Sandor Clegane v. 11

[only me]

Sandor is an interesting character. In the real life I wouldn't want that such a man appear in my environment, but in a fiction his complexity is interesting.

I have developped it at an earlier thread, I think his popularity comes more or less from his age. Most of the characters in the story are either too young (Robb, Thean, Jon, Young Griff etc.), either too old (Ser Barristan), either too creepy (Bastard Bolton), or die too early (Red Viper, Kal Drogo) just to mention some exemplair. So, the man in adult age, in more or less healthy body, and in more or less acceptabe morality are far too few: Jaime or Sandor. Actually I cannot mention more male character. so this can be an explanation.

And finally, for me, I have to admit, it was the name. Sandor is a quite popular name in my country and I feel him as a compatriote, so I simply cannot believe he is such a terrible man, no he cannot be

At first I was also drawn to the name. but it is not common in my country.

[1234567]

ICE CROW welcome back!

You certainly made some great points there. I'd just like to add that Sandor is one of the most talked about characters in the books as well. Even in AFFC and ADWD, his name just keeps popping up in other characters' POVs. There has been a lot of talk about too many characters being brought back from the dead, however I think Sandor's case is different. What happened to him was left open in ASOS and then his death was confirmed in the same chapter of AFFC where there were a couple of major hints he was alive.

Also I was thinking about this after a post earlier today and the EB now reminds me so much of Cadfael that I keep seeing Derek Jacobi when I think of EB!

[den_lange_sommer_31]

It is a long and arduous journey to be called one of the Sisterhood, all are welcome men and women alike, but the name Sisterhood just fits best.

You must first bring us tears of a Dire Wolf pup, Shave the heads of at least 3 Lannisters, run through the streets wearing nothing but a Hound Head Helmet, Bring us the severed hand of a southern high lord preferably a Lannister :), Flay a Bolton and bring back the proof. And finally you must have a Battle Royale with a senior member of the Sisterhood, For your Battle you must survive 5 minutes with Headtrip_Honey. Do all these things and you have earned the right to joint the Sisterhood.

I may have a Brienne of Tarth issue if Jaime is included in the Lannister bunch... i shall start working on all the others, along with flaying a Bolton, i'll add a Frey & Greyjoy as well. ;)

[Call me Odie]

I think that those of us who appreciate the Hound can relate to him in one way or the other, or we know a Hound and knows that there is a soft little boy under all that hard and scard surface. We know that a Hound is worth a second chance.

[Flightless bird]

In a GOT Sansa walks back to the castle with Sandor and he forces her to look at his face.

Quote...... The left side of his face was a ruin, his ear had been burnt away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar......

but in ASOS, he lost the ear fighting Tickler and Polliver??????

Did GRRM make a mistake? or have I misread?

He really is an intriguing character, definitely my favourite..... his character holds more mystery behind it than any of the others

[brashcandy]

God, don't tell me he's lost both ears now :( What is it with GRRM and facial disfiguration

[Woman of War]

We like Sandor because he's cynical, he's blunt, he's harsh, he's funny, he's emotional at the strangest times, he has an awful life story but he isn't prone to self-pity, he doesn't use people, he's honest and I could go on but I think I'll stop there.

i absolutely agree with your points about Sandor. Atthough he would be even more interesting as a character if he were a bit more cunningly clever.

To respond to Woman of War's questions on why we may not necessarily see the other characters in the same kind of "erotic" light as Sandor, well, I think it all boils down to his interaction with Sansa. Honestly I challenge any poster to give me another relationship that has such erotic and romantic undertones as the one they share. Sure it may be creepy for some, and by its very nature it is inappropriate, illicit and twisted, but therein lies the massive appeal. I didn't think of Sandor in those terms until he started "surprising" Sansa on her way back to her room and telling her stories of his life. Yes, yes, I know she's 12! but as I said before I blame GRRM and keep it moving

this is honest and we are free to have " inappropriate" fantasies and to find them appealing. But if we share them there might be people who find them creepy. Of course phantasies don't rape a child , excuse my drastic point. And there are no other romantic relationships because in this world is no place left for women to be romantic, no wonder the only romantic sexual relationship is between two men. A wonderful love between a man and a woman is so far nowhere in sight.

I crush on Jon too, but he's too young to really fantazise about without feeling pervy, and Jaime's obsession with Cersei just kills any erotic vibe for me. (Tyrion ) I guess it boils down to personal perference, but overall, it is very difficult to talk about Sandor without talking about Sansa, and vice versa - which has the effect of making them the great love story of the series.

yes, you can't discuss one character without being involved in debates about the other you never wanted to post about. This counts as well for other characters is touch with Sansa: you are permanently forced to justify yourself for trying to discuss them, see Tyrion, omigod, there is more to talk about that character than that failed marriage but don't dare mentioning in every second sentence about him "and btw he is a misogynist and sexually disturbed". He is but someone who fancies little girls is no better. And we don't know if Sandor treats his prostitutes any better than Tyrion does, we simply have no information. And I, being politically active against torture and child abuse have no need to justify myself for disliking adult sexual fantasies about children. I don't blame the fictional character Sandor because he is free to fancy whomever he likes as long as he does not get active, as everybody in RL is free in his fantasies, but Sandor only stopped short before.

Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly ok if a writer writes about ugly things. And I like well written graphic sex scenes that are part of the story, even if they are disturbing, this is no children's book. Given the timesetting girls and boys were seen sexually "mature" and abused as children and it is pointless to criticize characters if they behave according to norms and moralities of their world. But there is no need for us to take over and internalize those values. We read about rape and murder because it's part of that fascinating story, and we might fantasize about baking our boss into pies, we might enjoy it but we still know the thought is ugly in RL.

I see this thread is special and for a closed community, many posters in these forums might better stay away from it - so be it. Ok, good bye, I will leave you alone and read about Sandor in other threads.

[Lemon Cake]

Well, just to say, I personally don't want them to be fucking right now. Sansa shouldn't be doing that with any person, even if they were her age. She's 13, edging on 14 IIRC.

I absolutely agree. I ship SanSan, but in the sense that I expect it to happen in future books much farther down the road, when Sansa has aged up a bit. If GRRM has them fuck when Sansa is still only 13, I will throw my book across the room. But then, he had Dany and Drogo fuck when she was only 13, so... oh god he might actually do it which means I better start exercising my throwing arm. :stillsick:

Anyway, I thought of another reason why Sandor appeals to me as a character: He is one of very (very, very, very) few characters in these books who has never pretended to be anything other than exactly what he is. That's not to say he doesn't have ~surprising depths~ and ~hidden layers~, but he never puts on a facade. I find it refreshing to read about a character that I know is not trying to play any games, is not trying to trick anyone or use subterfuge. Even when he's being harsh and rude and awful, there's something oddly comforting in knowing that whatever he's saying is something he truly believes, that he's not trying to lie to anyone. On a shippy sidenote, I think that's where a lot of his appeal for Sansa lies as well; in ASoS, when she was trying to figure out what to do about the Tyrells' invitation to dinner, she explicitly wished the Hound was there. Why? Not because she needed to be physically protected, but because she knew that he, of all the people in King's Landing, would give her the most honest advice. She might not have liked what he would say, but she at least knew that it would be the unvarnished truth and that she could trust it, and that he wouldn't try to mess her around or play her false.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't crush on Sandor at all. Nah, the characters I tend to crush on are the decent, honorable ones like Ned, Davos, and Garlan Tyrell (I will stubbornly continue believing that Garlan is kind and honorable until GRRM crushes my soul explicitly tells us otherwise). Even Jon, when he's not being too tiresomely emo (the HBO version of Jon, that is, since book Jon is way too young) can be pretty crush-worthy to me at times. But damn, even if I don't crush on him, Sandor Clegane fascinates me.

[brashcandy]

Ok, bye, woman of war, I hope you came to some clarity.

P.S. This is most definitely not a closed community, we are welcoming of all Sandor fans and even those who don't like him. The thread however has taken on an easy going, friendly vibe (arguing over 11 threads would be sooo tiresome) that we naturally seem to cultivate via the great affection and fascination for Sandor.

[headtrip_honey]

In a GOT Sansa walks back to the castle with Sandor and he forces her to look at his face.

Quote...... The left side of his face was a ruin, his ear had been burnt away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar......

but in ASOS, he lost the ear fighting Tickler and Polliver??????

Did GRRM make a mistake? or have I misread?

He really is an intriguing character, definitely my favourite..... his character holds more mystery behind it than any of the others

It's been chalked up to either a mistake or Sansa being overdramatic when describing his features.

Arya says that he loses the nub of the ear he has left, whereas Sansa says that that same ear is nothing more than a hole. Either Sansa was too freaked out to see it correctly, or GRRM flubbed it.

[den_lange_sommer_31]

concerning the ear, i thought it was the earlobe or bit of ear that was still left on his burned side of the face.. i could be wrong, or it could just be GRRM added the earlobe just so the right side wouldn't be messed up as well.. i hope it wasn't the right ear.

[brashcandy]

@Lemoncake - based on my privileged access into Martin's head (yes, be jealous bitches :P ), they'll only kiss in TWOW. The bedroom stuff will be in ADOS - when Sansa should be 15 very near to 16 if not already.

[Lemon Cake]

@Lemoncake - based on my privileged access into Martin's head (yes, be jealous bitches :P ), they'll only kiss in TWOW. The bedroom stuff will be in ADOS - when Sansa should be 15 very near to 16 if not already.

Woohoo! :lol: I hope it's not an all-access pass you have into his head, though, because I wouldn't want to visit the part of his brain that came up with "Myrish swamp" and "fat pink mast." :P

[headtrip_honey]

@Lemoncake - based on my privileged access into Martin's head (yes, be jealous bitches :P ), they'll only kiss in TWOW. The bedroom stuff will be in ADOS - when Sansa should be 15 very near to 16 if not already.

I kinda don't want ANY bedroom stuff. I want a kiss, and a recognition of where they both stand, with hints of a happy future. (if we're talking happy endings here, which I doubt they'll have)

I do NOT want GRRM's detailed analysis of Sansa's first time or the agonizingly horrific detail with which he'd go over every single scar on Sandor's body. Yick. No thanks.

[1234567]

Also there is the unreliable POV angle. Sansa saying he has no ear does not make it so.

Although she has gone from the thread, to reply to Woman of War's point, the difference is almost all of us thinks a San/San relationship could only happen when she was older. Even with the BBW* scene aside, Tyrion is the one who sexually groped her and came the closest to raping her. He also kept thinking that the part of him that wanted her most was his...well...little Tyrion. Sandor seemed more interested in getting a song.

*I don't think he went there to rape her, but to take her away from KL. However the scene got rapey in tone.

[brashcandy]

I kinda don't want ANY bedroom stuff. I want a kiss, and a recognition of where they both stand, with hints of a happy future. (if we're talking happy endings here, which I doubt they'll have)

I do NOT want GRRM's detailed analysis of Sansa's first time or the agonizingly horrific detail with which he'd go over every single scar on Sandor's body. Yick. No thanks.

If he does write a sex scene between the two I think he would be extremely subtle and sensitive in his descriptions. He's been that way with their relationship so far, so I doubt we'll have reason to fear.

The reality is too that her first time may not be with him at all. It could very well be Harry the heir, or Aegon.

[little_horn]

Also there is the unreliable POV angle. Sansa saying he has no ear does not make it so.

his nub got chopped in Arya's chapter didn't it??

[Hound's She-wolf]

I kinda don't want ANY bedroom stuff. I want a kiss, and a recognition of where they both stand, with hints of a happy future. (if we're talking happy endings here, which I doubt they'll have)

I do NOT want GRRM's detailed analysis of Sansa's first time or the agonizingly horrific detail with which he'd go over every single scar on Sandor's body. Yick. No thanks.

Although I wouldn't mind more descriptions of Sandor's muscular body, I don't want any bedroom stuff written by GRRM. Just hints and innuendoes.

[headtrip_honey]

his nub got chopped in Arya's chapter didn't it??

Yes, which is after Sansa describes his ear as just a "hole" in AGoT, hence the discrepancy.

[1234567]

I think GRRM handled Jon and Ygritte very well. So hopefully if it's there it will be fine, or it could go like Dany and Drogo and fade to black.

Fade to Blackkkkk.....GRRM this is your fan base.......fade to blackkkkk..........