The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[kissdbyfire]

- but I also think that the Starks warging their wolves is not so different to what is going on between the Targaryens and their dragons

Sorry about the poor editing of the quoted text above, but I can't put it in bold.

As to what you say, I'd say 'maybe'. It's possible, sure, but I see it as a bit unlikely. I mean, how many chapters have we had since the dragons' eggs have hatched, and not one single mention of any kind of bond/link between Dany and her dragons - not any type of bond that would suggest anything close to warging. I mean, Not one, so... Also, with the Stark kids being wargs I think it would be kind of 'cheating' from GRRM to give Dany the same ability (or some similar ability) and not letting us, readers, learn that in gods know how many chapters.

[Eyron]

I guessed that as Stannis declined, her babies got stronger because they were taking some of his vitality from him. People constantly notice how fast he is aging and getting more gaunt and pale. Mel tried to make a super baby at the Wall but alas, Jon didn't want her to touch his.....wolf :eek: . Which makes me wonder how on earth she had Stannis's shadow baby?! It seems to happen as a result of a union. I think Stannis would have to be drugged for that to occur.

:uhoh:

Ugh, that was a very disturbing scene... I can't understand why some want them to... ahem, get close. She creeps me out.

Could be that the shadows "steal" life from him. They are his shadows, and they come to "life" from Melisandres fire magic. Leaf said that fire is always hungry, and maester Aemon said that fire consumes, so that could have something to do with it.

I am sure they have done more than sleep when they share a bed... I wonder if Melisandre know if Stannis is being effected by their "union". If he is effected and she knows, it is a strange thing to do to her fire champion.

[kissdbyfire]

I wonder if Melisandre know if Stannis is being effected by their "union". If he is effected and she knows, it is a strange thing to do to her fire champion.

Doesn't she say something about that to Davos? I may be misremembering and even making things up, but I seem to recall that she wanted to make shadow babies with Davos? ( eeewww she creeps me out too!)

I think this dialogue took place when Davos was in the dungeon at Dragonstone and she pops in for a visit. I can't even remember from which book that scene is, it's all a blurr in my mind, just one massive book. I'll look it up now.

[Black Crow]

Hmmm, interesting question. Not sure what (if anything) the Watch might give in return, but does it seem like the gift of the dragonglass is more ceremonial than functional? One hundred daggers doesn't seem like much, when you think about it. Maybe the gift is a reminder? Something like: remember the Long Night, remember that it was only through our help that you were able to throw back the White Walkers, remember your vow. The number - one hundred - seems important somehow, as well.

Well that's what I'm thinking too and suggest that it feeds into the business of the Watch remaining true. I argued (and still hold) in the OP that the Watch and the Children were linked until the business of the Nights King; that instead of him being the bad guy, he was deposed in a pro-Andal coup. The annual exchange of gifts ended and the Watch were no longer true to the Pact and lost touch with the Children, which is why the Pact needs to be renewed in order to save the Wall.

[davidjones2492]

Doesn't she say something about that to Davos? I may be misremembering and even making things up, but I seem to recall that she wanted to make shadow babies with Davos? ( eeewww she creeps me out too!)

I think this dialogue took place when Davos was in the dungeon at Dragonstone and she pops in for a visit. I can't even remember from which book that scene is, it's all a blurr in my mind, just one massive book. I'll look it up now.

Yeah she does, something about him not being able to survive the creation of another shadow baby if i remember correctly.

It definitely infers that the spell drains him significantly

[kissdbyfire]

Couldn't edit my previous post.

Found it, it's in ASoS:

“Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . . ”

“ . . . a horror.” Davos retreated from her. “I want no part of you, my lady. Or your god. May the Seven protect me.”

It seems to me she knows the shadow babies are draining Stannis' life force, and that she wants to make more of them with other men...

Creepy Mel.

[kissdbyfire]

Well that's what I'm thinking too and suggest that it feeds into the business of the Watch remaining true. I argued (and still hold) in the OP that the Watch and the Children were linked until the business of the Nights King; that instead of him being the bad guy, he was deposed in a pro-Andal coup. The annual exchange of gifts ended and the Watch were no longer true to the Pact and lost touch with the Children, which is why the Pact needs to be renewed in order to save the Wall.

But why would the Pact need to be renewed after so many years? Why now? Is it because now we have a resurfacing of the WW? If so, why did they resurface only now? And if it must be a Stark, what is Lord Bloodraven's part in this?

[mrazny]

I don't think this is too tangential; This thread and the Jaime & Bran thread are the two that seem to be most receptive to the importance of the Dunk & Egg stories, which the parallels are too constant to completely ignore...

What about Sam's role in all of this? As a man of the Night's Watch, a born Tarly making him by blood closely associated with Old Town and the Maesters, and now journeying to the Citadel. There some diving into to connections with Norse Mythology thanks to Hodor and Hodur (and i highly recommend looking at the Jaime & bran thread for what was discussed there more for the fun than convincing anyone that this is just a Norse retelling expanded for the grand scheme of these novels), i don't get too hung up on names connecting outside of this universe, but Names Do connect INside this story.

Sam travels with Aemon and *Dareon* to go to Old Town. Yes, Aemon, not Aegon, but Egg travels with Dareon who is too cowardly to fight in the tournament. Dareon in AFFC also opts out of his mission. Sam just doesn't fly as another set of eyes in a different part of the world.

Sam is significant, and I'm curious in what way the Dunk & Egg story will reflect on his role.

[Black Crow]

But why would the Pact need to be renewed after so many years? Why now?

Because after the long summer a long winter is coming. Caponbreath suggested, and I think quite rightly, that the Wall is intended to hold winter back, which is why, having unleashed the first long winter to stave off defeat by the First Men, the Children then built the Wall after peace was concluded through the Pact.

Now winter is coming again, but because the Watch is no longer true the Wall won't hold it unless the Pact is renewed.

As to Bloodraven (and Mance) and the White Walkers, I suspect Bloodraven knows what's happening and has summoned Bran north to renew the Pact, but we can't discount some other game going on as he takes advantage of the situation.

[kissdbyfire]

Because after the long summer a long winter is coming. Caponbreath suggested, and I think quite rightly, that the Wall is intended to hold winter back, which is why, having unleashed the first long winter to stave off defeat by the First Men, the Children then built the Wall after peace was concluded through the Pact.

Now winter is coming again, but because the Watch is no longer true the Wall won't hold it unless the Pact is renewed.

As to Bloodraven (and Mance) and the White Walkers, I suspect Bloodraven knows what's happening and has summoned Bran north to renew the Pact, but we can't discount some other game going on as he takes advantage of the situation.

Hmmm... Does that mean there hasn't been a long winter in 8,000 years? isn't there mention of other, previous long summers? If so, wouldn't that suggest there were other long winters as well? I suppose it could be exactly that, I just don't think that is a satisfactory explanation at this moment. Then again, I don't think we have any one satisfactory explanation yet... :-)

[Black Crow]

I think the easiest way to explain the Winter business in our own terms is that Westeros normally enjoys a temperate climate with the normal four seasons. However overlaid on this pattern is a series of Ice Ages and mini-ice ages. The Long Winter was a full blown Ice Age. The last one on Earth is reckoned to have ended about 10,000 years ago, and siince then there have been a number of mini-ice ages on Earth, the last about 300 years ago, characterised by extremely cold and long winters but not sufficiently to see the northern hemisphere permanently covered in ice.

This is reasonable consistent with what we're told of winters on Westeros with the Long Winter (last ice age) 8,000 years ago, and a series of very cold winters or mini-ice ages at irregular intervals thereafter, similar to but probably more frequent than those on Earth. What we're seeing now, however is another Long Winter or full-blown Ice Age approaching.

[Free Northman]

Because after the long summer a long winter is coming. Caponbreath suggested, and I think quite rightly, that the Wall is intended to hold winter back, which is why, having unleashed the first long winter to stave off defeat by the First Men, the Children then built the Wall after peace was concluded through the Pact.

Now winter is coming again, but because the Watch is no longer true the Wall won't hold it unless the Pact is renewed.

As to Bloodraven (and Mance) and the White Walkers, I suspect Bloodraven knows what's happening and has summoned Bran north to renew the Pact, but we can't discount some other game going on as he takes advantage of the situation.

It seems to me that this is a rather different viewpoint than your original position, which had the Children building the Wall to hold back Azor Ahai and his Fire magic, along with the Andals or some such scenario.

Am I right in saying you've moved away from that position to the extent that you acknowledge that the Children built theWall to hold back the Long Winter, and not to hold back Azor Ahai's crowd? And the very thing which inspired your initial theory - the fact that the Children are not necessarily the good guys, but are in fact somewhat sinister, now seems to have been abandoned by you, if you are indeed saying that the Children with Bran are trying to get him to reseal the Pact in order to save men from the Long Night.

This is in effect exactly what the conventional viewpoint supports, with only the detail of how they're stopping the Long Night being expanded upon slightly.

Resealing the Pact? Sure. That is in no way incompatible with what we've always believed. In fact, we've always had Bran seeking out the Children to learn their secrets and to solicit their help in defeating the Others and the Long Night. So if this requires him resealing the Pact, by all means. Whatever ceremony is necessary. This is actually not a rogue theory at all. It is in fact the mainstream theory in almost every respect.

Have you therefore abandoned your key points?

[Eyron]

Couldn't edit my previous post.

Found it, it's in ASoS:

“Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . . ”

“ . . . a horror.” Davos retreated from her. “I want no part of you, my lady. Or your god. May the Seven protect me.”

It seems to me she knows the shadow babies are draining Stannis' life force, and that she wants to make more of them with other men...

Creepy Mel.

Ah I just found it too...

Is it not strange that she does that to him? Does he not need to be as strong as possible to be the Azor Ahai reborn and fight the darkness according to her?

Btw, I just read Brans chapters in ADWD from which you took the parts you posted earlier. Leaf says BR is still lingering for us, for you, for the realms of men. So if she is telling the truth he is still serving humans, and she did not strike me as a liar. What he has seen through the trees we don't know so we don't know how he wants the realms to be served, but it seems to me that he means to help the Children, mankind and not one part over the other.

One part I never understood is why Bran that does not have the required red or green eyes of the greenseers is the one they needed. I know GRRM said he should never have bothered with the colour of eyes but this is not just the difference between blue, green or grey, it's what he said to be the mark of a greenseer... And if he thought he made a mistake in the colour of Brans eyes in AGOT, why did he go on with mentioning the "mark" of the greenseers in later books when he could have just skipped that part?

@Silmarien

You are right about the other greenseers, I had forgotten the ones that Bran/Hodor found in the cave across the bridge over the abyss, so I read that part again.

He thinks they are dead at first, but they opened their eyes and looked at him, one opened his mouth to speak it seemed to Bran, but couldn't speak he thinks. So maybe they are dying slowly, and can't communicate any more from being so changed. We know that wargs loose themselves after a while living in another creature, so maybe that's what is happening to them, they have become more trees than Children.

Coldhands says that BR is the last greenseer and so does the Children (via Leaf I presume) according to Bran, and maybe they are all lying but they let Meera and Jojen roam the caves it seems and the other greenseers where not hard to find so if they were trying to hide them they did a poor job. Especially since they know Bran can warg ravens and look pretty much wherever he wants in those caves.

And about the Blackwoods, I guess that is cleared up already by lojzelote.

Here is a references to it: http://awoiaf.wester...House_Blackwood. The part which says the the Blackwoods are of the First Men, and hold the Old Gods are from SSM, not a wiki contributor.

I don't understand what you imply with the greenseers having red eyes though, I only read that Bloodraven had red eyes. None of the Children in the cave are said to have red eyes. The woods witch may be a CotF, she could have abandonded the rest though since she is still in the south. It seems to me you imply there are more like this?

[Black Crow]

It seems to me that this is a rather different viewpoint than your original position, which had the Children building the Wall to hold back Azor Ahai and his Fire magic, along with the Andals or some such scenario....

Have you therefore abandoned your key points?

I was never happy with the notion that the Wall was built to protect Westeros from the White Walkers, far less the other "old races", which is why I advanced the theory that it was built to protect the North and said "old races", the Children included.

In the course of this debate I've been persuaded by Capon Breath's suggestion that the Wall was actually built by the Children to hold back Winter itself. Where I still disagree with him is that I think that this was all it did, and that it only offers a physical barrier to passage across it in either direction.

I've suggested, on the basis of Old Nan's interrupted story, that it was the Children who unleashed the Long Winter and everything that went with it, White Walkers included, as a weapon of last resort to stave off defeat by the First Men, and that the Last Hero (Brandon Stark?) patched up the peace treaty with them which became the Pact, and in return they threw up the Wall to hold back the Winter.

Although I don't believe anybody's made the connection between Old Nan's story and the Pact before, I acknowledge that this revised view is broadly in line with mainstream theory.

Where I continue to differ is in the role of the Nights Watch. Here I think that the business of the Dragonglass and the Nights King are interlinked insofar as the two stories demonstrate a close relationship between the Children, the Watch and even the White Walkers, and that far from being evil or mad as the story would have it, the Nights King married the White Walker in the ordinary course of such alliances, but was deposed in a mutiny which saw the relationship severed, there was no more dragonglass because the Nights Watch were no longer true and moving forward to the present with another Long Winter approaching the Wall can no longer protect Westeros because the Pact has been broken and the Watch is no longer true.

Where I still have my suspicions and am reluctant to move too far from the OP is in the interpretation of the Azor Ahai business and whether there is a connection here with the arrival of the iron bearing Andals and the Nights Watch mutiny

[Free Northman]

I was never happy with the notion that the Wall was built to protect Westeros from the White Walkers, far less the other "old races", which is why I advanced the theory that it was built to protect the North and said "old races", the Children included.

In the course of this debate I've been persuaded by Capon Breath's suggestion that the Wall was actually built by the Children to hold back Winter itself. Where I still disagree with him is that I think that this was all it did, and that it only offers a physical barrier to passage across it in either direction.

I've suggested, on the basis of Old Nan's interrupted story, that it was the Children who unleashed the Long Winter and everything that went with it, White Walkers included, as a weapon of last resort to stave off defeat by the First Men, and that the Last Hero (Brandon Stark?) patched up the peace treaty with them which became the Pact, and in return they threw up the Wall to hold back the Winter.

Although I don't believe anybody's made the connection between Old Nan's story and the Pact before, I acknowledge that this revised view is broadly in line with mainstream theory.

Where I continue to differ is in the role of the Nights Watch. Here I think that the business of the Dragonglass and the Nights King are interlinked insofar as the two stories demonstrate a close relationship between the Children, the Watch and even the White Walkers, and that far from being evil or mad as the story would have it, the Nights King married the White Walker in the ordinary course of such alliances, but was deposed in a mutiny which saw the relationship severed, there was no more dragonglass because the Nights Watch were no longer true and moving forward to the present with another Long Winter approaching the Wall can no longer protect Westeros because the Pact has been broken and the Watch is no longer true.

Where I still have my suspicions and am reluctant to move too far from the OP is in the interpretation of the Azor Ahai business and whether there is a connection here with the arrival of the iron bearing Andals and the Nights Watch mutiny

Look, the above is a bit confusing for me, I'll be honest.

I'll also say that I don't think you should attach so much significance to Nan's lack of a reference to the Pact. Nan is hardly the repository of all knowledge. She was telling Bran a fairy tale from modern points of view. And her story certainly is not incompatible with the Pact. The logical interpretation of her story in the light of the official histories, is that the Long Night simply happened about 2000 years into the Pact, by which time the Children had already continued their long dwindling to the point where the First Men hardly ever saw them anymore. Remember, according to the Pact, the deep forests were given to the Children, with the rest of the continent given to the First Men. So it makes sense that the Children withdrew into these forest strongholds to live in peacefull isolation from men.

Hence the need to go searching for them again in the depths of the Long Night. It may well be that before that time men had avoided contact with the Children after the Pact was signed.

So I don't think you've discovered anything of revolutionary significance in Nan's story. She didn't refer to the Pact, because the Pact was part of another, much earlier story, which she happened not to be telling at the time. Bran wanted a scary story, which is the Long Night. Not the happy story of the signing of the Pact, which happened 2000 years earlier.

[hotweaselsoup]

These are all very good points, and I struggle with understanding the timeline and the stories.

I too feel like some pact was broken and that led to the Long Night. Problem is we don't know enough of any pacts to know when or why they were made really.

Yeah - not knowing the exact timeline is frustrating. But with all the "promise me's", and "promised princes", and sacred oaths, etc. floating around these books, it's hard not to conclude that some pact somewhere was broken!

About what made the pact an option for the First Men, there is another aspect that I don't think we have addressed, from what I remember this very moment, the fact that the winning side in the wars between the First Men and the Children are not certain. As well as the Andals would like to portray themselves as victors and perhaps change the truth in their records a bit, so could the First Men. We don't know if the First Men were so invincible as they would have history remember them. Even if it was the Andals who wrote down the stories, the ideas must have come from the First Men.

I have thought about how the First Men could ever defeat the Children, who had greenseers, wargs and a land full of animals and other species to fight for them. Direwolves, mammoths and giants in great numbers are not easily fought on ground. And it is hard to fight someone sitting in a tree shooting arrows, yourself armed with a sword or an axe... Cutting down trees is a method which the First Men adopted but that was more a preventive action than a way to defeat the Children directly.

Very good points. From the legends, the Children had all sorts of strong magic at their disposal - dominion over all creatures (skinchanging abilities, I'd guess), as well as the power over earth and water. Also the weirwood net, of course. You'd think with all that magic, they should have been able to defeat the First Men easily, or at least force them out of Westeros. But maybe their numbers were just too few, and even with all their magic, they just couldn't stem the tide?

I have not thought much about the Wood dancers before, but going with GRRM's habit of calling battle or fight "dance" I guess they were fighters (I see ninjas hiding in trees in my mind right now) :ph34r:

:D Tree ninjas! I love it - kinda like Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon, right? Hey - now I'm reminded of Arya practicing her swordsmanship up in the branches of the weirwood at Harrenhal!

[kissdbyfire]

Ah I just found it too...

Is it not strange that she does that to him? Does he not need to be as strong as possible to be the Azor Ahai reborn and fight the darkness according to her?

Yes, I find it very odd indeed. Then again, I find everything she does odd or, at the very least, slightly off. I think the things Melisandre says are either hooey or deliberate lies. Hooey when she misreads the bloody flames, and deliberate lies when she's trying to manipulate others into doing what she wants. I think she may have a hidden agenda. I also think she's not saying everything she knows.

Btw, I just read Brans chapters in ADWD from which you took the parts you posted earlier. Leaf says BR is still lingering for us, for you, for the realms of men. So if she is telling the truth he is still serving humans, and she did not strike me as a liar. What he has seen through the trees we don't know so we don't know how he wants the realms to be served, but it seems to me that he means to help the Children, mankind and not one part over the other.

I agree, Leaf doesn't strike me as a liar either.

One part I never understood is why Bran that does not have the required red or green eyes of the greenseers is the one they needed. I know GRRM said he should never have bothered with the colour of eyes but this is not just the difference between blue, green or grey, it's what he said to be the mark of a greenseer... And if he thought he made a mistake in the colour of Brans eyes in AGOT, why did he go on with mentioning the "mark" of the greenseers in later books when he could have just skipped that part?

Oh, excellent observation about Bran not having red or moss-green eyes! I had never notice that... And now I have one more thing to go to the list of things that are driving me mad! lol

[Black Crow]

So I don't think you've discovered anything of revolutionary significance in Nan's story. She didn't refer to the Pact, because the Pact was part of another, much earlier story, which she happened not to be telling at the time. Bran wanted a scary story, which is the Long Night. Not the happy story of the signing of the Pact, which happened 2000 years earlier.

Possibly, possibly, but given that the First Men were obviously winning the war against the Children, having them unleash something as destructive as the Long Winter - and somebody did because GRRM says it was magical - provides us with a reason why both sides agreed the pact, and also why Old Nan's story was interupted at that point. If the Last Hero had simply found the Children and got them to help, why conceal the ending of the story because that would have been a happy ending?

[Black Crow]

Oh, excellent observation about Bran not having red or moss-green eyes! I had never notice that... And now I have one more thing to go to the list of things that are driving me mad! lol

Perhaps its just one of these things; become a Greenseer by eating that mush in the bowl for long enough and your eyes will change colour accordingly.

[hotweaselsoup]

Sorry about the poor editing of the quoted text above, but I can't put it in bold.

As to what you say, I'd say 'maybe'. It's possible, sure, but I see it as a bit unlikely. I mean, how many chapters have we had since the dragons' eggs have hatched, and not one single mention of any kind of bond/link between Dany and her dragons - not any type of bond that would suggest anything close to warging. I mean, Not one, so... Also, with the Stark kids being wargs I think it would be kind of 'cheating' from GRRM to give Dany the same ability (or some similar ability) and not letting us, readers, learn that in gods know how many chapters.

I wasn't very clear in my earlier post - I forget that people can't see into my head! - but I don't think Dany is a skinchanger, nor will she become one. I guess the similarities I see between the Stark wargs and the Targ dragons is that I think the dragon hatching involves the transferral of an unborn infant's "soul" (consciousness, identity, life) into a dragon embryo. In other words, I think Rhaego actually became Drogo - his consciousness infusing the dragon embryo, and merging with it. So, in a sense, Rhaego (not Dany) is warging with the dragon, like Varamyr merges with his wolf after he experiences the true death. If you notice, the Stark warging ability is easiest (and perhaps strongest) for the younger Starks. Arya and Bran have no trouble connecting with Nymeria and Summer via their wolf dreams, whereas Jon and Robb (presumably) resist their connections with Ghost and Grey Wind. And Rickon, the youngest, is so deeply connected to Shaggydog that, while at Winterfell, Shaggydog is prowling around angrily looking for his pack while Rickon is doing and feeling the exact same thing. Rickon and Shaggydog are merging, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a very feral boy-cub when next we meet Rickon. So, I think the younger the warg is, the more complete the connection. And if you go back to the womb, a full-fledged transferral takes place. Or something like that, anyway! :drunk:

I know the theory is nebulous, but I can't help but think that it's all the same type of magic, just variations thereof. Like the stories that keep repeating themselves in ASoIaF, or the themes that crop up over and over: the same melody, just plucked on different instruments.