Sandor Clegane v. 13

[Candor]

In the GoT scene in which Joffrey forces Sansa to view Ned's head, Joffrey tries to provoke her by saying that The Hound called Robb the "knight (or king) of wooden swords" or something like that... Why do you think that Sandor denied remembering having said that? Do you think he was just trying to be sensitive to Sansa's feelings?

Possibly. Joff's a douche. I think the situation was bad enough he wanted not to make it worse for her, so he denied saying this. He may have felt bad about saying it at all but that's up for interpretation.

[brashcandy]

In the GoT scene in which Joffrey forces Sansa to view Ned's head, Joffrey tries to provoke her by saying that The Hound called Robb the "knight (or king) of wooden swords" or something like that... Why do you think that Sandor denied remembering having said that? Do you think he was just trying to be sensitive to Sansa's feelings?

Yes definitely! Another moment where Sandor shows he is not made purely of jerk. I think Sandor doesn't like to kick people when they're down, but he's not above mocking them either. He certainly says something even more awful later on to Sansa about Ned's twitching body, so I find this earlier show of sensitivity very interesting. Perhaps he was just sick and tired of Joffrey being an ass, and didn't want to add to Sansa's intense suffering in the moment.

[little_horn]

In the GoT scene in which Joffrey forces Sansa to view Ned's head, Joffrey tries to provoke her by saying that The Hound called Robb the "knight (or king) of wooden swords" or something like that... Why do you think that Sandor denied remembering having said that? Do you think he was just trying to be sensitive to Sansa's feelings?

I don't think he really said that, sound like Joffrey just being a dick

[little_horn]

Check out GRRM's site: georgerrmartin.com or find the link in the WOW section on the board.

I was hoping for a Sansa or Brienne/Jaime chapter, but hey, it's still nice to have new material.

I almost called in to work to say I'd be late when I saw the Theon Ch. this morning (5 something am... -_-}

back to Sandor, I may have said this already but, I just made him in my Sims game, and he is way hotter than Sandor has any right to be. (his face isn't burned, and i havent looked to d/l the burns), I keep trying to find a way to edit him, but if I make his jaw any bigger, cheekbones any higher or nose any bigger/hooked, he will stop looking like a person. Maybe he should be bigger, IDK, anyways, he's like my manliest sim, and top 3 hottest male sim. Redonkulous. I swear I did not expect it.

[Candor]

I almost called in to work to say I'd be late when I saw the Theon Ch. this morning (5 something am... -_-}

Don't you just hate having to be a productive member of society? :P

[little_horn]

Only when it gets in the way of GRRM worship ;)

here is something else for you guys, cannot be unseen, http://georgerrmartin.com/life/ have you ever looked at the pics of young GRRM??? LOOOK. Lank black hair parted to the side and longer than the popular length, a big hooked nose, and a heavy jaw. ) 0_0

look at young Parris too

with her light auburn and probably blue eyes.

[The Human Abstract]

I believe Sandor's story has now ended.

And that this ending is a happy one.

..

Though he made immoral decisions and was never heroic, Sandor's tale was one of an abused character steeped in violence. First abused horribly by his family and then by his master. The mistreated dog never saw any other way but to lash out with violence -- the only thing ke knew. There was no other way for him. No path provided. But now there is. He is at peace and his story is complete.

[little_horn]

He may be AWOL but he is not gone for good.

[brashcandy]

Only when it gets in the way of GRRM worship ;)

here is something else for you guys, cannot be unseen, http://georgerrmartin.com/life/ have you ever looked at the pics of young GRRM??? LOOOK. Lank black hair parted to the side and longer than the popular length, a big hooked nose, and a heavy jaw. ) 0_0

Ok, so this is it :) Sandor is going to live long and get the girl!

[Candor]

Only when it gets in the way of GRRM worship ;)

here is something else for you guys, cannot be unseen, http://georgerrmartin.com/life/ have you ever looked at the pics of young GRRM??? LOOOK. Lank black hair parted to the side and longer than the popular length, a big hooked nose, and a heavy jaw. ) 0_0

look at young Parris too

with her light auburn and probably blue eyes.

*mind blown*

IKR! It's like damn it I want to read, mmkay, boss?

[1234567]

Not to be a buzz kill but doesn't GRRM most identify with Tyrion?

[little_horn]

I think he identifies with all the smartasses; but he still put his face into Sandor's description.

[Candor]

Not to be a buzz kill but doesn't GRRM most identify with Tyrion?

He's dragging himself down a deep and dark path if this is true :lol:

[brashcandy]

I think he identifies with all the smartasses; but he still put his face into Sandor's description.

Agreed :) He likes to write for Tyrion, but he clearly has a real affinity for Sandor too.

[littlespider]

Martin's nose is not a hooked nose (though it's rather large). This is a hooked nose:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Portrait_de_Dante.jpg

There's a great pic floating around that gets the nose, the sneer, the hair, and the scars perfectly. I have no idea where I'd find it.

The thing I never understood about the "wooden sword" moment: I have no doubt in my mind that Sandor said that about Robb. No doubt at all. But he's not going to participate in Joff's bullying of Sansa. This impulse appears during Joff's nameday tournament as well, with his bluff about not killing someone on your name day. So, not an asshole, yes? And then, when he's alone with Sansa, the asshole has free reign, and at times he's extremely bullying to her -- physically and verbally. So what's the deal?

[little_horn]

Martin's nose is not a hooked nose (though it's rather large). This is a hooked nose:

http://en.wikipedia....it_de_Dante.jpg

There's a great pic floating around that gets the nose, the sneer, the hair, and the scars perfectly. I have no idea where I'd find it.

The thing I never understood about the "wooden sword" moment: I have no doubt in my mind that Sandor said that about Robb. No doubt at all. But he's not going to participate in Joff's bullying of Sansa. This impulse appears during Joff's nameday tournament as well, with his bluff about not killing someone on your name day. So, not an asshole, yes? And then, when he's alone with Sansa, the asshole has free reign, and at times he's extremely bullying to her -- physically and verbally. So what's the deal?

There's a thread somewhere about ASOIAF art, yeah, I was probably stretching it, but his nose does seem to hook at least a little in the Dubuque pics, though I never pegged him for the type to get a description wrong, he has a huge vocabulary!

As for Sandor's behavior, I think he cares about Sansa, so wants to spare her a beating, but I also think she really does piss him off, I mean, how could she not?? She is a pre-teen, that's IMO the WORST age, so damn annoying... can't stand kids in that age period, even if they were more mature back then.

[1234567]

Okay. On my searches through So Spake Martin, I found this from the 30th of May 2005 (about six months before AFFC was released):

"3. Will we see Sandor again, especially in replacing Sansa's lost wolf?

Yes, we will see Sandor (in the next book I think he said) and Gregor. After that, he said he can't comment on the rest..."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Bretanos_Signing_Kansas_City_MO/

Now does this mean that he is referring to the tales of the Hound (which are reported but not seen) or if this (given the gravedigger scene, is positive confirmation he is alive and kicking. I mean we all believe he is, but does this confirm it?

[brashcandy]

As for Sandor's behavior, I think he cares about Sansa, so wants to spare her a beating, but I also think she really does piss him off, I mean, how could she not?? She is a pre-teen, that's IMO the WORST age, so damn annoying... can't stand kids in that age period, even if they were more mature back then.

I'd agree that she does piss him off, but not so much because she's a pre-teen and therefore annoying. I think we really see the age dynamics with him and Arya, but with Sansa he's caught between seeing her as a girl and a budding woman, and it's making him crazy.

[littlespider]

There's a thread somewhere about ASOIAF art, yeah, it's probably a little stretching it, but his nose does seem to hook at least a little in the Chicago and Dubuque pics.

As for Sandor's behavior, I think he cares about Sansa, so wants to spare her a beating, but I also think she really does piss him off, I mean, how could she not?? She is a pre-teen, that's IMO the WORST age, so damn annoying... can't stand kids in that age period, even if they were more mature back then.

I do have to confess that I have an unnatural obsession with Dante Alighieri's nose...

I get what you're saying -- her idealism and dreaminess really does annoy him, for very deep and personal reasons, because in some ways it cuts right to the quick of exactly what he lost with his upbringing. But it strikes me that he is often at his nastiest when it's just totally uncalled for, like telling her that everybody could die in the upcoming battle, then reminding her of her father's body twitching after his head was cut off. Or calling her stupid, a couple of times. That enraged me. Here is this girl, whose primary coping mechanism while she's a hostage in KL is to keep her head down and basically parrot what everybody else is saying about her treacherous family, and meanwhile Joffrey and Cersei are constantly calling her stupid, and now here's the Hound piling it on as well. Or jerking her roughly to her feet, right after she's been cracked in the side of the head and is bleeding from her ear. Ugh. (Though to his credit, he gave her good advice right after he did that.)

Don't get me wrong, he's still my favorite character. But that vow of silence is a good thing. And a "keep your hands to yourself" vow wouldn't be so bad for him either.

ETA: So I guess what I am trying to say here is not that he is a horrible, horrible person (though based on his words and actions, some readers might reasonably come to this conclusion; I am not one of them), but rather asking, if he's not an intentionally cruel person -- and I don't think he is, I call bluff on the lip service he gives to taking pleasure in dealing out cruelty -- then why the frequent cruelty?

[1234567]

ETA: So I guess what I am trying to say here is not that he is a horrible, horrible person (though based on his words and actions, some readers might reasonably come to this conclusion; I am not one of them), but rather asking, if he's not an intentionally cruel person -- and I don't think he is, I call bluff on the lip service he gives to taking pleasure in dealing out cruelty -- then why the frequent cruelty?

Sandor seems to have the emotional capability of a shy and defensive 15 year old boy, who has been picked on and uncared for and to top it off, has a facial disfigurement in a society that is particularly unkind about ugliness. He seems to lash out at people or turn to humour (spirits of the air, you'll be one Knight the poorer etc) as an automatic reaction. I think he can't cope with people, like Sansa, being kind as he has very little to no experience of anyone being nice to him and has never developed a emotional skill set.

By the way this doesn't excuse the dickish behaviour in my mind, but may provide a reason for it.