Sandor Clegane v. 13

[brashcandy]

For some reason, I envision Sandor resorting to the Free Folk method of courting / obtaining a bride... he steals her from a castle tower, and if she deems him worthy, then she won't kill him in his sleep.

I know :lol: it just seems like something Sandor would do, doesn't it? But as we've seen, it actually isn't. He could have taken Sansa by force, but he chose to ask her to come with him, and then he leaves, albeit in shame and sadness. You know, there are so many things that Sandor seems like he would be capable of doing, but then when it comes down to it, he pretty much chooses the more "honourable" way. Post-Mycah of course.

[littlespider]

I finally found this picture I've been looking for for a bit. This is what our boy is undoubtedly up to currently in his monastery, to recover from a long day of digging graves:

http://www.howitworksdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/monk-drinking.jpg

[1234567]

I finally found this picture I've been looking for for a bit. This is what our boy is undoubtedly up to currently in his monastery, to recover from a long day of digging graves:

http://www.howitwork...nk-drinking.jpg

As long as he hasn't gone for that haircut yet. :D

[littlespider]

As long as he hasn't gone for that haircut yet. :D

Yeah the tonsure is poor. But you have to admit it'd be an improvement over the greasy combover.

Seriously, moral reform, schmoral reform. When you get out of the monastery, dude, cut your frakking hair short.

[voodooqueen126]

For some reason, I envision Sandor resorting to the Free Folk method of courting / obtaining a bride... he steals her from a castle tower, and if she deems him worthy, then she won't kill him in his sleep.

I hope that Sandor is a better person than that.

[Zmeischa]

For some reason, I envision Sandor resorting to the Free Folk method of courting / obtaining a bride... he steals her from a castle tower, and if she deems him worthy, then she won't kill him in his sleep.

I beg to differ. In his heart of hearts he is very romantic (very deep inside). If he heard about this method, he would laugh, and approve, and say that it is honest, and clever, and certainly better than "talk to her father". But he wouldn't do it himself.

What he is trying to do with Sansa is a very modern version of courtship, anyway. If you translate it into human language, of course :).

[1234567]

I think Sandor would want someone to come to him. I don't think the free folk stealing thing would suit him as he would never feel secure in the relationship. He really needs someone to love him without any constraint or force. As botched as it was, his offer to Sansa was exactly that, an offer: she could accept or refuse. He didn't force her to go with him. Which, by the way must have been a kick in the teeth, as essentially it may have boiled down to in Sandor's mind that the abused, terrified girl would rather stay with her tormentors and people who beat her than go with him. Although his given his own actions that night, you can hardly blame her for not going.

[brashcandy]

Although his given his own actions that night, you can hardly blame her for not going.

Yeah, I wonder if that's a small part of why he's so upset when he hears about the marriage to Tyrion. He knows that there was a chance she would have come with him, but that he was the one responsible for botching it so badly. And then we have Sansa feeling a little regret that she didn't go herself.... Did I mention how necessary it is that they meet again, in TWOW?!! :)

[1234567]

Yeah, I wonder if that's a small part of why he's so upset when he hears about the marriage to Tyrion. He knows that there was a chance she would have come with him, but that he was the one responsible for botching it so badly. And then we have Sansa feeling a little regret that she didn't go herself.... Did I mention how necessary it is that they meet again, in TWOW?!! :)

I can imagine Sandor going over and over those events in his head while he was with Arya and you know chopping entire trees into firewood. I suspect he really wishes he had done things differently. Part of me feels that it would be a really pointless story if they do not meet again. I still have to go through all the Arya and Sansa chapters, because I think she thinks of Sandor in someway in every single one of hers and he mentions her in every single one of Ayra's. The two characters have been intrinsically tied together from the death of Lady. Even in the first book tingling bells were set off by the line "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it".

Maybe we are all reading too much into it, but why would GRRM set up this complex relationship if it wasn't going to have a pay off. He set up the Tyrion/Tysha storyline in book 1 too. That ironically didn't require them meeting again but we have now had the fallout and payoff with the death of Tywin. So far there has been no pointless story arc as far as I can see. All the characters have played their part in the narrative and the story arcs are not left hanging.

[littlespider]

Oh they'll meet again, I'm sure of it. He'll walk in while Sansa is banging away with Pod and she'll be like "Ohai! Look here's Pod, my rescuer!" Cue manly tears. trololololo

Seriously though, among other things, he's also clearly thinking about all the times that Sansa was getting viciously beaten by the KG and Sandor didn't step in and help her. It's one of the last things on his mind when he talks to Arya. In his mind he's failed Sansa twice: how pusillanimous he was in protecting her from Joffrey's violence, and how he took the song.

Interesting that y'all are bringing up the wildling abduction rite. Martin, of course, romanticizes bride abduction. In chivalric romance, when a woman is kidnapped or taken forcibly from one place to another she is called rapta. Captured, taken, seized. Same word as rape. And technically, had Sandor taken her away from KL, that's at least how the Lannisters would have seen it. Abduction.

But perhaps he should have just taken her away? In the same way that, when Arya refused his offer of help, he saved her anyway -- forcibly, but he saved her. (I'm not suggesting that he should have kidnapped Sansa -- disaster -- but is he thinking this?) The axe to the back of the head undoubtedly saved Arya's life. He knows this. What he doesn't know is if Sansa is still alive, though he sees her marriage to Tyrion as worse than death.

ps -- no, no, no, I do not think Sandor is at all a romantic deep down inside. This is not Phantom of the Opera.

[voodooqueen126]

Oh they'll meet again, I'm sure of it. He'll walk in while Sansa is banging away with Pod and she'll be like "Ohai! Look here's Pod, my rescuer!" Cue manly tears. trololololo

Seriously though, among other things, he's also clearly thinking about all the times that Sansa was getting viciously beaten by the KG and Sandor didn't step in and help her. It's one of the last things on his mind when he talks to Arya. In his mind he's failed Sansa twice: how pusillanimous he was in protecting her from Joffrey's violence, and how he took the song.

Interesting that y'all are bringing up the wildling abduction rite. Martin, of course, romanticizes bride abduction. In chivalric romance, when a woman is kidnapped or taken forcibly from one place to another she is called rapta. Captured, taken, seized. Same word as rape. And technically, had Sandor taken her away from KL, that's at least how the Lannisters would have seen it. Abduction.

But perhaps he should have just taken her away? In the same way that, when Arya refused his offer of help, he saved her anyway -- forcibly, but he saved her. (I'm not suggesting that he should have kidnapped Sansa -- disaster -- but is he thinking this?) The axe to the back of the head undoubtedly saved Arya's life. He knows this. What he doesn't know is if Sansa is still alive, though he sees her marriage to Tyrion as worse than death.

ps -- no, no, no, I do not think Sandor is at all a romantic deep down inside. This is not Phantom of the Opera.

Yes but wouldn't the Lannisters themselves have been guilty of Rapta since they actually did imprison Sansa and force her to marry Tyrion.

[brashcandy]

ps -- no, no, no, I do not think Sandor is at all a romantic deep down inside. This is not Phantom of the Opera.

I agree that he's not a romantic deep inside :) Far from it in fact, that's why he has so much trouble processing his feelings for Sansa. I think this had a lot to do with the different treatment that each girl receives at that crucial moment. His rescue of Arya had more to do with instinct: "she's going to get herself killed, I need to act." But with Sansa, his emotions are so much more conflicted and tumultous that there's no clear code of action (or ethics).

[Lemon Cake]

I agree that he's not a romantic deep inside :) Far from it in fact, that's why he has so much trouble processing his feelings for Sansa. I think this had a lot to do with the different treatment that each girl receives at that crucial moment. His rescue of Arya had more to do with instinct: "she's going to get herself killed, I need to act." But with Sansa, his emotions are so much more conflicted and tumultous that there's no clear code of action (or ethics).

I agree that the rescue of Arya was very much to do with pure instinct. Unlike Sansa, Arya was in immediate danger of being killed in like the next two minutes; I think if the situation with Sansa had been as urgent, instinct would have kicked in and he probably would have forcibly rescued her, too.

Plus, even though both girls rejected his offer of rescue, I think the fact that he had all these conflicted, inappropriate, mixed up ~feelings where Sansa was concerned meant he took her rejection a lot more personally than he took Arya's. It ~hurt his feelings~ in a way Arya's rejection didn't.

As for Sandor being a romantic... I do think he has a softer side that appreciates beautiful and wondrous things; I blathered in detail about that recently. But I definitely wouldn't go as far as calling him a romantic. Yeah... no. :lol:

[brashcandy]

I agree that the rescue of Arya was very much to do with pure instinct. Unlike Sansa, Arya was in immediate danger of being killed in like the next two minutes; I think if the situation with Sansa had been as urgent, instinct would have kicked in and he probably would have forcibly rescued her, too.

Precisely; we see this happen during the KL riot when he saves her from the mob. And he was a lot more pissed during that incident as well (someone dared to harm the littlebird), along with being a bit boastful to Sansa, and peeved that she didn't rush to thank him.

Plus, even though both girls rejected his offer of rescue, I think the fact that he had all these conflicted, inappropriate, mixed up ~feelings where Sansa was concerned meant he took her rejection a lot more personally than he took Arya's. It ~hurt his feelings~ in a way Arya's rejection didn't.

Yeah, his feelings for Sansa are way more powerful and confusing. He was actually going to kill Sansa that night of the blackwater from sheer fury over her "rejection," but with Arya it was simply a matter of asserting his authority and protecting her from herself.

As for Sandor being a romantic... I do think he has a softer side that appreciates beautiful and wondrous things; I blathered in detail about that recently. But I definitely wouldn't go as far as calling him a romantic. Yeah... no. :lol:

I loved that post Lemoncake :) I can't remember all you said, just the bit about the songs, but it was spot on. It's one of the things that makes Sandor so fascinating.

[1234567]

Indeed. Sandor has the capacity for love and kindness and probably to the extent that he would die for someone he cares about....also he can shed those manly tears....but flowers, Chocolates and a singing Gondolier in Braavos....forget it.

[brashcandy]

Indeed. Sandor has the capacity for love and kindness and probably to the extent that he would die for someone he cares about....also he can shed those manly tears....but flowers, Chocolates and a singing Gondolier in Braavos....forget it.

Bah! Who needs those things anyways! :)

[1234567]

Bah! Who needs those things anyways! :)

:agree: Give me a man who says he'll kill anyone who hurts me over one who hires a boat that smells of sweaty tourist posteriors any day of the week....(although in real life if someone said they'd kill someone for me, I'd probably run far, far away...from them)

[Ednawolf]

I was joking about Sandor employing the Free Folk method of obtaining Sansa. Agreed that he is no swarthy pirate and does have more honor than that. Let's say he did go the honorable route and ask for Sansa's betrothal.... who would he even ask at this point? Who would be responsible for approving Sansa's (read NOT Alayne's) marriage? Uncle Bryndan (assuming he surfaces)? Jon Snow (assuming he's still alive)? Would Sansa herself be able to consent?

[1234567]

I was joking about Sandor employing the Free Folk method of obtaining Sansa. Agreed that he is no swarthy pirate and does have more honor than that. Let's say he did go the honorable route and ask for Sansa's betrothal.... who would he even ask at this point? Who would be responsible for approving Sansa's (read NOT Alayne's) marriage? Uncle Bryndan (assuming he surfaces)? Jon Snow (assuming he's still alive)?

Sansa herself seems like the only likely candidate. However he is so far below her on the social scale that the only way I can see Sandor marrying her is if she stays Alyane. Otherwise they may have to be content with one rather dark haired daughter who can be passed off as Northern looking to Sansa's husband.

[brashcandy]

There's an interesting parallel in the Theon chapter just released from TWOW. Justin Massey wants to marry Asha and mentions that it would be beneficial to Stannis to have the daughter of Pyke married to one of his knights. He speaks of the fact that Asha's marriage was basically a sham and unconsummated. I could see Sandor taking this route, but the problem is that he's a notorious criminal (for Saltpans), and any King is likely to want Sansa for himself, except perhaps Stannis, but he's the King more likely to execute Sandor!

Problems, problems.