books are NOT exactly as we read about them. I think this is deliberate.

I also think most of what is being posted here is at the very least 'possible'...

I think I'm giving myself a headache... lol

[kissdbyfire]

Could the story about the Stark who teemed up with Joramun of the wildlings (it is not explicitely said in the tale that he was a wildling king, as Eira states in her post, but maybe he was) could have anything to do with the story of Bael?

Regarding Joramun, isn't it mentioned somewhere that Mance isn't the first King-Beyond-the-Wall, and that before him the wildlings had Joramun (and Bael, I think) as their kings? I'm not positive, but I think so...

[Eyron]

Bran, in the skin of Hodor, discovers passages and chambers. "One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead (ed.) to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak."

Well, this could be male children, but to me it seemed a foreshadowing of where Bloodraven will end up - and after him, after a long, long time, Bran.

I reread that passage yesterday and I think it was a foreshadowing too, or at least there to give us the idea that this was a possible scenario.

But we can't ignore that the ones on the thrones were singers and that the one trying to speak was a he. "Singers" mean that they were Children, because that is what Bran calls them. So not human men.

Even if there are few males left for whatever reason, nothing points to the Children being all female. Perhaps the males are all dying and that is why they need BR and Bran, but that does not mean they need Craster's babies, if the purpose is to make them greenseers. Only a rare few have the ability to become greenseers so they would need thousands of babies to find a single one.

Regarding Joramun, isn't it mentioned somewhere that Mance isn't the first King-Beyond-the-Wall, and that before him the wildlings had Joramun (and Bael, I think) as their kings? I'm not positive, but I think so...

There were more Kings-beyond-the-Wall, the brothers Gendel and Gorne, Raymund Redbeard and someone called the Horned Lord. Bael was king too. I thought Joramun was also a King, from the free folks stories of him, but I can't remember if it was actually mentioned if he was King or just a great leader.