The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[davidjones2492]

Is it possible that the Others and the Children are the same species but not the same ethnic group? Kind of like how the First Men and the Andals are all "human" but diverge wildly in culture, religion, and worldview?

The story of the Last Hero has him looking for the Children in "the dead lands" after the Others have ravaged the world. According to that story, the Children didn't enter the fight against the Others until the very end, after their help was sought. But there's also a story about the Pact between the Children and the First Men, a Pact sealed on the Isle of Faces in the Riverlands, which stopped their mutual fighting and began the Age of Heroes, an Age that lasted until the Long Night. Yet Andal figures like Lann the Clever supposedly existed during the Age of Heroes, where the Andals supposedly didn't come to Westeros until 2,000 years after the end of the Long Night, which itself supposedly ended the Age of Heroes. The Andals came to Westeros and warred against the First Men and the Children, and written records of interactions between men and Children exist at the Wall, written in the Andals' "common tongue". The Others haven't appeared since then in "common tongue" records, but that makes sense---if they're only in the far North, beyond the Wall, they exist in a place that doesn't have written records in the Common Tongue at all.

If the Others and the Children are two subsets of the same species, it could clear up a lot of confusion. It explains why the Children were found in "the dead lands", which sounds like Others-controlled territory, yet were supposedly willing and able to fight the Others---before the coming of the First Men, the Children might have been warring against the Others themselves, the same way that various human ethnic groups fight against each other throughout the world; yet if the Children were the same species as the Others, it might explain why the Children were living safely in Others-controlled territory while the latter fought the humans. It would explain why the Children were accustomed to fighting with dragonglass daggers---they were already using them to fight the Others, long before men came to Westeros, in the same manner that the First Men and the Andals fought each other.

I'm starting to wonder if it was really the coming of the Andals that instigated the Long Night. That would explain how we have Andal heroes existing during an Age that supposedly stopped long before the Andals claim to have arrived. Because everything we know about the Long Night in Westeros comes from records written by septons, it would explain why the Andals' arrival is pushed back on the "official" timeline---at the time, the representatives of the Faith wouldn't have wanted it known that they warred against the Others and lost, if in fact the Children's aid was necessary for victory.

What gods do the Others worship? Twenty bucks says they keep the Old Gods. Remember how the Others reacted to Waymar Royce back in AGOT? They butchered him like a hog. The one that "fought" him seemed, to Will, to be taunting Royce, and when the rest of the watchers move in, Will notes their laughter. And what do we know about the Royces? They're ancient Andal nobility. As others have noted elsewhere, it's striking how the Others seem unwilling to attack the Free Folk in force; they pick off outriders, they send wights, but if they're really so keen on genocide, why haven't they just attacked in force? Maybe they don't see the Old Gods-worshiping Free Folk as their true enemy---rather, maybe they see them as something that's in the way of the Others attacking their true enemy, the worshipers of the Seven who have begun making inroads into Old Gods-controlled territories. Maybe it wasn't a coincidence that Ned Stark married his wife in a sept instead of a godswood, installed a sept in Winterfell, raised his kids to keep the Seven (and the Old Gods, yes, but the Seven too), and the Others then began moving south.

.

Obviously we don't know much about the religious practices of the Others, but the implication is that they worship the "Great Other" who would appear to be the anthithesis of R'holler. The Fire priests recognise him/her/it as a distinct entity in opposition to their boy.

We now know that the old Gods are very different; this religion is steeped in the idea of natural forces and the Gods themselves are the spirits/memories of Children and men who have gone before.

This is very different to the picture that the fire people paint of the great Other; I can't see that they are in anyway linked.

[Armstark]

Very interesting thread. I think Black Crow raises good points about the Children and their relationship with the First Men, about the Pact and the Long Night, but I disagree with his idea of the Wall being a protection for the Others and the Children against the Men or R´hollor or whatever.

My theory is that the Children of old were quite adept at Magic, but pursued a balance of the elements of nature, as the Reeds oath to Bran seems to suggest. As Hotweaselsoup suggests, I think that the Children either threatened with unleashing the power of the Others (Ice) over the First Men (who came with bronze, which happens to be forged through fire), or helped the Men a way to protect themselves from the Others. One way of the others, through the Pact the COT forced the First Men to respect the balance of nature, probably in exchange for sharing part of their magical powers with them. I think this theory links beautifully with Old Nan story that Black Crow kindly and wisely brought up.

Probably was as a result of the Pact that the Wall was built, with the Children teaching the Men how to protect themselves from the element of Ice. As an interesting side note, I have the vague sensation that the great tower of Oldtown and the order of the Maesters are a "fire" version of the Wall and the Night Watch...

The "official" history of Westeros greatly suggest, at least for me, that the arrivals of the Andals and their Seven (again with weapons forged of iron... fire), was the incident that forced the Children and other "magical" creatures such as direwolves, giants, etc... beyond the Wall, in a no go area for the followers of the Fire. The COT were able at least to protect themselves against the Others, maybe invoking ancient pacts, and in the North the First Men remembered the Pact, but this was forgotten everywhere else...

I don´t know if the existent timelines support my next point, but I will make a leap of faith here. I think that the story of AA is somehow linked to a victory of Fire over Ice (that is forced to retreat beyond the Wall) and the ascendancy of Valyria. For generations most of the world had a Long Summer, with the Freehold reigning supreme almost everywhere.

But then, the Doom came, and the predominance of the element of Fire started to vanish... the seasons became unstable, magic gradually dissipated, the winters started growing longer... Unbent by its old enemy, Ice is coming.... but Fire has not being dead, only sleeping, and it is coming back fast (Dany and her Dragons, R´hollor...). I think that the stage is set for a millennia old cosmic battle, one that will lay the world waste, unless the COT can find a way to remind the Men of the Pact and therefore restore balance...

Don´t take me wrong, I don´t think the COT are a bunch of tree hugging friendly folks, as everyone else in Martinworld they must have committed terrible acts in order to survive in such harsh conditions.

I think there is enough evidence in the text to at least make my ideas plausible, and loads of, for me, veiled suggestions about them.

excellent! Of all the theories and ideas floating around in this thread I find this the most convincing. all fits in nicely

[mrazny]

I don't want to get too hung up on an absolute vision of the endgame and positions when there are so many unclear events that are the basis of these theories. Some of the pieces on both sides of the argument are seemingly Extremely Important, and to latch onto one side or the other seems to need to disregard some facts and circumstances.

I'm very excited to see how it all unravels...

Here's some bits to hopefully add to the discourse, not to fuel a disagreement.

The Wall; Castle Black was not created at the same time of the Nightfort. Its easy to assume that castles were created at the same time, but what if they weren't? If it's simply a barrier, it doesn't need to be manned.

To keep with this thought, if the present is a commentary on the past, King's Landing (the Andals) is dismissive of the Night's Watch and the North's concerns (the First Men). Obviously at some point the First Men of the North came to some sort of peace with the Andals of the South, but it didn't seem that it took Aegon the Conqueror to get Andals to also man to Watch.

Sam was able to pass, and as some have pointed out he took his vows with Jon in the manner of the Old Gods. And much has been made of the Night's Watch keeping "true". Perhaps if Sam didn't take his vow amongst the weirwoods that he wouldn't have been able to pass?

So for Andals to man the Watch, you would need tunnels for them to pass, and a more tangible plan than "once upon a time there were these cold things that brought an endless winter". The motivations could've been skewed over the years and peace with the Andals. The Castles might've only been erected after the Andals became a part of the Watch for all we know. And as the was pointed out about the Night's King and the Nightfort in general, the stories seem convenient and diversionary to keep men away from the tunnels of that place. Perhaps some event led them to feel it neccesary to "forget" aspects of the watch, whether defecting or any event at that point in history that mirrored a mistake even further back in history.

COTF

an aside: I got a Faun from Pan's Labyrinth vibe from the Children. An ambiguous nature that is faintly dangerous.

The COTF were once aggressive and vengeful enough if them destroying the Arm of Dorne is to be believed. Now they seem resigned to their fate and peaceful. Their assumed reduced numbers could be a lot of it. But i get the feeling (and yes it's just a feeling) that it's either part of the story, or just the other consequence for whatever brought about the change in their demeanor.

The conjecture I'll add is the possibility that the WW are a result of the COTF's old ways. Their magic as it stands today seems to Only be greenseeing, which is observant, passive, and neutral. Either as the only subculture of the COTF that survived the wars and the long night, or the only magic they are comfortable with exercising any longer.

[tze]

Obviously we don't know much about the religious practices of the Others, but the implication is that they worship the "Great Other" who would appear to be the anthithesis of R'holler. The Fire priests recognise him/her/it as a distinct entity in opposition to their boy.

We now know that the old Gods are very different; this religion is steeped in the idea of natural forces and the Gods themselves are the spirits/memories of Children and men who have gone before.

This is very different to the picture that the fire people paint of the great Other; I can't see that they are in anyway linked.

I think "the Great Other" is what the Faceless Men worship, not what the Others worship. I honestly don't think R'hllor OR the Great Other have anything to do with Westeros or the Others/Children at all---I think it's a purely Essosi construct. Mel's "fire good, ice bad" mantra seems painfully out of step with the realities of Westeros, and I'd be shocked in the extreme if it turns out that her religious worldview is at all applicable to the forces at play in Westeros.

Because Melisandre has been on the Wall as you say, and even gets stronger from it's magic as it seems, I think that the magic infused in it is actually not preventing "fire magic-people" to pass.

Just a thought---how sure are we that Mel really is more powerful at the Wall? She tells herself that she's more powerful there than anywhere, even than in Asshai, but are we sure that isn't just her personal delusions acting up again? It occurs to me that Mel hasn't actually demonstrated any tangible abilities at the Wall that she claims she could not do elsewhere. She says she can produce even more powerful shadowbabies there, but never has the opportunity to put her money where her mouth is and produce those shadowbabies. She puts glamors on Mance and Rattleshirt, but emphasizes how incredibly difficult that was in her POV, and there's no indication that it was even more difficult in the south than at the Wall. Stannis's sword seems to be getting shinier, but that could just be down to effort and practice on Mel's part. Her presence causes things to melt, but every other time we've seen her, she's been in the warm south---there's no evidence that this is a new ability.

She says that "every gesture and word is more potent", but I'm honestly starting to wonder if maybe Mel just subconsciously assumes she should be more powerful at the Wall, in a fight against the ice-loving Others, and has convinced herself that the Wall is a place of special power for her, when in reality it might be nothing of the sort.

(An alternative theory is that Bloodraven is fucking with her from his hollow hill, "boosting" her magic to preserve her delusions cause he wants her good and arrogant (a la Varys and Cersei) for whatever he has planned for her. Which . . . would be kind of awesome.)

Also, it seems pretty clear than the COT used to support the Watch, and they gave them dragonglass, what we already know is able to destroy the Others. Probably this support stopped when the followers of the Seven started manning the Watch, another indication of the links between the Pact, the Children, the Wall and the Watch.

I never even made that connection. I think that could make a lot of sense.

[Armand Gargalen]

I don't want to get too hung up on an absolute vision of the endgame and positions when there are so many unclear events that are the basis of these theories. Some of the pieces on both sides of the argument are seemingly Extremely Important, and to latch onto one side or the other seems to need to disregard some facts and circumstances.

I'm very excited to see how it all unravels...

Here's some bits to hopefully add to the discourse, not to fuel a disagreement.

The Wall; Castle Black was not created at the same time of the Nightfort. Its easy to assume that castles were created at the same time, but what if they weren't? If it's simply a barrier, it doesn't need to be manned.

To keep with this thought, if the present is a commentary on the past, King's Landing (the Andals) is dismissive of the Night's Watch and the North's concerns (the First Men). Obviously at some point the First Men of the North came to some sort of peace with the Andals of the South, but it didn't seem that it took Aegon the Conqueror to get Andals to also man to Watch.

Sam was able to pass, and as some have pointed out he took his vows with Jon in the manner of the Old Gods. And much has been made of the Night's Watch keeping "true". Perhaps if Sam didn't take his vow amongst the weirwoods that he wouldn't have been able to pass?

So for Andals to man the Watch, you would need tunnels for them to pass, and a more tangible plan than "once upon a time there were these cold things that brought an endless winter". The motivations could've been skewed over the years and peace with the Andals. The Castles might've only been erected after the Andals became a part of the Watch for all we know. And as the was pointed out about the Night's King and the Nightfort in general, the stories seem convenient and diversionary to keep men away from the tunnels of that place. Perhaps some event led them to feel it neccesary to "forget" aspects of the watch, whether defecting or any event at that point in history that mirrored a mistake even further back in history.

Really good observations about the Night Watch. It is clear from AGOT that the Watch has forgotten its true purpose, probably during the Long Summer and/or the coming of the Andals. Most crows completely believe they are there to fend off the wildings, and most dismiss the old tales about the Others as nothing more than old scary tales.

Also, it seems pretty clear than the COT used to support the Watch, and they gave them dragonglass, what we already know is able to destroy the Others. Probably this support stopped when the followers of the Seven started manning the Watch, another indication of the links between the Pact, the Children, the Wall and the Watch.

[Eyron]

I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm still wondering what conditions brought about the Pact in the first place, and why - if your theory is true - the Children would give their powers to a race that was formerly trying to wipe them out?

The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze.[<----Children losing the war, possibly on the brink of extermination at the hands of the First Men. What happens here? To lead to ---->] Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers* amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

I can see the "wisdom of both races prevailing" if some sort of stalemate had been reached, if two evenly-matched sides had simply tired of the endless bloodshed and warring and decided to call a truce. But, if the accounts are to be believed, the two sides were not evenly matched: the First Men were winning because of their superior numbers, weapons and strength. So how did the purportedly losing side get the winning side to meet with them on their turf (the Gods Eye), in front of their gods (the weirwoods), and agree to lay down their arms and give them half of Westeros?

My theory is that the Children threatened to use a "weapon of mass destruction" against the First Men - threatened to break the Neck, maybe, or cause(d) some other terrible flood or cataclysm - and this threat is what led to the the Pact. Moreover, perhaps the Children demanded hostages - a son from each king, say - to ensure that the First Men honored the peace?

It does seem that the crannogmen formed an especially close alliance with the Children - maybe through marriage? - and it seems that they have been given or learned some magic as a result. Changing earth to water with a word, and making castles appear and disappear, for example - so I could be wrong in thinking that the Children would not trust their former enemies enough to give them their powers.

Not sure what happened later to bring on the Long Night, but I feel like promises were broken.

* what the heck is a wood dancer?

These are all very good points, and I struggle with understanding the timeline and the stories.

I too feel like some pact was broken and that led to the Long Night. Problem is we don't know enough of any pacts to know when or why they were made really.

About what made the pact an option for the First Men, there is another aspect that I don't think we have addressed, from what I remember this very moment, the fact that the winning side in the wars between the First Men and the Children are not certain. As well as the Andals would like to portray themselves as victors and perhaps change the truth in their records a bit, so could the First Men. We don't know if the First Men were so invincible as they would have history remember them. Even if it was the Andals who wrote down the stories, the ideas must have come from the First Men.

I have thought about how the First Men could ever defeat the Children, who had greenseers, wargs and a land full of animals and other species to fight for them. Direwolves, mammoths and giants in great numbers are not easily fought on ground. And it is hard to fight someone sitting in a tree shooting arrows, yourself armed with a sword or an axe... Cutting down trees is a method which the First Men adopted but that was more a preventive action than a way to defeat the Children directly.

However, we know the weirwoods have some magical power, and the trees were cut down all over the south forcing the Children to the north of Westeros. What if the balance the Children uphold were connected with the trees? In the trees lingered memories and perhaps spirits of greenseers from thousands of years, taking part in the song for the earth perhaps and in keeping the balance, maybe they also were part of keeping the seasons in order?

So when the First Men cut them down balance was disturbed and the Long Night came.

Now I am going to speculate wildly...The children had perhaps experienced his before, perhaps there had been a different race that lived in Westeros as Tze said, that became White Walkers from wielding the magic of ice, but were defeated by the Children and their weirwoodsmanship before.

I know I am going out far here but bear with me, I have to get these thoughts out of my system!

Perhaps in that winter some First Men became pious and a cult of the "god" of Winter began (similar to the R'hllor cult) and the keeper of that tradition we see in Craster. Whereas other First Men believed in the powers of the Children, sought them out for help, and joined them. So there was a battle of powers between factions of First Men, with the White Walkers on one side, and the Children on the other (as we now see in the Starks).

The ones sacrificing to the forces of Winter were "protected" (like maffia-insurance) from the White Walkers, and the phenomenon generated more White Walkers (like Craster's sons).

The ones on the side of the Children got their abilities (greendreams, wargs, greenseers) from them to help uphold the balance, and they eventually succeeded. That time around...

Now the powers of the Children are dwindling again, they don't even have a greenseer of their own, they had to take on Bloodraven for that task, and now Bran. Maybe it's because of their weakening that winter has come again, and with it the never-dying White Walkers (ice preserves...) that are now slowly building up their army and refilling their ranks.

I have not thought much about the Wood dancers before, but going with GRRM's habit of calling battle or fight "dance" I guess they were fighters (I see ninjas hiding in trees in my mind right now) :ph34r:

And today, as I was thinking about this, something else occurred to me... 'If' the First Men did something like that, it would make sense for them to keep repeating 'the north remembers', as in 'the north remembers its own mistakes' and won't let them happen again (hopefully).

:-)

I too think there is something more to that saying than just being stubborn and vindictive. It's like a mantra, but it seems they forgot what to remember.

Just like the Starks seem to have forgotten why they must be prepared for winter... Winter is coming... Yeah, sure but what are you going to do about it? Hm, can't seem to remember that part, store more food?

This made me think. What if the Wall isnt there to stop anything living? What if its an enchanted barrier that holds back a true winter (as opposed to a bit of cold & snow). So Winter creatures cannot pass through North to South but everyone else can pass South to North, maybe its made of Ice because as the cold reaches the barrier it cannot pass and so accumulates there? GRRM said there is some magical explanation for the seasons.

I think this is right, the Wall is supposed to hold back winter itself so that the White Walkers can't pass because they go where the cold goes. It does seem like the wights can pass so probably that is their purpose, to breach the Wall and let winter and therefore the White Walkers through. The magic seems to work rather poorly regarding the wights. That is the confusing part according to me.

I never thought the magic in the Wall held anything back from the south though, not more than a wall usually does in being a great obstacle. That is why I thought the Night's Watch was there (as much as they are keeping an eye out for winter), to prevent people from coming north to the protected lands of the Children and old species.

In the post you quoted I was thinking of how other have said that the Wall keeps R'hllor followers like Melisandre and dragons away too, and I don't think the Wall work that way. What you are saying is much more plausible.

[Eyron]

Here's some bits to hopefully add to the discourse, not to fuel a disagreement.

The Wall; Castle Black was not created at the same time of the Nightfort. Its easy to assume that castles were created at the same time, but what if they weren't? If it's simply a barrier, it doesn't need to be manned.

To keep with this thought, if the present is a commentary on the past, King's Landing (the Andals) is dismissive of the Night's Watch and the North's concerns (the First Men). Obviously at some point the First Men of the North came to some sort of peace with the Andals of the South, but it didn't seem that it took Aegon the Conqueror to get Andals to also man to Watch.

Sam was able to pass, and as some have pointed out he took his vows with Jon in the manner of the Old Gods. And much has been made of the Night's Watch keeping "true". Perhaps if Sam didn't take his vow amongst the weirwoods that he wouldn't have been able to pass?

So for Andals to man the Watch, you would need tunnels for them to pass, and a more tangible plan than "once upon a time there were these cold things that brought an endless winter". The motivations could've been skewed over the years and peace with the Andals. The Castles might've only been erected after the Andals became a part of the Watch for all we know. And as the was pointed out about the Night's King and the Nightfort in general, the stories seem convenient and diversionary to keep men away from the tunnels of that place. Perhaps some event led them to feel it neccesary to "forget" aspects of the watch, whether defecting or any event at that point in history that mirrored a mistake even further back in history.

To back up your theory, we know that the castles were built long after the Wall, except the Nightfort which was the oldest. And also happened to be the castle with the speaking weirwood gate. And the most famous renegade brothers and even a Commander who fought another castle of the NW had their origin here too, besides the Night's King and the other horror stories. Suspicious.

There is a whole thread on the issue of the gate below the Nightfort, and the meaning of saying the vow before the weirwood. To me it seems that the weirwood grants passage if it "recognizes" the man saying the vow, which it only could if the man said the vow before another weirwood.

Very good point about the change of motivation for the Night's Watch.

Just a thought---how sure are we that Mel really is more powerful at the Wall? She tells herself that she's more powerful there than anywhere, even than in Asshai, but are we sure that isn't just her personal delusions acting up again? It occurs to me that Mel hasn't actually demonstrated any tangible abilities at the Wall that she claims she could not do elsewhere. She says she can produce even more powerful shadowbabies there, but never has the opportunity to put her money where her mouth is and produce those shadowbabies. She puts glamors on Mance and Rattleshirt, but emphasizes how incredibly difficult that was in her POV, and there's no indication that it was even more difficult in the south than at the Wall. Stannis's sword seems to be getting shinier, but that could just be down to effort and practice on Mel's part. Her presence causes things to melt, but every other time we've seen her, she's been in the warm south---there's no evidence that this is a new ability.

She says that "every gesture and word is more potent", but I'm honestly starting to wonder if maybe Mel just subconsciously assumes she should be more powerful at the Wall, in a fight against the ice-loving Others, and has convinced herself that the Wall is a place of special power for her, when in reality it might be nothing of the sort.

(An alternative theory is that Bloodraven is fucking with her from his hollow hill, "boosting" her magic to preserve her delusions cause he wants her good and arrogant (a la Varys and Cersei) for whatever he has planned for her. Which . . . would be kind of awesome.)

Yes it seems she is stronger, that is why I put in that little word there :)

That last part about Bloodravens mindeffing her is awesome!

I don't know if this is a translatable saying but where I come from we say "pride goes before fall". So yes, please?

We discussed where Jojens greendreams come from in another thread a while back and my idea was that he is a receiver of sorts, a vessel for the greenseer and only sees what he is being sent. It seemed like he only saw what he needed to see to get Bran to BR. [edit: he obviously saw other stuff to (today is not the day...), but it was selective is what I meant, he saw stuff relevant to himself and his mission]

Greendreams are another example of how much before their time those Children are, the weir-net, the raven warg-mail, the animal warg-sync and even weir-mms... All wireless to boot.

Back to Melisandre... I think she mentioned that she did not use as much of her powders as she usually had to, but that is probably the most certain evidence she has and it does not prove that the Wall is making her stronger. It could be something else that makes her feel more powerful, the magic growing stronger over all perhaps? And she just happens to be at the Wall and thinks that is why.

Funny you mention the shadowbabies, that is exactly what I thought when I read it. How the heck does she know her babies will be stronger? Is it a hunch she has? We know how that usually goes with Melisandre.

Her visions does not seem to be going well lately, so that is another thing against her magic getting stronger. She sees only snow, and cryptic messages of wolf boys and sculls, very helpful. Just like Quaith...

[Lady of Long Lake]

To back up your theory, we know that the castles were built long after the Wall, except the Nightfort which was the oldest. And also happened to be the castle with the speaking weirwood gate. And the most famous renegade brothers and even a Commander who fought another castle of the NW had their origin here too, besides the Night's King and the other horror stories. Suspicious.

There is a whole thread on the issue of the gate below the Nightfort, and the meaning of saying the vow before the weirwood. To me it seems that the weirwood grants passage if it "recognizes" the man saying the vow, which it only could if the man said the vow before another weirwood.

Very good point about the change of motivation for the Night's Watch.

Yes it seems she is stronger, that is why I put in that little word there :)

That last part about Bloodravens mindeffing her is awesome!

I don't know if this is a translatable saying but where I come from we say "pride goes before fall". So yes, please?

We discussed where Jojens greendreams come from in another thread a while back and my idea was that he is a receiver of sorts, a vessel for the greenseer and only sees what he is being sent. It seemed like he only saw what he needed to see to get Bran to BR. [edit: he obviously saw other stuff to (today is not the day...), but it was selective is what I meant, he saw stuff relevant to himself and his mission]

Greendreams are another example of how much before their time those Children are, the weir-net, the raven warg-mail, the animal warg-sync and even weir-mms... All wireless to boot.

Back to Melisandre... I think she mentioned that she did not use as much of her powders as she usually had to, but that is probably the most certain evidence she has and it does not prove that the Wall is making her stronger. It could be something else that makes her feel more powerful, the magic growing stronger over all perhaps? And she just happens to be at the Wall and thinks that is why.

Funny you mention the shadowbabies, that is exactly what I thought when I read it. How the heck does she know her babies will be stronger? Is it a hunch she has? We know how that usually goes with Melisandre.

Her visions does not seem to be going well lately, so that is another thing against her magic getting stronger. She sees only snow, and cryptic messages of wolf boys and sculls, very helpful. Just like Quaith...

I guessed that as Stannis declined, her babies got stronger because they were taking some of his vitality from him. People constantly notice how fast he is aging and getting more gaunt and pale. Mel tried to make a super baby at the Wall but alas, Jon didn't want her to touch his.....wolf :eek: . Which makes me wonder how on earth she had Stannis's shadow baby?! It seems to happen as a result of a union. I think Stannis would have to be drugged for that to occur.

[Lord Damian]

Remember Sam in ASoS telling Jon that while going through the archives he can find that records only go back to the 400 something lord commander of the night's watch and Jon is the 998th. 8 thousand years of history since the raising of the wall and possibly only the last 4 thousand or so can be accounted for at the wall. I wonder if there is some back up records somewhere in the crypt at winterfell in the ancient part of the fortress that can shed more light on the others, the wall and the nights watch. Then again, Sam is in oldtown..... so perhaps/mayhaps there is info there than can be of some use.

[Black Crow]

Ok, now I'm really confused... In the quoted text above (Old Nan's story) it says 'as cold and death filled the earth' - that's the Long Night, right? Or am I missing something? So, if that is the Long Night, I don't understand why you say (in your last paragraph) that later the First Men dispossessed the CotF who then brought the Long Winter (which is the Long Night)...

Its straightforward enough. What I'm suggesting is that because there's no mention of the Pact or any other interaction with the Children in Old Nan's story the First Men were winning or had even won the war against the Children, but then, as Hotweasel says, the Children unleashed a "weapon of mass destruction" - the Long Winter/Long Night - and this was what forced the previously victorious First Men to the negotiating table and the making of the Pact.

Now, I like Capon Breath's suggestion that the Wall is "an enchanted barrier that holds back a true winter", because that makes a lot of sense in this context, ie: the Children were getting hammered by the First Men so they unleashed the Winter. The Last Hero cries Pax and so they raise up the Wall to hold the worst of that Winter back because even they can't restore the balance they have upset.

There are still questions remaining. I'm not sure about the suggestion that "Winter creatures" (ie: White Walkers and Wights) can't pass through the Wall. I did suggest before that it was like an electric fence, but if it is Winter itself that it blocks then there's no reason why they shouldn't and that would explain why Other and Jafer could be brought through and why Mel hasn't fried. I did suggest at the beginning that the only way through the Wall was by means of the portal under what's now the Nightfort, which will be why that access was limited to true men of the Nights Watch, and why the later gates were driven through the Wall after the Watch changed sides and deposed the Nights King.

Fast forward to the present. Winter is coming again, but the Wall should do its job and hold it back - or at least the worst of it back - but if not, why not? I can see, as I suggested, that if the Last Hero was a Stark, another Stark (Bran?) is necessary to renew the Pact, but where does Azor Ahai fit in, because if the Last Hero was a peacemaker, Azor Ahai is being touted as a mighty warrior and so more likely to break the Pact than renew it.

[Black Crow]

Just an idle thought. If the Children gave the original Watch (the one that was in contact with them before the Nights King business) a hundred dragonglass daggers each year. What did the Watch give in return?

[Silmarien]

These are all very good points, and I struggle with understanding the timeline and the stories.

I too feel like some pact was broken and that led to the Long Night. Problem is we don't know enough of any pacts to know when or why they were made really.

About what made the pact an option for the First Men, there is another aspect that I don't think we have addressed, from what I remember this very moment, the fact that the winning side in the wars between the First Men and the Children are not certain. As well as the Andals would like to portray themselves as victors and perhaps change the truth in their records a bit, so could the First Men. We don't know if the First Men were so invincible as they would have history remember them. Even if it was the Andals who wrote down the stories, the ideas must have come from the First Men.

I have thought about how the First Men could ever defeat the Children, who had greenseers, wargs and a land full of animals and other species to fight for them. Direwolves, mammoths and giants in great numbers are not easily fought on ground. And it is hard to fight someone sitting in a tree shooting arrows, yourself armed with a sword or an axe... Cutting down trees is a method which the First Men adopted but that was more a preventive action than a way to defeat the Children directly.

However, we know the weirwoods have some magical power, and the trees were cut down all over the south forcing the Children to the north of Westeros. What if the balance the Children uphold were connected with the trees? In the trees lingered memories and perhaps spirits of greenseers from thousands of years, taking part in the song for the earth perhaps and in keeping the balance, maybe they also were part of keeping the seasons in order?

So when the First Men cut them down balance was disturbed and the Long Night came.

Now I am going to speculate wildly...The children had perhaps experienced his before, perhaps there had been a different race that lived in Westeros as Tze said, that became White Walkers from wielding the magic of ice, but were defeated by the Children and their weirwoodsmanship before.

I know I am going out far here but bear with me, I have to get these thoughts out of my system!

Perhaps in that winter some First Men became pious and a cult of the "god" of Winter began (similar to the R'hllor cult) and the keeper of that tradition we see in Craster. Whereas other First Men believed in the powers of the Children, sought them out for help, and joined them. So there was a battle of powers between factions of First Men, with the White Walkers on one side, and the Children on the other (as we now see in the Starks).

The ones sacrificing to the forces of Winter were "protected" (like maffia-insurance) from the White Walkers, and the phenomenon generated more White Walkers (like Craster's sons).

The ones on the side of the Children got their abilities (greendreams, wargs, greenseers) from them to help uphold the balance, and they eventually succeeded. That time around...

Now the powers of the Children are dwindling again, they don't even have a greenseer of their own, they had to take on Bloodraven for that task, and now Bran. Maybe it's because of their weakening that winter has come again, and with it the never-dying White Walkers (ice preserves...) that are now slowly building up their army and refilling their ranks.

I have not thought much about the Wood dancers before, but going with GRRM's habit of calling battle or fight "dance" I guess they were fighters (I see ninjas hiding in trees in my mind right now) :ph34r:

I too think there is something more to that saying than just being stubborn and vindictive. It's like a mantra, but it seems they forgot what to remember.

Just like the Starks seem to have forgotten why they must be prepared for winter... Winter is coming... Yeah, sure but what are you going to do about it? Hm, can't seem to remember that part, store more food?

I think this is right, the Wall is supposed to hold back winter itself so that the White Walkers can't pass because they go where the cold goes. It does seem like the wights can pass so probably that is their purpose, to breach the Wall and let winter and therefore the White Walkers through. The magic seems to work rather poorly regarding the wights. That is the confusing part according to me.

I never thought the magic in the Wall held anything back from the south though, not more than a wall usually does in being a great obstacle. That is why I thought the Night's Watch was there (as much as they are keeping an eye out for winter), to prevent people from coming north to the protected lands of the Children and old species.

In the post you quoted I was thinking of how other have said that the Wall keeps R'hllor followers like Melisandre and dragons away too, and I don't think the Wall work that way. What you are saying is much more plausible.

The Children DO have Greenseers. COTF normally have amber eyes. Those with red eyes are greenseers.

We also see the Ghost of High Heart, and it's implied she's a COTF (she has red eyes).

Also, the Starks are not the only wargs. Bloodraven was a Warg, and he was half-Targaryen and half-Blackwood (I believe). The Blackwoods live in the Riverlands, presumably are of Andal descent (we aren't told either way) and worship the Seven. Even the Manderlys have a godswood and they worship the Seven (and are of Andal descent).

[kissdbyfire]

Similarly there's a lot of reaction to Bran in the caves with people treating his embracing of the darkness with the Dark side and horror that he is going to turn evil - granted there are others who vehemently deny it and insist that the Children are cuddly tree-huggers, but the point remains.

Black Crow, I don’t know if there are people out there who think the CotF are cuddly tree-huggers, but I suppose there are. I know I definitely don’t see them as such. But I’d like to try something here that has to do, mostly, with the bolded part quoted above. Same as there are (possibly) people who consider the CotF to be just cuddly tree-huggers, you seem to be absolutely positive that they are not ‘good’. Granted, you allow for the possibility of them not being ‘evil’. Still. Let’s look at it from a different perspective... Say, let’s swap the point of view for a moment.

The fact that they are definitely not cuddly tree-huggers doesn’t make them the ‘enemy’, or the exact opposite of R’hllor, or anything connected to the WW or the ‘dark side’, as in sinister. Not necessarily, anyway. I see the CotF as a way of portraying nature and natural beings in a much more realistic way than we usually see: brutal, and even being perceived as cruel because nature is like that.

Did I make any sense?

[Free Northman]

Black Crow, I don’t know if there are people out there who think the CotF are cuddly tree-huggers, but I suppose there are. I know I definitely don’t see them as such. But I’d like to try something here that has to do, mostly, with the bolded part quoted above. Same as there are (possibly) people who consider the CotF to be just cuddly tree-huggers, you seem to be absolutely positive that they are not ‘good’. Granted, you allow for the possibility of them not being ‘evil’. Still. Let’s look at it from a different perspective... Say, let’s swap the point of view for a moment.

The fact that they are definitely not cuddly tree-huggers doesn’t make them the ‘enemy’, or the exact opposite of R’hllor, or anything connected to the WW or the ‘dark side’, as in sinister. Not necessarily, anyway. I see the CotF as a way of portraying nature and natural beings in a much more realistic way than we usually see: brutal, and even being perceived as cruel because nature is like that.

Did I make any sense?

Perfect! I absolutely agree.

That's what my argument is all about as well. They are weird, and alien and creepy, and may be cannibals and so on. But that just makes them different. It doesn't make them allies of the Others.

Fundamentally, the nature worship of the Children remains diametrically opposed to the destruction of life brought about by the Others.

Leaf was sad that the Giants - their ancient bane and brothers - were dying out. She was sad that the great Lions of the Westerlands were extinct. She was sad that the Unicorns were dwindling, and that the Mammoths are almost gone.

She is sad that the Children are in their long dwindling.

I don't believe this was an act - some false sense of sadness that she brought into her story. I believe that Martin portrayed her true in this scene.

And in this way, I cannot see the Children being part of the Long Night, which has the effect of killing off all life.

[Black Crow]

Its straightforward enough. What I'm suggesting is that because there's no mention of the Pact or any other interaction with the Children in Old Nan's story the First Men were winning or had even won the war against the Children, but then, as Hotweasel says, the Children unleashed a "weapon of mass destruction" - the Long Winter/Long Night - and this was what forced the previously victorious First Men to the negotiating table and the making of the Pact.

Now, I like Capon Breath's suggestion that the Wall is "an enchanted barrier that holds back a true winter", because that makes a lot of sense in this context, ie: the Children were getting hammered by the First Men so they unleashed the Winter. The Last Hero cries Pax and so they raise up the Wall to hold the worst of that Winter back because even they can't restore the balance they have upset.

I'd like to develop this a little further because I don't think the Children are evil either - just opposed to the forces of Light.

If the Last Hero was Brandon Stark and the the Wall was raised up by the Children to stem the Winter after the Pact was signed that would explain why he is known as Bran the Builder. We've then got this business of the Wall holding so long as the Watch is true - which means what? As I said before given that there's been civil war between different factions of the Watch, sticking a knife into the current one hardly counts for much. We're also told though about the gifts of dragonglass. This I suggest goes back to the original Watch drawn from the First Men and ended with the deposition of the Night's King. At the time it didn't matter much because winter had passed. However now the Long Winter is beginning and because the Watch is no longer true to the Children it will not be a barrier to it. This, I suggest is Bran's significance. He hasn't gone up there to learn new and exciting skills, ride dragons etc.; he has been brought up to renew the Pact and secure the Wall, which of course feeds in to the cyclical theory that he might be Bran the Builder come again.

[kissdbyfire]

Perfect! I absolutely agree.

That's what my argument is all about as well. They are weird, and alien and creepy, and may be cannibals and so on. But that just makes them different. It doesn't make them allies of the Others.

Fundamentally, the nature worship of the Children remains diametrically opposed to the destruction of life brought about by the Others.

Leaf was sad that the Giants - their ancient bane and brothers - were dying out. She was sad that the great Lions of the Westerlands were extinct. She was sad that the Unicorns were dwindling, and that the Mammoths are almost gone.

She is sad that the Children are in their long dwindling.

I don't believe this was an act - some false sense of sadness that she brought into her story. I believe that Martin portrayed her true in this scene.

And in this way, I cannot see the Children being part of the Long Night, which has the effect of killing off all life.

Precisely! Here are two bits from ADwD that, to me, illustrate this perfectly:

“Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once.

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, """"" Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill."""""

------

“I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden.”

“I have an uncle Brynden,” Bran said. “He’s my mother’s uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he’s called.”

“Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember.” His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

“Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”

“What will I know?” Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. “What do the trees remember?”

“The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”

-----

These two passages and several others scream 'nature' to me. I think there is a tendency sometimes to see things that aren't necessarily there - I do this myself, and I believe others do it as well. It's similar, in a way, to believing that the series can't have a happy ending - mind you, when I say 'happy ending' I don't mean a fairy tale ending, but rather that I do believe in a... hmmmm... I'll call it a 'positive outcome', at a very high cost. And I do think there might be a message of sorts.

I think this 'message' could be something along the lines of people having to learn to be more tolerant towards one another, more accepting of each other's differences; more respectful and careful in the way they deal with the environment and nature in general. Mind you, I don't know GRRM nor anyone who knows him, and I have no inside knowledge whatsoever. I know all I've said may be just wishful thinking...

:-)

[fassreiter]

I think the Children are an antithesis to actual power, and thus they are more powerful than most humans. Like Bloodraven, who gives up 'power' for 'seeing'. I don't think there is much agency there, other than by dreams. I don't think the Children are the Others or create the wights. The Others are much more like the 'red lot', being destructive and accumulating power as they go, making slaves and worshippers where they go. The Children, on the other hand, probably know that there is power in letting go, and this will more likely be the way to restore some 'balance' between ice and fire than wielding some glowy sword. There is also freedom in death. The Others and the Red Ones try to conquer death, I think they are one and the same in nature. The Children are something else, they embrace death. This might not be too cuddly in our eyes, but I don't believe that it's a coincidence that the free folk could co-exist with the Children, but not with the Others. Melisandre thinks the free folk are doomed to vanish like the Children. She knows nothing. All that free and old folk from beyond the Wall will be more important than her stupid Azor guy. In that I agree with Black Crow. But the Others are not their style. Enslaved and mindless mass armies remind me more of Essos and Asshai. And of Valyria, too.

[hotweaselsoup]

Just an idle thought. If the Children gave the original Watch (the one that was in contact with them before the Nights King business) a hundred dragonglass daggers each year. What did the Watch give in return?

Hmmm, interesting question. Not sure what (if anything) the Watch might give in return, but does it seem like the gift of the dragonglass is more ceremonial than functional? One hundred daggers doesn't seem like much, when you think about it. Maybe the gift is a reminder? Something like: remember the Long Night, remember that it was only through our help that you were able to throw back the White Walkers, remember your vow. The number - one hundred - seems important somehow, as well.

[lojzelote]

The Children DO have Greenseers. COTF normally have amber eyes. Those with red eyes are greenseers.

We also see the Ghost of High Heart, and it's implied she's a COTF (she has red eyes).

Also, the Starks are not the only wargs. Bloodraven was a Warg, and he was half-Targaryen and half-Blackwood (I believe). The Blackwoods live in the Riverlands, presumably are of Andal descent (we aren't told either way) and worship the Seven. Even the Manderlys have a godswood and they worship the Seven (and are of Andal descent).

I´m too close-minded to enrich this very thought-provoking discussion, but i believe that you have mistaken Blackwoods for Brackens. Black woods are of First Men ancestry and in their arms are ravens and weirwood tree. Bloodraven is ińdeed half-Targ and half-Blackwood. Half-Targ and half-Bracken was Bittersteel.

[hotweaselsoup]

I think the Children are an antithesis to actual power, and thus they are more powerful than most humans. Like Bloodraven, who gives up 'power' for 'seeing'. I don't think there is much agency there, other than by dreams. I don't think the Children are the Others or create the wights. The Others are much more like the 'red lot', being destructive and accumulating power as they go, making slaves and worshippers where they go. The Children, on the other hand, probably know that there is power in letting go, and this will more likely be the way to restore some 'balance' between ice and fire than wielding some glowy sword. There is also freedom in death. The Others and the Red Ones try to conquer death, I think they are one and the same in nature. The Children are something else, they embrace death. This might not be too cuddly in our eyes, but I don't believe that it's a coincidence that the free folk could co-exist with the Children, but not with the Others. Melisandre thinks the free folk are doomed to vanish like the Children. She knows nothing. All that free and old folk from beyond the Wall will be more important than her stupid Azor guy. In that I agree with Black Crow. But the Others are not their style. Enslaved and mindless mass armies remind me more of Essos and Asshai. And of Valyria, too.

I dunno - Bloodraven hooked up to the weirwood tree is having his life prolonged "unnaturally", and Hodor/Bran sees other greenseers in another chamber hooked up to other trees in the same way. I can't help but be reminded of the ancients in the House of the Undying, so it's hard for me to think of the Children as some sort of race that is outside or above the "fray", if you will.

I agree that the fire magic of R'hllor and the ice magic of the Others are flip sides of the same coin - but I also think that the Starks warging their wolves is not so different to what is going on between the Targaryens and their dragons, and indeed the Children flowing into and becoming their weirwoods. It all feels like the same kind of transmutative magic, in a way. And the weirwoods need blood sacrifice as well. Exsanguination by scythe may be less cruel than a slow roasting by fire, but blood is blood.