The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[Eyron]

I just read something that might explain this. Let me copy and paste it from the asoiaf wiki:

"The Andals, invade Westeros through the arm of drone with steel weapons and their new religion of the Faith of the Seven. They fight both the First Men and the children of the forest, sweeping the land much as the First Men did thousands of years before and finally extinguishing the latter everywhere south of the Wall. After centuries of fighting, the Andals establish six kingdoms in the south, while the north remains in the hands of the First Men, due in large part to the strategically located fortress of Moat Cailin resisting multiple attempts to take it and thereafter serving as the door between North and South."

That says that 6000 AL, theAndals extinguished the COTF everywhere south of the Wall. But then goes on to say the Andal army couldn't take Moat Caillin. How were the COTF killed if the Andal army couldn't get into the North? Perhaps they used small assassin groups, like Tywin used Gregor Clegane for. I suppose the COTF wouldn't have been hard to find if the Andals knew they only lived in forests.

Firstly, the Andals did not invade via the Arm of Dorne, that is made up info by the one writing that wiki-page.

It is said multiple times in the books that they came by ships over the narrow sea, by this time the Arms of Dorne was already shattered. It was the First Men who came over the Arm of Dorne, from Essos.

Secondly I think the "Andals extinguished the CotF everywhere south of the Wall" is also such a non-fact drawn from other facts and assumption. It could be a character making this assumption or the wiki contributor, it does not matter.

I can imagine this incorrect reasoning goes something like this: We know there are no CotF south of the Wall, and the Andals killed them in the south, the Andals won the war with the First Men, hence the Andals killed all the Children.

We only know that the Children seem to have left all of the Seven Kingdoms, and that the Andals never came north of the Neck.

Hi everyone

So, I've been driving all day, a pain. Only it was really not such a pain because I was listening to some specific ADwD chapters (Roy Dotrice, brilliant). And that has led me to my 'crackpot theory du jour'. I'm knackered, so I won't elaborate - I also need to think a bit before trying to take this any further, so I'll just post the gist of it now.

I think the White Walkers from the Battle for the Dawn WERE First Men.

I realise I must elaborate further, and I'll do it tomorrow. Just wanted to get the idea out there...

I have mentioned this many times, I think the White Walkers are men that have been changed from sorcery (like Melisandre) and the only men that were in Westeros at the time of the Long Night were the First Men.

I have even gone so far as to say that for the sake of the story it is likely that they were Starks (or whatever they were called before Brandon the Builder became a Stark) so we get a darker side to the Starks. That gives Old Nans story of the Night's King some real backstory cred, as in there were Starks who went "to the Dark Side" engaging in sorcery (Great Other?) and there was another Stark, his brother, who supposedly defeated him (like the Last Hero was supposed to have done).

Like in every other story we know from this long back in time, I expect some missing information and some that have become distorted. That the Night's King was the 13th LC and ruled for thirteen years strike me as too specific details to be remembered for 8000 years, especially since it was not written down except perhaps in runes somewhere.

The whole timeline and events of the building of the Wall, the stories of Brandon the builder, the Long Night and the Last Hero and the Night's King seems like a blur to me. The building of the Wall especially, was it before or after the Night's Watch began? Was the Wall small and insignificant or rather big already in the beginning? Were the Others already gone when the Wall was built? Did the Giants really help building the Wall that sealed themselves off from the rest of the realm? Was the Last Hero the first Lord Commander? Were it only the Starks that were involved with the CotF and not the rest of the First men? It seems only individuals of the Starks and free folks are wargs.

Why did the first King in the North, supposedly Bran the builder, give up most of his kingdom (the lands north of the Wall) by building the Wall straight through it? Why were the old Starks called the Kings of Winter, if it's not significant?

And what is up with the Fist of First men? Why did Ghost not want to go in there, Ghost who don't fear Melisandre or wights?

Sorry, I'm a bit confused right now :D

[Free Northman]

Firstly, the Andals did not invade via the Arm of Dorne, that is made up info by the one writing that wiki-page.

It is said multiple times in the books that they came by ships over the narrow sea, by this time the Arms of Dorne was already shattered. It was the First Men who came over the Arm of Dorne, from Essos.

Secondly I think the "Andals extinguished the CotF everywhere south of the Wall" is also such a non-fact drawn from other facts and assumption. It could be a character making this assumption or the wiki contributor, it does not matter.

I can imagine this incorrect reasoning goes something like this: We know there are no CotF south of the Wall, and the Andals killed them in the south, the Andals won the war with the First Men, hence the Andals killed all the Children.

We only know that the Children seem to have left all of the Seven Kingdoms, and that the Andals never came north of the Neck.

I have mentioned this many times, I think the White Walkers are men that have been changed from sorcery (like Melisandre) and the only men that were in Westeros at the time of the Long Night were the First Men.

I have even gone so far as to say that for the sake of the story it is likely that they were Starks (or whatever they were called before Brandon the Builder became a Stark) so we get a darker side to the Starks. That gives Old Nans story of the Night's King some real backstory cred, as in there were Starks who went "to the Dark Side" engaging in sorcery (Great Other?) and there was another Stark, his brother, who supposedly defeated him (like the Last Hero was supposed to have done).

Like in every other story we know from this long back in time, I expect some missing information and some that have become distorted. That the Night's King was the 13th LC and ruled for thirteen years strike me as too specific details to be remembered for 8000 years, especially since it was not written down except perhaps in runes somewhere.

The whole timeline and events of the building of the Wall, the stories of Brandon the builder, the Long Night and the Last Hero and the Night's King seems like a blur to me. The building of the Wall especially, was it before or after the Night's Watch began? Was the Wall small and insignificant or rather big already in the beginning? Were the Others already gone when the Wall was built? Did the Giants really help building the Wall that sealed themselves off from the rest of the realm? Was the Last Hero the first Lord Commander? Were it only the Starks that were involved with the CotF and not the rest of the First men? It seems only individuals of the Starks and free folks are wargs.

Why did the first King in the North, supposedly Bran the builder, give up most of his kingdom (the lands north of the Wall) by building the Wall straight through it? Why were the old Starks called the Kings of Winter, if it's not significant?

And what is up with the Fist of First men? Why did Ghost not want to go in there, Ghost who don't fear Melisandre or wights?

Sorry, I'm a bit confused right now :D

The Children continued to exist long after the Wall was created. We know this because Sam discovered written records about the Children annually giving the Watch a gift of 1000 obsidian arrowheads or something like that. And we are told that writing only arrived in Westeros with the Andals. So if this gift was recorded in writing, it must have happened AFTER the Andals and the art of writing had arrived in Westeros. In fact, I believe that Sam actually dated the time of this recorded gift of obsidian weapons to only a few hundred years before the present, if I recall correctly. So the Children clearly still played an active part in the North a significant time after the arrival of the Andals.

Regarding the Andals, I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere in the books that they first landed in the Vale of Arryn. And this also makes sense given that the Arryns are apparently of the blood of Highest Andal nobility, with the Vale being the area where Andal ideals of knighthood and chivalry are upheld most strongly.

In contrast to the Arryns, for example, the Lannisters are not of the blood of Andal nobility. Instead, they are descendant from Andal adventurers who set out from the initial Andal kingdoms in the eastern part of Westeros to explore the frontier Westerlands, much like the American West was colonized by frontiersman and adventurers while the upper class families remained in the old Eastern states of America.

So you are correct. The Andals didn't come through the Arm of Dorne. They came through the Vale, and spread across the rest of the South from there.

[FanTasy]

Final Question: Do we ever see if Mel's magic can go beyond the wall? Can she use her sense power to sense beyond it or send shadow stuff beyond it, I don't remember it being talked about but I read ADWD really quickly and right when it came out so I've forgotten a surprising amount.

There is this scene Stannis describes to Davos. Melisandre let hem see in the flames and he saw a circle of torches at a top of a hill in the North. And people who tried to keep bad things away. Melisandre showed him the terror that(ed.) lies in the darkness and that fire should be used to fight it. I don't have the exact quote, this is how I remember it.

Could Melisandre have shown him what happened at the Fist?

[Black Crow]

The Children continued to exist long after the Wall was created. We know this because Sam discovered written records about the Children annually giving the Watch a gift of 1000 obsidian arrowheads or something like that. And we are told that writing only arrived in Westeros with the Andals. So if this gift was recorded in writing, it must have happened AFTER the Andals and the art of writing had arrived in Westeros. In fact, I believe that Sam actually dated the time of this recorded gift of obsidian weapons to only a few hundred years before the present, if I recall correctly. So the Children clearly still played an active part in the North a significant time after the arrival of the Andals.

Nope, Sam delivers his health warning: "The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later." Then goes on to say "The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes". Not only is the story recounting something that happened thousands of years" before the histories were written down by the Andals, but there's no direct connection made between the giving of the dragonglass and the Others/White Walkers.

[Black Crow]

There is this scene Stannis describes to Davos. Melisandre let hem see in the flames and he saw a circle of torches at a top of a hill in the North. And people who tried to keep bad things away. Melisandre showed him the terror that(ed.) lies in the darkness and that fire should be used to fight it. I don't have the exact quote, this is how I remember it.

Could Melisandre have shown him what happened at the Fist?

I certainly read it as being the fight on the Fist, but yes I'm curious as to what was up there that Ghost didn't like.

[Free Northman]

Nope, Sam delivers his health warning: "The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later." Then goes on to say "The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes". Not only is the story recounting something that happened thousands of years" before the histories were written down by the Andals, but there's no direct connection made between the giving of the dragonglass and the Others/White Walkers.

Thanks, I just had a vague recollection of that scene with Sam. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

[FanTasy]

If it was the fight at the Fist that was shown to Stannis, we can assume that Melisandre can 'see' beyond the Wall.

[Free Northman]

I certainly read it as being the fight on the Fist, but yes I'm curious as to what was up there that Ghost didn't like.

She also has visions of the rangers sent out by Jon, and what fate would befall them. That also happened North of the Wall.

So her visions are certainly not limited by the magic in the Wall. In fact, she says the Wall actually STRENGTHENS her magic.

[Black Crow]

The magic in the Wall might be one of those things that maginfies or enhances things so long as you stand at a safe distance, but actually touch it and you're toast.

I know Mel must have gone around the end of the Wall at Eastwatch and then returned to the "civilised" side through the open tunnel, but I don't recall that she ever went on to the Wall to see one of the wonders of the world.

[hotweaselsoup]

The magic in the Wall might be one of those things that maginfies or enhances things so long as you stand at a safe distance, but actually touch it and you're toast.

I know Mel must have gone around the end of the Wall at Eastwatch and then returned to the "civilised" side through the open tunnel, but I don't recall that she ever went on to the Wall to see one of the wonders of the world.

Mel has been on top of the Wall, and through the tunnel beneath it to the north side several times. She rode to the top of the Wall with Jon to meet with Stannis. This was when Stannis did his devil on the mountaintop routine and offered Winterfell to Jon the first time.

ETA: Ghost's reaction at the Fist has had me head-scratching as well. The only thing I can think of is that the direwolves seem to have the ability to sense impending danger, so maybe Ghost didn't want to go into the ringfort because he sensed the upcoming battle with the wights?

[kissdbyfire]

I have mentioned this many times, I think the White Walkers are men that have been changed from sorcery (like Melisandre) and the only men that were in Westeros at the time of the Long Night were the First Men.

I have even gone so far as to say that for the sake of the story it is likely that they were Starks (or whatever they were called before Brandon the Builder became a Stark) so we get a darker side to the Starks. That gives Old Nans story of the Night's King some real backstory cred, as in there were Starks who went "to the Dark Side" engaging in sorcery (Great Other?) and there was another Stark, his brother, who supposedly defeated him (like the Last Hero was supposed to have done).

Like in every other story we know from this long back in time, I expect some missing information and some that have become distorted. That the Night's King was the 13th LC and ruled for thirteen years strike me as too specific details to be remembered for 8000 years, especially since it was not written down except perhaps in runes somewhere.

The whole timeline and events of the building of the Wall, the stories of Brandon the builder, the Long Night and the Last Hero and the Night's King seems like a blur to me. The building of the Wall especially, was it before or after the Night's Watch began? Was the Wall small and insignificant or rather big already in the beginning? Were the Others already gone when the Wall was built? Did the Giants really help building the Wall that sealed themselves off from the rest of the realm? Was the Last Hero the first Lord Commander? Were it only the Starks that were involved with the CotF and not the rest of the First men? It seems only individuals of the Starks and free folks are wargs.

Why did the first King in the North, supposedly Bran the builder, give up most of his kingdom (the lands north of the Wall) by building the Wall straight through it? Why were the old Starks called the Kings of Winter, if it's not significant?

And what is up with the Fist of First men? Why did Ghost not want to go in there, Ghost who don't fear Melisandre or wights?

Sorry, I'm a bit confused right now :D

Sorry, I must have missed your posts about this. :-(

On the other hand, I'm glad, as it means at least one other person thinks it's possible. :-)

And, yes, definitely something along the lines you mention in your post. I haven't been able to connect many of the dots yet, but it's, roughly, something like this:

CotF (and other species that are 'dwindling' now) were the native inhabitants. First Men arrive, CotF and First Men fight for some time and eventually make a pact. CotF teach/show many things to the First Men - including magic, or at least some 'magic related' stuff, spells, etc - and the First Men (operative word is 'man/men), greedy power-hungry destructive as only 'men' can be, misuse it somehow and all hell breaks loose, so to speak.

The details are still very fuzzy, though. I have to play with the whole thing in my head a bit more...

[fassreiter]

In fact it's not just Ghost who reacts funny to the Fist of the First Men. Interesting, I never noticed that. The ravens are making a lot of noise, and Jon thinks tht they can feel something, and he is sceptical about this place because of the lack of water and lack of a clear view, and because something is strange. Dywen says the place smells 'cold'. Something is up there, even before the wights attack. Could it be this was an old place for sacrificing to the Others, or something?

It's GRRM's version of Weathertop, by the way, complete with old stone ring wall and 'wights' attacking. I never noticed that before. I think we might see this place again soon.

[fassreiter]

CotF (and other species that are 'dwindling' now) were the native inhabitants. First Men arrive, CotF and First Men fight for some time and eventually make a pact. CotF teach/show many things to the First Men - including magic, or at least some 'magic related' stuff, spells, etc - and the First Men (operative word is 'man/men), greedy power-hungry destructive as only 'men' can be, misuse it somehow and all hell breaks loose, so to speak.

The details are still very fuzzy, though. I have to play with the whole thing in my head a bit more...

Oh, that is great!!!! And even ties nicely into my theories about the wish to gain immortality, maybe :)

The Fist could be a 'place of power', where some major magic was done and went wrong and thus the Others (or wights) were created/called upon/woken up?

[kissdbyfire]

Hercules's wife also happens to be Deianira. Sound familiar?

If only this could give me some hope of Dany committing suicide...

Seriously now... I would never expect Martin to tell Jon's story by simply tweaking the myth of Hercules. There are several similarities, but the same applies to many other characters, from many other sources, and I don't expect them to be a simple re-telling of mythology and/or history.

There are similarities between ASoIaF and Celtic mythology as well. For instance, there's a Celtic king called Nuada who comes to Ireland in three hundred ships, and he burns the ships after landing. This Nuada loses his right hand in a battle, and the lost hand is replaced by one made of silver.

There's also a queen (not sure if she was a queen or just a woman) called Cessair who is told to go West with her father. Not much there other than the name being similar to Cersei's and the connection to the west, I know.

I think there's also another man, a king, iirc, that dies while hunting a boar...

I need to check these, there are details I don't remember, and I think there are other examples from Celtic mythology.

All I mean is that I really don't think GRRM will simply re-tell any one story/tale/myth, etc.

[Tini]

The Fist of First Men seemed an ancient battlefield. So far I was under the impression that White Walkers completely self-destruct when they are killed but may they do leave some sort of corpses behind. Maybe the animals reacted to these corpses.

[Eyron]

Sorry, I must have missed your posts about this. :-(

On the other hand, I'm glad, as it means at least one other person thinks it's possible. :-)

And, yes, definitely something along the lines you mention in your post. I haven't been able to connect many of the dots yet, but it's, roughly, something like this:

CotF (and other species that are 'dwindling' now) were the native inhabitants. First Men arrive, CotF and First Men fight for some time and eventually make a pact. CotF teach/show many things to the First Men - including magic, or at least some 'magic related' stuff, spells, etc - and the First Men (operative word is 'man/men), greedy power-hungry destructive as only 'men' can be, misuse it somehow and all hell breaks loose, so to speak.

The details are still very fuzzy, though. I have to play with the whole thing in my head a bit more...

I think I have only mentioned it briefly in this thread (and I know I am useless in getting my point across when writing so no wonder!), but it was what I implied when writing about the Others not being some external force, just like the red priest (the ones with slave origin like Melisande and maybe Moqorro) are not. I think they are just people that have used sorcery to ascend to life without death, literaly becoming the element they are worshipping, ice and fire respectively.

The bolded part is exactly what I think. That has been elaborated in another thread but never gained any momentum on this forum :D

I am also very glad to have found someone else thinking like this!

[scurvy]

There's a lot of conjecture about the CotF not being South of the Wall. But, we don't know what's happening on the Isle of Faces. The Green Men control it even though it's in the South. I'm sure good 'ole Howlin' Howland Reed will pop up and give everyone the details they have been looking for on Jon's parentage, the CotF, the Others, and everything else we want to know.

[Free Northman]

I think I have only mentioned it briefly in this thread (and I know I am useless in getting my point across when writing so no wonder!), but it was what I implied when writing about the Others not being some external force, just like the red priest (the ones with slave origin like Melisande and maybe Moqorro) are not. I think they are just people that have used sorcery to ascend to life without death, literaly becoming the element they are worshipping, ice and fire respectively.

The bolded part is exactly what I think. That has been elaborated in another thread but never gained any momentum on this forum :D

I am also very glad to have found someone else thinking like this!

Hmmm. I tend to disagree on this point.

The description we got of the Other in the Prologue of GoT was truly of some very alien being, speaking a kind of clicking, grating language not even remotely similar to the Old Tongue - the language of the First Men.

This thing also wasn't some artificial construct, as it appeared to display a mocking type of humor at Waymar Royce's attempts to fight it.

I believe that like the Dragons, the Others are non-human life forms from another world/dimension or whatever the magical terminology may be.

They aren't simply ancient evil humans corrupted by cold magic. There are such creatures, though. They are called the Wights. Formerly humans, now reanimated by cold magic.

[Black Crow]

I think I have only mentioned it briefly in this thread (and I know I am useless in getting my point across when writing so no wonder!), but it was what I implied when writing about the Others not being some external force, just like the red priest (the ones with slave origin like Melisande and maybe Moqorro) are not. I think they are just people that have used sorcery to ascend to life without death, literaly becoming the element they are worshipping, ice and fire respectively.

Essentially this is what I've been arguing all along; that the White Walkers were once men, but have been transformed/glamoured call it what you will by sorcery of some kind, hence the involvement of Craster's sons and their fiery counterpart in Mel and Moqorro. I reckon they were thus transformed to do the Children's dirty work for them on account of the latter dwindling in number and looking too cute to be scary. There is also, as I've pointed out a connection in their stealth armour.

I also have to disagree though with Northman on the language:

"The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking."

There's tone there, but if it had been Ned Stark speaking we would have read it that he was merciless, not something from the Planet Zog. As for the language that Will did not know... in the context it could easily be the Old Tongue

[Black Crow]

Just as aside without flinging at anybody, least of all Northman, I do find it interesting how people on this board sometimes perceive the White Walkers and ascribe all sorts of traits and characteristics which simply aren't there. The language is one and I've also seen them described as unnaturally tall, superhumanly strong, etc etc. Why?