Viserys Targaryen, opinions

[ShadowRaven]

I don't think its an easy thing to live in Excile, constantly moving from city to city knowing that your family was one of the most powerful in the seven kingdoms, that it held the Iron Throne for over 200 years, and that now, the man who usurped the throne is a fat, drunken fool who goes whoring women about!!! I think if I was Visery's, I would go mad knowing that!!!

Yet, even though his actions were seen as disgusting and unspeakable! Through a dark, twisted view point, it could be seen that he was trying to do some good for Dany, to get them home, to retake the throne, etc.....

If anyone like me felt some element of pity for him, I know where your coming from! Tis just one of the few things that makes him seem more human, rather than a monster!

Exactly.

[Arkash]

Same here !

[Slurms McKenzie]

Hmm Viserys....hard to judge methinks....orphaned as a child, very traumatic, had a baby to look after in a strange foreign land, couldn't speak the language....his knight-protector died soon after, he was in mortal fear for his and his sister's life, had to keep moving, he was broke, sold his mother's possessions.....always painfully aware he was robbed of his inheritance, by the same people that were responsible for his family's death...

Personally, I don't like his villainisation or depictions as a monster, he actions towards the end of his life were deplorable, but he certainly wasn't a monster as such. It's important to note just how young the bloke was, he was a teenager for pete's sake when he found himself having to look after a baby, keep himself and her alive in a strange and foreign land, that he knew nothing about, when he had been used to having everything done for him and to start with probably couldn't look after himself and had little idea how the world worked.

And importantly, through this he had no support system, the lad had no friends, nobody he could confide in, nobody that actually cared for him. Furthermore, he was riduculed everywhere he went, which frankly amounts to bullying on a big scale, and everyone knows what sort of effect that can have on a teenager, deeply concerned about how people perceive him. It's bound to have an effect. There's little wonder why he was so pissed off and miserable and strange...he also didn't appear to have much of a love life, I know thats a weird thing to say, but at his age and the stressful life he led it would matter a lot.

I know a lot is made of him being his father's son, and becoming insane at the end, but frankly anyone should have suffered some form of a nervous breakdown by that stage, regardless of a family history of mental illness. And in fairness, he seemed to be pretty resilient, there's an awful lot of Viserys' resiliance in Dany. But yet, Dany has had far more luck than Viserys ever did, yet she seems to be going mad anyway, so perhaps Viserys wasn't all that meak.

The bloke had a bad life, but despite that he still did some good with it, and thats more than what some people do, he raised Dany successfully after all. I know people will ridicule me, stating the way he treated Dany at the end, but he did raise her, and she turned out alright, better than he did anyway, so he must have done a few things right along the way. Hell, he was responsible for getting her married to Khal Drogo, she seemed happy with that, finding Jorah Mormont, all these things helped Dany through a difficult part of her life. Viserys had no such help. Yet I still hold that he had made some good use of his life, despite everything that was thrown at him, and for that I tip my bonnet to him.

He was a miserable, depressed bloke at the end, but give him some credit, he did some good.

[Silmarien]

Seriously? The Targs were inbred asshats. They took over the Seven Kingdoms by conquest (otherwise known as usurping, making their last scions raging hypocrites as well) and kept the "peace" by crispy-frying any dissidents. There is a reason that rebellion against them succeeded in the end - people were fed up enough with their madness that they backed a noble against them.

Just curious, what are you basing this on? I remember absolutely no fond remembrances or expressions of love for anyone but himself from Viserys.

Willem Darry got Viserys and Dany out of Dragonstone and protected them in Braavos, not Viserys, until Darry died.

OMG what hesitation? He had her dressed and jeweled and perfumed and instructed her on how to stand to make her boobs look bigger, he was so determined to get her traded off to Drogo.

He was going to rape her. End of story.

Yes, this is how lots of people express their love for another person. In fact, I am surprised men don't use this line on women more often, it is so sane and charming and reasonable.

Yeah, what was wrong with her, anyway? All he wanted to do was smack her around, pinch her nipples, call her a slut and a whore for participating in the marriage he sold her into, beat her slaves, and threaten her life and her child's. Why on EARTH was she so utterly ungrateful?

Viserys was never going to be king of anything. Even discounting completely that he was a vicious, incompetant jerk, the Dothraki would never have followed him as far as the nearest port, much less across the sea. If they had, they would have been slaughtered by the first actual resistance they met.

What would you expect Dany to do? Defy and argue with her husband in front of several hundred highly ranked Dothraki men (thereby shaming and embarrassing him), so she could be killed on the spot as well? This is not Will Rogers she is married to, it is Drogo. He was not going to allow this insult to go unpunished, and getting in the way would only have ensured she shared Viserys' fate.

He was never crowned or acknowledged king of anything but carts.

I am not sure what the intent of this post was. Was it just to present him the way he likely told himself he was, delusional lies and all? Or do you really believe this?

Um, damn. Harsh.

Not all Targaryens were insane. In fact, Aerys II is the only reigning King whose madness manifested in burning people alive. (Aerion was a jerk, but he didn't burn people; he drank wildfire thinking he'd turn into a dragon).

There were several good Targ Kings that were noted. Jaehaerys the Conciliator. Aegon V. Aegon IV. We just don't have a lot of information on earlier Kings.

They reigned for 300 years. That's quite a dynasty - look at England. There are no dynasties in recent history that reigned that long (since War of the Roses). Sure, there are dynasties that reigned for thousands of years, but mostly in the East.

What's so horrible about Aemon Targaryen? Rhaegar (crown prince?)? Sure, they had Maegor the Cruel, but any monarchy is gonna have bad rulers. Hell, every democracy has crappy rulers in their history (even mad, cruel ones!).

What's with the Targ hate?

ETA: Re Viserys - yeah he treated Dany cruelly and was an asshole much of the time. But I feel bad for the guy. He had a pitiable childhood. His family was killed when he was 8 years old. They lived with Willam Darry for maybe 5-6 years? Then everything was thrust onto poor Viserys' shoulder's to raise a young sister, and take care of himself. Since his father was murdered by a member of his own KG, and his brother's kids were brutally murdered by the Lannisters, I don't think his paranoia was unwarranted. It grew to epic proportions, but this kid had been hearing his father's delusions of grandeur his whole life until he was killed. To be a prince, and then a beggar, is humiliating.

I think his asshole behavior and posturing were classic defense mechanisms, to deal with how far he had fallen. Would a kinder, stronger, less egotistic person have handled exile better? Of course! But he was who he was. And it's a good thing he never reigned!

Perhaps, if things had been different, and he'd had more levelheaded parents who showed affection toward each other, and if he hadn't been a spoiled little princeling, he would have been a decent king.

Viserys had a difficult life. That doesn't mean I think his behavior is acceptable, or that he shouldn't have been put in his place. But dying like that was pitiable, even if necessary.

ETA2: BTW, Kings in exile do still count, even if they don't rule. And I don't think it's a bad thing that Dany still recognizes that he kept her safe and alive for 13 years when he could have ditched her at any moment and looked out for number one, and honors that by naming a dragon after him.

[thetitansbastard]

Of all the adjectives used to describe Viserys in this thread, incompetent is by far the most important. Impatient would be another good one. If he wasn't grossly incompetent and impatient, I think he could have sat the Iron Throne. He pretty much ruined the whole plan himself.

Sympathy for him "losing everything" when none of it was earned? Bugger that.

[Awakened Edna]

While it is known, and true, that no one deserves to die as Viserys did, he pretty much made his own fate. If he had displayed half of his little sister's pluck in observing the Dothraki and trying to embrace their culture; if he had tried to understand the Dothraki and behave in a way that earned their respect rather than their contempt, and if he had not held a knife to his sister and threatened to cut out her unborn child, then he would have lived. I don't think he was mad at all; just insecure and arrogant.

I don't think failure to acculturate was Viserys's fatal flaw, but I do think it is a theme in the book. Dany's success (or ultimate failure, but I hope not) has depended on her ability to negotiate multiple cultures. Sometimes she does a better job than others. Viserys didn't try, and he died for it.

Theon struggled with this, too. He did not fully adopt Stark values. When he tried to return to the Ironborn, he was too far removed from them, but still wasn't a Stark. He needed to mediate between the two better or choose one.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I guess I could excuse his paranoia, rudeness, ignorance, incompetence, and generally sucky attitude, if it had not been for the way he took it all out on Dany all her life. I am generally no big Dany fan, but for the people feeling so sorry for Viserys because he lost everything and had this small child to look after ...what about the horrible way he treated that small child? Blaming her openly for their mother's death, making her live in constant fear of "waking the dragon," being hit and demeaned all her life? It's not like he just suddenly started that behavior as of GOT, he had been treating her like that for years. Kind of takes away from the whole "well at least he cared for his sister" thing. If cared for means her being clothed and fed, then yes, he made sure the people who took him in also took her in, and they did that for both of them. But "cared for" in any other context is pretty much nil.

I understand why Viserys chose to react to his situations the way he did, but those reactions were his choices, as Dany's opposite choices show. What if she had acted toward Drogo the way Viserys acted toward the Dothraki? Slapped him and refused to be touched because she was "blood of the dragon" and too good for this barbarian? They both would have been dead instantly. As it was, at that point Viserys was riding DANY'S coattails, dependent on the goodwill she inspired among her new people for the food he ate, the horse he rode, everything. And Dany still tried to treat him with respect and dignity, despite all his abuse, until it finally occurred to her that she did not have to take it anymore. The scene where she knocks him sideways and he gets his horse taken away should have been a warning to any half rational person that it was time to take note of the new order, and adjust his behavior accordingly. Instead he just got worse.

As I said, I can understand and even maybe excuse the arrogance, the anger, the sense of outrage at the way his life was going; but I cannot extend that to cover beating, pinching, insulting, degrading, and ultimately intending to rape the only person who has ever shown you any love or respect. If Viserys was so hungry for approval and a companion/friend and respect and loyalty, he had only to look to his side at the little sister who had given all of those unquestioningly all her life. Instead he took everything she tried to give him and spat on it, and I believe he would have been that way all his life, had he lived. If Drogo had given him his "army," he would have insulted and spat on that as not good enough. If he had reached Westeros and won the loyalty of any Targ supporters based on his name, he would have sneered down his nose at them too. And if by some miracle he had been crowned king - it does not even bear thinking about, the atrocities he would have visited upon the kingdom. It would have made Aerys' reign look like a Golden Age in comparison.

[Serie]

As I said, I can understand and even maybe excuse the arrogance, the anger, the sense of outrage at the way his life was going; but I cannot extend that to cover beating, pinching, insulting, degrading, and ultimately intending to rape the only person who has ever shown you any love or respect.

exactly that.

What kind of person terrifies a little girl? Let alone that Dany was family. So he had a bad childhood. Well to me, a person who has suffered as a kid should know better.

[Awakened Edna]

I don't think we are supposed to excuse him at all. I think we can look to see what makes him bad and in what ways he is bad. You know that wisdom or research that says kids who abuse animals grow up to be psycho criminals (overstatated a bit, but you know what I mean). I think this is kind of the same thing. He's extreme and a little be charicatured, but the point seems to be that people who go on power trips with their younger siblings will be nasty in other ways, too.

[Serie]

I don't think we are supposed to excuse him at all. I think we can look to see what makes him bad and in what ways he is bad. You know that wisdom or research that says kids who abuse animals grow up to be psycho criminals (overstatated a bit, but you know what I mean). I think this is kind of the same thing. He's extreme and a little be charicatured, but the point seems to be that people who go on power trips with their younger siblings will be nasty in other ways, too.

I think that the last part can be true more or less.....

I don't believe that people are born either bad or good so yes, the lack of family or councelling has played an important role as to how Viserys turned out to be. And all the stories of Targs' fame seem to have caused only troubles for him. But I'm not sure these are enough. Maybe Vis inherited some of Aerys' madness after all...

[ServantOnIce]

Glad he died. He would have been a terrible king. The actor who portrayed him brought great life to the role and hit the nail on the head.

[Awakened Edna]

Yeah, I think he inherited some Targ madness. I'm hoping we see Dany grapple with it, too, and win.

[cybroleach]

If he wasn't grossly incompetent and impatient, I think he could have sat the Iron Throne. He pretty much ruined the whole plan himself.

No, Vis was right to be suspicious the plan was to betray him all along in favour of Aegon. Even Dany plots against him dreaming of her son usurping his throne. Hell had he lived Dany would have lost his army as she lost it for her son.

He was a desperate man backed into a desperate position. His allies laughed at him and plotted against him. His one subject Dany had him beaten and shamed then finally killed when he tried to stand up for himself.

[Silmarien]

No, Vis was right to be suspicious the plan was to betray him all along in favour of Aegon. Even Dany plots against him dreaming of her son usurping his throne. Hell had he lived Dany would have lost his army as she lost it for her son.

He was a desperate man backed into a desperate position. His allies laughed at him and plotted against him. His one subject Dany had him beaten and shamed then finally killed when he tried to stand up for himself.

Well, drunkenly threatening to kill your sister and her unborn child (which is exactly what a C-section would have done in those times) in front of her very powerful Khal husband and a bunch of his friends isn't really the best way to stand up for yourself....

[thetitansbastard]

No, Vis was right to be suspicious the plan was to betray him all along in favour of Aegon. Even Dany plots against him dreaming of her son usurping his throne. Hell had he lived Dany would have lost his army as she lost it for her son.

He was a desperate man backed into a desperate position. His allies laughed at him and plotted against him. His one subject Dany had him beaten and shamed then finally killed when he tried to stand up for himself.

I don't think that was the plan all along if you believe Arianne Martell was promised to Viserys. Either way his allies had reason to conspire against him due to his incompetence.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I really never saw that scene as Viserys "standing up for himself.". All I saw was a drunken bully who thought his royal blood would protect him no matter what he did (kind of a weird juxtaposition to his constant terror of assassins) trying to bully people into giving him his way on his schedule. He would have had no need to stand up for himself if his own lousy behavior had not brought him so low in the Dothrakis' estimation in the first place. He made himself the Cart King through his own misbehavior and then did not even have the sense to know it.

[mediocre cheese]

Sympathy for him "losing everything" when none of it was earned? Bugger that.

Well you can extend this to practically every character in the book. Any feudal system is entirely full of unearned privilege. No current stark earned winterfell, but one can still be sympathetic toward bran and co. that they had to flee their home, even if their home wasn't earned. I also feel sympathy for viserys, although obviously he didn't earn a right to be crown prince.

[Catastrophe]

Lady of the North: I have no doubt that Viserys was a bad person and would've been a horrible king, worse than Aerys or even Joffrey. That doesn't mean I can't still feel sorry for him. It's good that he never got to rule, but he didn't deserve the fate he got either.

TheTitansBastard: So I suppose you don't feel sorry for Bran, Rickon, or Arya at all? It's not like Viserys just lost his wealth or his titles, he lost everything, his home, his family, his whole life. Maybe it was "unearned" but he was a child at the time, he never really had a chance to earn anything or make his own way in the world. It's not like he was just reduced to being a lesser lord or even a peasant, he was thrown out onto the streets to fend for himself as a beggar. No one deserves that, especially at such a young age.

[CJS 2207]

It is a bit difficult to get a complete picture of Viserys, since his character is etched via Danys POVs. He came across in the pages of aGoT as a paranoid, abusive, naive, and entitled prat. It was quickly apparent that he had no subtlety. A lamentable quality that pretty much took him out of the running rather quickly in the game of thrones.

Of course, I suspect that many of the traits listed above could look a bit different if perhaps we got a chance to peer into the depths of his psyche via POV chapters. Suppose that was the purpose of the OP...

[brashcandy]

Ok, so I'm about to defend Viserys :)

If Drogo had given him his "army," he would have insulted and spat on that as not good enough.

Perhaps, but were the Dothraki deserving of any great thanks? I mean I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, but Drogo and Illyrio benefitted immensely from their deal in Pentos. The Khal got a young nubile girl of the greatest Valyrian bloodline, gifts and money to see them off, and if he had invaded Westeros on behalf of Viserys, their sacking would have brought even more riches. I'm not denying that Viserys would have always been ungrateful, but hey, he was especially desperate after waiting all those years, and enduring insults, scorn and poverty. People seem to naturally sympathise with and understand Quentyn Martell's desperation, but in reality, Viserys had a much more legitimate burden to bear, and this in part explains why he is so impatient. Quentyn could have reasonably gone back home and explained to his father about why Dany couldn't marry him. He must have felt no great personal loss over Elia's death - she was only his aunt, and he probably never knew her. But Viserys was 8 yrs old when his family was ousted. He knew his father was brutally killed and that the stress of having to flee probably contributed to his mother's death. All in all, Viserys more than anyone can be excused for resorting to the kind of desperate acts we see in AGOT. And yes, it is pitiful.

If he had reached Westeros and won the loyalty of any Targ supporters based on his name, he would have sneered down his nose at them too.

What are you basing this on? We have no idea how he would have reacted to having home grown support, but based on his desperation to return home, he probably would have been overjoyed. Maybe it's not in Viserys' character to be very humble, but that doesn't mean that he was so completely arrogant as to not appreciate the loyalty of Targ supporters after Robert's rebellion, and to reward them accordingly. Anyways, do you know who's to blame for all this? Doran Martell. If he had allowed Viserys to know of the arranged marriage, and that Dorne was still backing a Targ restoration, then we might have seen a very different Viserys. Not humble and contrite, but perhaps a bit more cautious, and optimistic. I think what we witness in AGOT is a young man that feels very alone, hanging on to a dream that seems to be fading with every step the Dothraki takes away from the sea, and he begins to lose it. He watches his sister Dany bonding with these people. People that he believes he has bought, and his isolation and sense of hopelessness grows greater.

And if by some miracle he had been crowned king - it does not even bear thinking about, the atrocities he would have visited upon the kingdom. It would have made Aerys' reign look like a Golden Age in comparison.

Again, this may or may not have happened. Based on the Viserys we see in AGOT then yes, perhaps it was more likely than not, but I don't think he was ever a "natural" sadist or madman like Joffrey for example (and even he could turn on the charm when needed). Dany notes in ACOK that Viserys had expected the realm to rise for its rightful ruler, but if he had indeed gone on to conquer Westeros, he would have realised the folly of those beliefs. It would have been a very shocking reality check, but he would have understood quickly enough that his conquest would not be easily won. What could be expected in the aftermath if he had indeed won the war? Well, we can entertain wild speculation of mass atrocities and terror, or we can simply look at what happened with Joffrey. Advisors step in, people quickly switch sides and pledge allegiance, and whilst there may be the off show of power which results in cruelty (Ned's beheading) or the politically dumb move (Barristan Selmy's dismissal), Kings at the end of the day have a kingdom to rule, and a nation that needs to heal and return to prosperity. Basically, Viserys' rule might not have been very extraordinary in terms of atrocities at all. He might have had his own Qyburn and kept it on the down low like Cersei or Tywin. He may have proven himself to be more like Robert and had a whole bunch of bastards and grown fat in his old age. Arianne might have been miserable, but she would have learnt to live with him, or to take a lover discreetly.

Anyways, my point is that it's easy to hate Viserys, but ultimately, he's deserving of the pity and understanding (if not more so) that we extend to many other characters. When we look at the whole affair in hindsight, with the knowledge of the game that Varys and Illyrio were playing all along, and that they never had any intention of helping Viserys get the Iron Throne, his downfall becomes even more pathetic and sorrowful.