The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[Free Northman]

Exactly this!

Excellent post Free Northman.

The balance the Children represent is even hinted at by Bloodraven to Bran, every song must have it's balance.

That is what I think the Children are to the forces of ice and fire. In the world at risk by these two, the Children represent the forces of nature, life and death.

And yeah, the Children are the singers of the earth...

And the story is called A Song of Ice and Fire...

And as discussed at lenght before in other threads, the Reeds oath to Bran.

Earth and Water

Bronze and Iron

Ice and Fire

I think Men are represented by bronze and iron, and in this context they are also keepers of balance, being the shield between the forces and the ones that can tip the scale to either side, by empowering the Children or by tapping into and releasing the magic of ice or fire.

What you write about the magic the Children are connected with is almost exactly what I have written numerous posts about, I am so glad to see there are more to share this view.

One thing though, I think the forces of ice and fire magic are inanimate (I am not sure if this is what you meant), and that the people tapping into them are the ones that create the destructive forces. As in the red priesthood and the Others (who seem fairly human in their psychology). As I have said before, it's people who are evil, magic is just a tool for them to practise it. And magic in not controllable or measurable so results can be disastrous, as we have seen.

I also think there will be war on two fronts, both ice and fire, for humans and Children and that is the reason I don't see any chance of cooperation between Children + Bran and Jon (and any others that will rally to this party) and Dany and the dragon squad.

Jojen (who I like to think is a boy who knows what he is talking about) to Bran when they emerge from the crypts of Winterfell and see that the godswood did not burn.

"There is power in living wood", said Jojen, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power as strong as fire".

Foreshadowing of the battle that will come?

The dragons are false saviours in this story and the way people are rushing to lay their hands on them is telling, people are greedy and want to have dominion over others, and they don't shy away from any horrors to get it. No way GRRM does not see the resemblance to another prominent fantasy story in this...

Fassreiter wrote it well earlier in the thread: The dragons are the "ring" in this story.

On the topic of the Wall, I think the old species (giants etc.) are part of the world that the Children wants to protect, they are part of the same pre-civilization culture, and in the name of balance I think the Children would try hard to save them.

Supposedly the Last Hero went to find the secret city of the Children to ask for their help to defeat the Others. And since the Children did not need to do this I think they exacted something in return, and that was the protection of the old species and a promise of the Last Hero to uphold this pact. Hence the Night's Watch and the Starks in Winterfell, and the Wall.

The south side of the Wall needs a defence from men trying to come through it, men can hack, burn and dig, hence a mobile ground defence as we see in the Night's Watch and the men who occupied the Gift. On the north side a ground defence is wasted since the magic in the Wall is keeping the Others from passing, and they don't burn or dig either I think.

I'll comment only on the animate vs inanimate part of Ice and Fire for now, as the rest is a bit speculative, in my view.

I'm not really sure in this case. It all depends on what the Others actually are. If they are natural beings that simply utilize the Power of Ice, then sure, Ice can be an inanimate force. But if they are supernatural entities, they may well be some type of Ice spirit. Either way, I don't think they are simply evil men. They are something else. Some other kind of life form.

I think they are aliens who want to terraform the entire planet into an icy wasteland, which resembles their natural habitat. Just like the Dragons would love the entire world to be a volcanic wasteland.

The Children, on the other hand, are the ones that represent normal life as we know it. Nature in balance between Ice and Fire.

[Free Northman]

Not so; Osha said they "went" beyond the Wall, while Maester Luwin rather more explicity said they fled up there.

Let me be honest, here. I think you attach way too much significance to a casual turn of phrase.

We KNOW the Children were once everywhere. We KNOW that as men increased in numbers, the Children declined. So the fact that they sought refuge in the area with the lowest human population is hardly newsworthy.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, with this quote. The Children once called all of Westeros home. Now they only reside North of the Wall. So Osha and Maester Luwin are indeed correct when they say they fled North of the Wall. But only by accident.

[kissdbyfire]

Nothing outrageous in your question. The weirwood system seems very similar to the biological superbrain that houses the Avatar people's memories.

However, I do believe that Martin started writing ASOIAF long before Cameron produced the movie Avatar, unless there was some book about it floating around in earlier times.

No! Now, that's heresy! Only joking... But I'm GRRM's biggest, most hardcore fan - well, one of several, at least. I meant it the other way about. "Avatar" writers/producers nicked the idea from GRRM.

[Eyron]

Yes, I tend to see it that way too. I'm still very fuzzy on some details, though. Most of all, I agree with the notion of the CotF being not only the original inhabitants, but also the 'natural beings' here. Nature is a force that often as not is perceived as somthing a bit 'flower-power-peace-and-love' , but the truth is nature can (and will) be very 'cruel'. And I use cruel between quotation marks because I want to emphasise it's nothing to do with sadism, nor with inflicting pain/suffering/hardship for one's own pleasure or gratification. It's 'cruel' - perhaps brutal is a better word -in the sense of 'survival of the fittest', etc.

Really well put :D

Whenever I tried to explain how I thought about the "singers of the earth" and used the word "nature" I was half expecting to be labeled as a hippie, but nice and friendly is not the way I see nature.

[Black Crow]

Some interesting arguments of a philosophical nature here which I'm broadly in agreement with, so I'd like to refine mine a little:

I still remain unshakeably of the view that the Children and the other "old races" are the Others; being diametrically opposed to everything that the Red lot stand for.

Where I'm prepared to be convinced is that the White Walkers may indeed be something else other than their glamoured servants. It is possible that they are indeed something nasty in the Ice which is being unleashed along with all the other waking magic, but if so they are a consequence rather than a protagonist in the struggle, a distraction from the real fight between the Old Gods and the Red one. Whether they are working for or against the Children they are, as I've said, just bogeymen.

Which is why, as I've argued before Jon's destiny will not be to take on the role of Azor Ahai and smite those bogeymen but instead is to defeat Azor Ahai and so restore the balance between Ice and Fire.

[kissdbyfire]

Let me be honest, here. I think you attach way too much significance to a casual turn of phrase.

We KNOW the Children were once everywhere. We KNOW that as men increased in numbers, the Children declined. So the fact that they sought refuge in the area with the lowest human population is hardly newsworthy.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, with this quote. The Children once called all of Westeros home. Now they only reside North of the Wall. So Osha and Maester Luwin are indeed correct when they say they fled North of the Wall. But only by accident.

I think it's possible you guys aren't necessarily arguing different things when it comes to why the CotF went/fled north. I may have understood both your posts wrong, but what I did understand is: @Black Crow, are you saying the CotF fled north - fled as in were somehow pushed or forced? @Free Northman, are you saying they had to go north because humans in general occupied Westeros, leaving them little choice? Because I kinda agree with both ideas. And I'll add that this move north (the CotF fleeing) has to do with their network (weirwoods) being all but extinguished south of the Wall... Possible?

[Free Northman]

I think it's possible you guys aren't necessarily arguing different things when it comes to why the CotF went/fled north. I may have understood both your posts wrong, but what I did understand is: @Black Crow, are you saying the CotF fled north - fled as in were somehow pushed or forced? @Free Northman, are you saying they had to go north because humans in general occupied Westeros, leaving them little choice? Because I kinda agree with both ideas. And I'll add that this move north (the CotF fleeing) has to do with their network (weirwoods) being all but extinguished south of the Wall... Possible?

The exact circumstances behind their dwindling and eventual disappearance south of the Wall are not really important to me.

I just disagree with the suggestion that the Children deliberately raised the Wall to seal off the Far North as THEIR last refuge. Instead, I think this was merely a by-product of the need to seal the Others off from the rest of Westeros.

The poor Children got the worst end of the deal. Not only did they save mankind by using their magic to erect the Wall, thus protecting mankind from the Others. No, on top of that, they also ended up having no choice but to go and occuppy this crappy, half frozen area outside the safe zone, because it happened to be the only area where men did not crowd them out.

It's kind of like some dolphins helping people to set up shark nets around a beach, but then because so many people start swimming behind the shelter of the shark nets, the dolphins are now forced to go and live beyond the shark nets, amongst the sharks.

Black Crow, on the other hand, is saying that the dolphins helped erect the shark nets, because they actually see it as human nets, keeping the humans penned in close to shore, and thus leaving the area beyond to the dolphins and sharks.

Furthermore, Black Crow seems to be saying that the sharks are actually servants of the dolphins, deliberately sent against the humans to scare them into putting up the shark nets, in order to keep them hemmed in close to shore.

This is the point I disagree with completely.

[Black Crow]

The exact circumstances behind their dwindling and eventual disappearance south of the Wall are not really important to me.

I just disagree with the suggestion that the Children deliberately raised the Wall to seal off the Far North as THEIR last refuge. Instead, I think this was merely a by-product of the need to seal the Others off from the rest of Westeros.

The poor Children got the worst end of the deal. Not only did they save mankind by using their magic to erect the Wall, thus protecting mankind from the Others. No, on top of that, they also ended up having no choice but to go and occuppy this crappy, half frozen area outside the safe zone, because it happened to be the only area where men did not crowd them out.

It's kind of like some dolphins helping people to set up shark nets around a beach, but then because so many people start swimming behind the shelter of the shark nets, the dolphins are now forced to go and live beyond the shark nets, amongst the sharks.

Black Crow, on the other hand, is saying that the dolphins helped erect the shark nets, because they actually see it as human nets, keeping the humans penned in close to shore, and thus leaving the area beyond to the dolphins and sharks.

Furthermore, Black Crow seems to be saying that the sharks are actually servants of the dolphins, deliberately sent against the humans to scare them into putting up the shark nets, in order to keep them hemmed in close to shore.

This is the point I disagree with completely.

Sounds pretty fishy to me and not what I mean at all, but as I'm about to turn in you'll forgive me if I leave it for tomorrow.

Good night one and all :cheers:

[Eyron]

I'll comment only on the animate vs inanimate part of Ice and Fire for now, as the rest is a bit speculative, in my view.

I'm not really sure in this case. It all depends on what the Others actually are. If they are natural beings that simply utilize the Power of Ice, then sure, Ice can be an inanimate force. But if they are supernatural entities, they may well be some type of Ice spirit. Either way, I don't think they are simply evil men. They are something else. Some other kind of life form.

I think they are aliens who want to terraform the entire planet into an icy wasteland, which resembles their natural habitat. Just like the Dragons would love the entire world to be a volcanic wasteland.

The Children, on the other hand, are the ones that represent normal life as we know it. Nature in balance between Ice and Fire.

My post is speculative allright, isn't yours?

I guess you don't agree with my Wall-theory then :)

Unfortunately I think we will not see any answers to the question on what makes the powers of magic grow, or how they came to this world. The alien lifeform-theory is possible to me considering GRRM's interest in SciFi but really hard for me to see it set in this story.

A reason I like to think the forces of magic is inanimate is that GRRM focus so much on the human conditions and internal struggle in individuals. I think the use of magic (and sacrifice of others) as a means to immortality, to fulfil greedy needs and to win in the games of politics, is meant to be a symbol of human degradation, corruption of power and the immense destructive forces some few chosen have access to.

And I don't think there are any purely evil powers so far in GRRM's story, apart from war itself and the destruction caused by the warring parties. Even Melisandre is not entirely evil (though she is stupid and cruel, but from what I understand she thinks she is saving the world), the dragons are not either (just like animals are not good or bad, they are just hungry and fit for survival), and I don't think the Others are just evil since they have some kind of social life which to me implies human qualities (seen in prologue of AGoT).

The red priests and the Others act like people who are trying to conquer other peoples. And they are using magic to do it, and to get magic you have to descend to evil actions.

So I see an external evil power, that has a hold over the red priests/dragons or the Others, as a unnecessary and undesirable element because to me that would somehow diminish the evil doings of the people (or beings) involved. Like the wights for example, they are probably controlled by Others and I can't say I feel the wights are personally responsible for their murders.

[Eyron]

Could the White Walkers have originally been the Children's ultimate weapon of mass destruction, unleashed in desperation when they were threatened by extinction by the First Men? (The Children's "dragons", if you will.) Maybe they - the Children - used a powerful sorcery to bring about these White Walkers, but they don't have full control over them (sorcery being a sword without a hilt and unsafe to grasp and all), and the White Walkers can only be held in abeyance by the wards in the Wall, and the words of the Watch? (Sorry, couldn't resist ;))

Aye, it is possible but this would ruin my idea of the Children having the decency not to meddle in this kind of magic, and my image of them as stronger than they look :)

The history could be wrong about these events and maybe there was no pact before the Long Night, or maybe the First men broke the pact and the Children did this.

But there are so many things that make me think the Children are a third force and not part of the ice and fire contraposition.

For some reason I think if anybody unleashed the Others (or White Walkers, I can't decide what to call them) I think it was the First Men, and they had to come begging for the Children to help them put a leash back on their creation. That's just so typical for people to do.

[kissdbyfire]

My post is speculative allright, isn't yours?

Oh! Silly me, thinking pretty much everything is speculative! Well, I'm sure mine are... :P

Unfortunately I think we will not see any answers to the question on what makes the powers of magic grow, or how they came to this world. The alien lifeform-theory is possible to me considering GRRM's interest in SciFi but really hard for me to see it set in this story.

I like much and more of what @Free Northman is saying. I also like very much lots of things most people are saying here. I'm getting fuzzier and fuzzier on some things, but other things are coming together in my mind - all speculative and still have a loooooong way to go.

But one thing that bothers me a bit in your theory, @Free Northman, is exactly the 'alien' or 'sci-fy-ish' component of it because of this from an interview GRRM gave to Vulture:

-"So, you don't want to be explaining midi-chlorian levels?"

-"If I wanted to write science fiction, I would write science fiction."

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/10/george_rr_martin_on_his_favori.html

[hotweaselsoup]

Aye, it is possible but this would ruin my idea of the Children having the decency not to meddle in this kind of magic, and my image of them as stronger than they look :)

The history could be wrong about these events and maybe there was no pact before the Long Night, or maybe the First men broke the pact and the Children did this.

But there are so many things that make me think the Children are a third force and not part of the ice and fire contraposition.

For some reason I think if anybody unleashed the Others (or White Walkers, I can't decide what to call them) I think it was the First Men, and they had to come begging for the Children to help them put a leash back on their creation. That's just so typical for people to do.

I see what you're saying - I mean, we want the Children to be the ones who get it, who understand the green world and are above the petty power-mongering and greed of men. But the world of ASoIaF is a world of conflict, both internal and external. It's just one big stew of clashing cultures, clashing Houses, clashing kings and brothers and gods, and it would seem odd (to me) to set the Children apart. The stories say that the Children bore weapons and wore armor, and fought a war with the First Men. The stories also say that the First Men had superior weapons and numbers, and were winning the war. So - what turned the tide? Did the First Men suddenly see the error of their ways and decide not to extinguish the Children after all? What led to the Pact? The Children must have had some sort of leverage to bring the First Men to the table.

We know, or have heard through the legends, that the Children broke the Arm of Dorne in an attempt to keep the humans out, so they seem to be able to wield IMMENSE power. There is also that tale about the hammer of the waters at Moat Cailin, and the threat or attempt by the greenseers to bring the hammer down and break the Neck. Something stopped them here - a pact with the crannogmen? - but the sense these two stories give me is of a desperate race who is being pushed ever northward by encroaching hordes of humans, and their use of immense elemental powers - or the threat of their use - in an attempt to stop the advance.

The White Walkers just feel like another such elemental weapon of last resort to me. And there are interesting parallels between the Reeds and the Starks - recruits of the Children to man Moat Cailin and the Wall, these last lines of defense? Greywater Watch, the Night's Watch.

[TrueLion]

Well, the First Men, or the ancestors of the Starks at least, had to learn magic from somewhere. So warging = leverage? And adding onto the Reeds and the Starks, one of the early Kings in the North or Kings of Winter killed the king of the Neck and married his daughter IIRC. Hardcore crackpot theory: that was a daughter of the CotF, perhaps the only CotF whoever married/mated with the First Men--their second mistake besides teaching the warging--hence the greendreaming, small statured, uber hard to find crannogmen. Same can kind of be said w/the Giants and Umbers, but I digress.

I do agree with Eira and the idea of the First Men awakening the Others, maybe by way of the magic the CotF taught them? Begging for help could have produced the NW, Wall, obsidian daggers, etc.

[hotweaselsoup]

Well, the First Men, or the ancestors of the Starks at least, had to learn magic from somewhere. So warging = leverage? And adding onto the Reeds and the Starks, one of the early Kings in the North or Kings of Winter killed the king of the Neck and married his daughter IIRC. Hardcore crackpot theory: that was a daughter of the CotF, perhaps the only CotF whoever married/mated with the First Men--their second mistake besides teaching the warging--hence the greendreaming, small statured, uber hard to find crannogmen. Same can kind of be said w/the Giants and Umbers, but I digress.

I do agree with Eira and the idea of the First Men awakening the Others, maybe by way of the magic the CotF taught them? Begging for help could have produced the NW, Wall, obsidian daggers, etc.

Yes, I can see a possible scenario where the First Men created and/or unleashed the White Walkers, but then lost control of the creatures and needed the help of the Children to rein them in. But I'm having trouble with the idea that the Children gave their erstwhile enemies such power in the first place, especially knowing humankind's propensities. Ah - it's all lost in the mists of time for now! Wish that Howland Reed would show already :D

[Lady of Long Lake]

Yes, I can see a possible scenario where the First Men created and/or unleashed the White Walkers, but then lost control of the creatures and needed the help of the Children to rein them in. But I'm having trouble with the idea that the Children gave their erstwhile enemies such power in the first place, especially knowing humankind's propensities. Ah - it's all lost in the mists of time for now! Wish that Howland Reed would show already :D

I know if Howland Reed ever shows up and opens his mouth to talk....I will break out in a sweat and start to hyperventilate and pass out before the wise one speaks.

I love your previous post HWS! Where is that story about the Arm of Dorne and the Hammer at Moat Cailin? In a Bran chapter from Meera?

[hotweaselsoup]

I know if Howland Reed ever shows up and opens his mouth to talk....I will break out in a sweat and start to hyperventilate and pass out before the wise one speaks.

I love your previous post HWS! Where is that story about the Arm of Dorne and the Hammer at Moat Cailin? In a Bran chapter from Meera?

hey thanks :)

The info about the Arm of Dorne comes from the chapter where Maester Luwin is telling Bran about the Children of the Forest. Here's the pertinent part:

But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood goves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

The hammer of the waters is discussed in a couple of places - one I think is Catelyn's chapter when she meets Robb at Moat Cailin. There is just a passing reference:

(She is describing the ruin) "...And the tall, slender Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown."

The other reference is from the Theon chapter where he is out looking for the escaped Bran and Rickon. Maester Luwin is in the search party. He says, in reference to the Reed children: "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

Both references are admittedly sketchy and vague, and there may be other info about the hammer of the waters that I have missed. Not a lot to build a theory on, I know - but plenty enough for wild speculation, right? :D

[Free Northman]

I was wondering whether the Hammer of the Waters was not some kind of Asteroid impact, and that this is what released the Dragons and Others into the world?

[Free Northman]

My post is speculative allright, isn't yours?

I guess you don't agree with my Wall-theory then :)

Unfortunately I think we will not see any answers to the question on what makes the powers of magic grow, or how they came to this world. The alien lifeform-theory is possible to me considering GRRM's interest in SciFi but really hard for me to see it set in this story.

A reason I like to think the forces of magic is inanimate is that GRRM focus so much on the human conditions and internal struggle in individuals. I think the use of magic (and sacrifice of others) as a means to immortality, to fulfil greedy needs and to win in the games of politics, is meant to be a symbol of human degradation, corruption of power and the immense destructive forces some few chosen have access to.

And I don't think there are any purely evil powers so far in GRRM's story, apart from war itself and the destruction caused by the warring parties. Even Melisandre is not entirely evil (though she is stupid and cruel, but from what I understand she thinks she is saving the world), the dragons are not either (just like animals are not good or bad, they are just hungry and fit for survival), and I don't think the Others are just evil since they have some kind of social life which to me implies human qualities (seen in prologue of AGoT).

The red priests and the Others act like people who are trying to conquer other peoples. And they are using magic to do it, and to get magic you have to descend to evil actions.

So I see an external evil power, that has a hold over the red priests/dragons or the Others, as a unnecessary and undesirable element because to me that would somehow diminish the evil doings of the people (or beings) involved. Like the wights for example, they are probably controlled by Others and I can't say I feel the wights are personally responsible for their murders.

Absolutely. Anything related to the origins of the various powers at play is pure speculation. On my side as well.

[Free Northman]

Oh! Silly me, thinking pretty much everything is speculative! Well, I'm sure mine are... :P

I like much and more of what @Free Northman is saying. I also like very much lots of things most people are saying here. I'm getting fuzzier and fuzzier on some things, but other things are coming together in my mind - all speculative and still have a loooooong way to go.

But one thing that bothers me a bit in your theory, @Free Northman, is exactly the 'alien' or 'sci-fy-ish' component of it because of this from an interview GRRM gave to Vulture:

-"So, you don't want to be explaining midi-chlorian levels?"

-"If I wanted to write science fiction, I would write science fiction."

http://nymag.com/dai...his_favori.html

I also don't want to bring in too many sci-fi elements. I want it to be magical.

So instead the Others being aliens bent on terraforming the planet to their natural habitat, let me rephrase:

The Others are magical creatures of Ice, who want to bring death to the world by extinguising all life through their cold magic.

It is exactly the same as the sci-fi scenario, only without any sci-fi terminology or references.

[Free Northman]

Sounds pretty fishy to me and not what I mean at all, but as I'm about to turn in you'll forgive me if I leave it for tomorrow.

Good night one and all :cheers:

Sorry if I misinterpreted your views. I thought your theory was based on the premise that the Wall was erected to keep Men in the South, rather than the Others in the North.

But I admit I may have lost the plot through this winding thread of very interesting views and theories.