R+L=J v.18

[WhiteWolf26]

When you marry your children for alliences instead of letting them choose for love it usually dosen't have a happy ending

I guess im misreading that? Sorry. I thought they were trying to say marrying for alliances doesnt usually have happy endings.

[FanTasy]

To Ned Lyanna said about Robert "he will never keep to one bed".

Would she accept a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar?

Her children not (ETA first, thanks Corbon :cool4: ) in line for the throne, possible alienation from her family and House, being laughed at by the fine folks at court .. that is some tough cookie to swallow.

All for love?

I will re-read all passages that talk about Lyanna and Rhaegar. At the former reads I found it odd that I found no clear references that she ever expressed that she loved Rhaegar. Ned never says this, if I recall correctly. If there are references in the text I missed I hope someone will name them, so I can look it up.

Lyanna accepted the crown of blue roses at Harrenhal. That is stated by different sources.

Well, is this proof that she loves Rhaegar?

Could she refuse being crowned as queen of love and beauty?

That would be an enormous affront to the crown prince of the realm.

According to Ned at her 'bed of blood' she clutched wheatered rose petals.

Proof that she loved Rhaegar?

Possibly, but could this also be out of despair and grief for what happened to her?

It is tempting to think of a great love between Lyanna and Rhaegar, that they both doe-eyed were prepared to give everything up for each other.

I do love a good and romantic love story, even the ones who end sad.

Don't want to rain on anyones parade ... sorry ... but I would leave some room for doubt that this is what happened

[Ghost714]

To Ned Lyanna said about Robert "he will never keep to one bed".

Would she accept a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar?

Her children not in line for the throne, possible alienation from her family and House, being laughed at by the fine folks at court .. that is some tough cookie to swallow.

All for love?

I will re-read all passages that talk about Lyanna and Rhaegar. At the former reads I found it odd that I found no clear references that she ever expressed that she loved Rhaegar. Ned never says this, if I recall correctly. If there are references in the text I missed I hope someone will name them, so I can look it up.

Lyanna accepted the crown of blue roses at Harrenhal. That is stated by different sources.

Well, is this proof that she loves Rhaegar?

Could she refuse being crowned as queen of love and beauty?

That would be an enormous affront to the crown prince of the realm.

According to Ned at her 'bed of blood' she clutched wheatered rose petals.

Proof that she loved Rhaegar?

Possibly, but could this also be out of despair and grief for what happened to her?

It is tempting to think of a great love between Lyanna and Rhaegar, that they both doe-eyed were prepared to give everything up for each other.

I do love a good and romantic love story, even the ones who end sad.

Don't want to rain on anyones parade ... sorry ... but I would leave some room for doubt that this is what happened

For the most part we are told that it was not consensual. We are told that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna. It's only through subtle clues that we can believe that there was love from both partys for each other. I just think it would be dumb, if we are told it wasn't consensual, then we get clues that it was, only to turn out that it was exactly how Robert said it was. I just don't really think that's the case

[corbon]

To Ned Lyanna said about Robert "he will never keep to one bed". Would she accept a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar? Her children not in line for the throne,

Sure they are. Just not first in line. If she has a son, that son is one single death (Aegon) away from the direct line to the throne.

Don't want to rain on anyones parade ... sorry ... but I would leave some room for doubt that this is what happened

Sure there is room for doubt. Nothing is proven here, just probable.

Edit: Oh, and you missed out crying at Rhaegar's sad song, then thumping her little brother when he teased her about it.

[Alia of the knife]

But why should she become #2? Elia couldn't give birth one more time, so there is no need to sleep with her. I think Rhaegar liked Elia, they respected each other, so he would have treated her according to that. But she was weak, maybe dying slowly - we don't know that. A woman in her place would like to spend as much time with her children as possible. Rhaegar is not directly needed for that. Lyanna can have him alone. And when Elia dies, Lyanna becomes the only wife.

This to me would be the most likely scenario, or outcome.

[Alia of the knife]

Actually there is something in the text that points to her being ok with polygamy. If you think the heir to the Targaryen throne is at the Tower, as strongly supported by the actions of the Kingsguard trio, then it really comes down to either Aegon or a legitimate Jon being there (or both.) A legitimate Jon is only possible through a polygamous marriage as there is absolutely nothing to show Elia is set aside, or even that Rhaegar had the power to do so if he wanted to. Aerys called the shots in this regard, not Rhaegar and there is nothing to show he would have even considered it. In fact, the whole Aegon/Young Griff scenario points to Aegon still being the first in line to the throne after Rhaegar - i.e. his mother and his claim was in fact not set aside. Which means, if the Kingsguard was there guarding a legitimate Jon as heir to the throne, then either Lyanna was ok with a polygamous marriage or she was forced into one. Her actions on her death bed (holding onto her winter roses as she dies) point to her not being forced.

I would point out that the idea of polygamy does not necessarily include Lyanna sharing her new husband with Elia. It is entirely possible that Rhaegar and Elia and Lyanna all viewed that part of marriage as over. It was an arranged marriage and there was no need for Elia and Rhaegar to ever share a bed again for their children to continue as heir to the throne. Her prestige, if that was of concern to her, is secured by her relation to her children - meaning as the future Queen Mother - not to whether or not she is sharing Rhaegar's bed. On the other hand, Lyanna and Rhaegar both seemed to be very much in love and that part of their lives could well be looked on as exclusive. My guess is that that is just how they viewed it. What seems totally out of character to me in my read of Lyanna is that she would willingly accept a bastard status for her child - assuming she had one with Rhaegar.

I believe he married her from the beginning knowing that pregnancy was possible, so that solves the issue of Jon being legitimate in the short term, but I think it would be also in her character to demand that he make a choice, especially if she loves him.

Ned remembers Lyanna not just as a beauty, but with steele beneath that beauty, as he reminded Robert.

If she is the KOTLT, (which I think she is), I tend to think she is fierce enough to make that demand.

The text also states in Danys visions in the House of the Undying that she "saw" who could only be her Brother say to the woman in the bed, and sadly that there must be another.

Until ADWD came out, that statement was rather ambiguous with people speculating that he needed another woman because another childbirth could kill Elia, but now we know that the Maesters "told Rhaeger that she would bare no more children." Not, "if she trys to have another it will kill her and you should refrain." It said she will not.

I think Martin makes that distinction for a reason.

So, when Rhaegar has that conversation with Elia, and he's speaking in terms of "sadness," I think he knows he's going to have to hurt her, especially as it is put into the context after Aegons birth, but they both are aware of her condition.

Whether he's speaking from a sense of urgency to produce the third head, or whether he is using it as an excuse to pursue Lyanna, or both, we'll have to find out.

Making his own decisions regarding his marriage may have been another reason he planned to remove Aerys, because I doubt he'd have allowed him to have Lyanna for his wife first, or second.

And I don't think Connington would have been privy to anything as sensative as a plan to put her aside, but even so, putting Elia aside doesn't negate Aegon from still being Heir to the throne, and thats all that matters to Dorne anyway.

I have nothing for, or against the polygamy theory other than it layers on another cumbersome aspect of Targaryen entitlement that Rhaegar's "nobility" is supposed to help negate.

They also have no dragons, and their mystique has been fading, particularly with Aerys and his capture, so I would think that Rhaegar might be politically astute enough to understand how the rest of the Land might look upon this when they already grudgingly accept the incest, and he still needs the support of His Lords.

While setting Elia aside would not be without protest, if they were omnicient enough to practice incest and polygamy, setting aside a wife because she could no longer secure the bloodline is probably the least of the three, as having Aegon the lone heir still was not safe as Rhaeneys couldn't inherit.

In real history, there were quite a few Kings who became so, because their elder Brother unexpectedly died.

We can't assume that Rhaegar taking a second wife would not be as much insult and injury to Elia as putting her aside.

But putting Elia aside because she is barren put's Rhaegar in a more sympathetic position to make an arguement for his defense, because his Lords understand the need for heirs even if they privately doubt thats the only reason he does it.

If Elia had given him even two sons, then yes, putting her aside would be almost impossible.

Even Kevan Lannister remembers that if only Aerys had married Cersei to Rhaegar, she could have given him the sons the Prince wanted, "silver manes with purple eyes, and he might never have looked twice at the Stark girl," so at least he thinks that was one of the reasons for doing what he did in taking Lyanna.

The only way I see polygamy in the long term that Lyanna voluntarily signs up for is that Elia's health is rapidly deteriorating, and may be dying.

[Gala]

Even Kevan Lannister remembers that if only Aerys had married Cersei to Rhaegar, she could have given him the sons the Prince wanted, "silver manes with purple eyes, and he might never have looked twice at the Stark girl," so at least he thinks that was one of the reasons for doing what he did in taking Lyanna.

Well, based on what is told about Lyanna, I would doubt that Cersei would replace her in any way. Even her beauty wouldn't help. I thought he fall in love with Lyanna, because of her personality (I believe she is KotLT) plus she was also described quite attractive, "wild beauty" and so on. Dornish princess was also cute, not astonishing beautiful or something, but still he did not love her at all. I personally think that R&L escape seem more impulsive (because he was in love for the first time) rather than Rhaegar-only-wanted-a-child-from-Lyanna. Kevan said from his point of view + Rhaegar was already married when everything happen and technically Cersei wouldn't be able to fulfill what he thought. Moreover, I presume Rhaegar knew about Tywin-Aerys' agreement about marring him with Cersei, and he would probably marry her as he did with Elia, but I think the same sh*t would happen at the tournament and so on, no matter who would have been his wife. Actually, I can't see Cersei making anybody happy (except Jaime, of course) and especially "a perfect" Rhaegar. IMHO she is too "empty".

But on the whole, Elia's health was possibly, as you say, "rapidly deteriorating, and may be dying".

[imany]

Is it noted somewhere why Rhaenys wouldn't be able to inherit?

[Ursa]

Ever since the war for the throne that was called 'the dance of dragons' (the older sister vs her younger half-brother) females have been put dead last in the line of succession, behind all male options.

[Alia of the knife]

To Ned Lyanna said about Robert "he will never keep to one bed".

Would she accept a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar?

Her children not in line for the throne, possible alienation from her family and House, being laughed at by the fine folks at court .. that is some tough cookie to swallow.

All for love?

I will re-read all passages that talk about Lyanna and Rhaegar. At the former reads I found it odd that I found no clear references that she ever expressed that she loved Rhaegar. Ned never says this, if I recall correctly. If there are references in the text I missed I hope someone will name them, so I can look it up.

Lyanna accepted the crown of blue roses at Harrenhal. That is stated by different sources.

Well, is this proof that she loves Rhaegar?

Could she refuse being crowned as queen of love and beauty?

That would be an enormous affront to the crown prince of the realm.

According to Ned at her 'bed of blood' she clutched wheatered rose petals.

Proof that she loved Rhaegar?

Possibly, but could this also be out of despair and grief for what happened to her?

It is tempting to think of a great love between Lyanna and Rhaegar, that they both doe-eyed were prepared to give everything up for each other.

I do love a good and romantic love story, even the ones who end sad.

Don't want to rain on anyones parade ... sorry ... but I would leave some room for doubt that this is what happened

On the Crown of Beauty,

In the book, it actually says it was laid in her lap, and it was Ned who reached out and felt the "cruel thorns."

(I wondered at this passage in the beginning, because if Rhaegar had to reach over and lay it in her lap, it does not sound as though she reached for it, so rather ambiguous.).

I think she did love him, but it doesn't mean she may not have been conflicted about it, so good points.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, based on what is told about Lyanna, I would doubt that Cersei would replace her in any way. Even her beauty wouldn't help. I thought he fall in love with Lyanna, because of her personality (I believe she is KotLT) plus she was also described quite attractive, "wild beauty" and so on. Dornish princess was also cute, not astonishing beautiful or something, but still he did not love her at all. I personally think that R&L escape seem more impulsive (because he was in love for the first time) rather than Rhaegar-only-wanted-a-child-from-Lyanna. Kevan said from his point of view + Rhaegar was already married when everything happen and technically Cersei wouldn't be able to fulfill what he thought. Moreover, I presume Rhaegar knew about Tywin-Aerys' agreement about marring him with Cersei, and he would probably marry her as he did with Elia, but I think the same sh*t would happen at the tournament and so on, no matter who would have been his wife. Actually, I can't see Cersei making anybody happy (except Jaime, of course) and especially "a perfect" Rhaegar. IMHO she is too "empty".

But on the whole, Elia's health was possibly, as you say, "rapidly deteriorating, and may be dying".

Agreed on all the above, and I actually speculate Rhaegar may have had as much to do with turning down the Lannister betrothal as his Father, because he did see Cersei's true nature.

Also, if Kevan had the guts to remark on another womans beauty outside the "sacred" Cersei, then Lyanna must have been beautiful indeed, but with a better personality.

My point was that many have speculated for years that Rhaegar did what he did soley for prophesy and to "save the world," and while prophesy might have been one factor, there probably were more human elements to this story.

And this all blew up into a discussion on the pros and cons of long-term polygamy, and while I agree that Martin solves the problem using the fact that the Targaryens had done it in the past to save Jon from being born out of wedlock, I also speculated that perhaps he may have determined to put Elia aside since she could have no more children.

I referenced the Kevan statement, because it implies that "giving the Prince the sons he wanted" was a factor, and as a factor Rhaegar could go to his Lords and have them understand he needed other children, and since Elia couldn't do that anymore, then he'd have to marry again.

My humble opinion is that after fighting a war in which thousands were killed, and though his Father sparked that because he started killing Nobles than really his kidnapping of Lyanna, (thought that is still no small thing), they would probably want to hear a more sane explaination as to why he did it.

Having more than one heir is something they would understand better than "I need a third head of the dragon, (they are not even probably privy to the prophesy, or if they are, they don't believe in that those things anymore), to save the world, and by the way, just like one of my jerk Ancestors, I'm going to have more than one wife, now aren't you glad I put my crazy Father out of power?"

His Lords might feel that they've traded one madman for another. :uhoh:

[corbon]

On the Crown of Beauty,

In the book, it actually says it was laid in her lap, and it was Ned who reached out and felt the "cruel thorns."

(I wondered at this passage in the beginning, because if Rhaegar had to reach over and lay it in her lap, it does not sound as though she reached for it, so rather ambiguous.).

I think she did love him, but it doesn't mean she may not have been conflicted about it, so good points.

Possibly it was laid using the tip of a lance...

[FanTasy]

Sure they are. Just not first in line. If she has a son, that son is one single death (Aegon) away from the direct line to the throne.

Sure there is room for doubt. Nothing is proven here, just probable.

Edit: Oh, and you missed out crying at Rhaegar's sad song, then thumping her little brother when he teased her about it.

Thanks for clearing that up! Although the laws of inheritance and for accessing the throne in Westeros are foggy, the firstborn son out of a legitimate polygamous marriage would be called to the throne if the firstborn son of the first marriage perished.

I am going to read that bit about the song, forgot about it.

Sigh. Real life is so dull. Sad songs were sung to me without me falling in love for the singer and eloping with him into polygamy because he wanted to breed a third child to fulfil his prophecy :cool4:

[Alia of the knife]

I do believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, and were trying to be together.

And personally, I do want that, because though one has to have more in life than work, or the dailey grind, if I am going to invest time and emotion in a work, then at the end, I don't want to walk away from that work feeling empty, or just feeling bad.

As an excellent Story Teller (so far), Martin makes us feel for this place and thes people- no small thing.

But, I also feel that I have to keep an open mind about his work as well.

Much of the evidence that has been put forward is sometimes tricky.

Example: Lyanna cring over Rhaegars song.

She could have been crying because it was the one of the pivotal moments when she began to fall in love with him, or it could reflect a highborn Lady's esteem for his ability.

And even going back to a Connington account, all the women of his Hall cried when Rhaegar sang.

Lyanna, tomboy or not, as a highborn woman would have been most likely versed in the Arts as well, and may have even played an instrument and sang, though it may not have the best thing she could do just like Arya and needlepoint.

Nonetheless, as a woman raised to oversee her Husbands home, beyond running a castle, ornamental duties such as entertainment would also be a "job requirement."

So, this incident could just reflect her appreciation of that Art, and her pouring wine on Benjens head I think is just part of their relationship and may not have reflected "anger," or "embarrassment" over his teasing which was probably a common occurrance.

Like I said, I am just trying to keep an open mind about some of these accounts, because I think by and large, you do have to read between the lines to fathom what is going on, because Text alone can be deceiveing, or we wouldn't be having these discussions.

[Ghost714]

Well, based on what is told about Lyanna, I would doubt that Cersei would replace her in any way. Even her beauty wouldn't help. I thought he fall in love with Lyanna, because of her personality (I believe she is KotLT) plus she was also described quite attractive,

I'm sorry I usually know all these little things but what is KotLT??? I think it is Knight of the Laughing Tree, is that right? In reference to Lyanna???

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm sorry I usually know all these little things but what is KotLT??? I think it is Knight of the Laughing Tree, is that right? In reference to Lyanna???

Yes, you have it right.

[imany]

Agreed on all the above, and I actually speculate Rhaegar may have had as much to do with turning down the Lannister betrothal as his Father, because he did see Cersei's true nature.

Tywin's attempt to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar happened when she was 10, and they had never met before. Rhaegar couldn't have stopped it based on her personality given they didn't even know each other.

[Alia of the knife]

Tywin's attempt to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar happened when she was 10, and they had never met before. Rhaegar couldn't have stopped it based on her personality given they didn't even know each other.

Thats true, though Tywin had been grooming her since she was six, or seven and she'd watched him from afar.

He had to be aware of her given her Father was his Fathers Hand, and while there was tension between Tywin and Aerys, he was still putting her front and center, even after Rhaegar married Elia.

But, that line in the book when she looks into his eyes, and she's thinking one thing hints that conversely Rhaegar looking into her eyes may be thinking another, (which I could see as totally Martin), and something didn't resonate.

I would imagine Rhaegar might have some opinion and perhaps steered his Father in another direction, which Aerys would be only too happy to do anyway.

Something happened as I am sure Aerys knew that welcoming them to the West wasn't the only thing Tywin had in mind.

And Aerys never left KL after his capture, so journeying to the West means that these events must have happened prior to his imprisonment, so at this point, Aerys and Rhaegar may have had a better relationship because his madness and paranoia had not become so advanced, so Rhaegar might have had more influence on Aerys.

Rhaegar being revealed as the driving force behind the rejection of Cersei would be another Martin irony.

[imany]

Tyrion's conversation with Oberyn and some other clues, such as Barristan's recollection of Aerys and Joanna, lead me to believe that Aerys was responsible for this decision. Rhaegar was a dutiful prince and had no reason to bear a grudge against the Lannisters, whereas Aerys certainly did.

[LadyMary]

Agreed on all the above, and I actually speculate Rhaegar may have had as much to do with turning down the Lannister betrothal as his Father, because he did see Cersei's true nature.

Also, if Kevan had the guts to remark on another womans beauty outside the "sacred" Cersei, then Lyanna must have been beautiful indeed, but with a better personality.

My point was that many have speculated for years that Rhaegar did what he did soley for prophesy and to "save the world," and while prophesy might have been one factor, there probably were more human elements to this story.

And this all blew up into a discussion on the pros and cons of long-term polygamy, and while I agree that Martin solves the problem using the fact that the Targaryens had done it in the past to save Jon from being born out of wedlock, I also speculated that perhaps he may have determined to put Elia aside since she could have no more children.

I referenced the Kevan statement, because it implies that "giving the Prince the sons he wanted" was a factor, and as a factor Rhaegar could go to his Lords and have them understand he needed other children, and since Elia couldn't do that anymore, then he'd have to marry again.

My humble opinion is that after fighting a war in which thousands were killed, and though his Father sparked that because he started killing Nobles than really his kidnapping of Lyanna, (thought that is still no small thing), they would probably want to hear a more sane explaination as to why he did it.

Having more than one heir is something they would understand better than "I need a third head of the dragon, (they are not even probably privy to the prophesy, or if they are, they don't believe in that those things anymore), to save the world, and by the way, just like one of my jerk Ancestors, I'm going to have more than one wife, now aren't you glad I put my crazy Father out of power?"

His Lords might feel that they've traded one madman for another. :uhoh:

I agree that Rhaegar would have rejected the proposal of Cersei if he knew anything about her character. She was already torturing her baby brother in view of visiting dignitaries back when she was just a girl and maybe that got around. That, and Tywin's own reputation for being merciless and grasping probably didn't endear him to the royal family either...too much potential for Tywin to try to exert his influence in ways Aerys obviously didn't like or feared.

Back on topic, I think we're getting little bits and pieces of nuance about the relationship of Rhaegar and Lyanna and what Rhaegar's motivations may have been. Kevan's thoughts suggest that maybe it was common knowledge that Elia had been set aside Rhaegar had taken another wife. Certainly, we know that the Martell's were not happy with how Elia was being treated prior to grudgingly joining Rhaegar's cause in the war. Does that mean he was just unfaithful to her with another woman, or that he had divorced her? Just speculating, but it would be more honorable to divorce Elia and marry Lyanna if he cared at all about the reputation of both ladies.

In any case, whether Rhaegar eloped with Lord Stark's willing daugther or "kidnapped" her, that goes a way to making some question his sanity, certainly. And maybe it didn't matter if Lyanna was openly willing or not, because he still carried off the daughter of Lord Stark who had a marriage contract with Robert Baratheon.

I can't help thinking that if Rhaegar loved Lyanna as much as Selmy thinks, neither of them would have wanted to let the kingdom think that she had eloped with him willingly. It would have brought dishonor not just on her, but on her House. Perhaps Rhaegar thought that letting everyone think he'd kidnapped her would absolve Lyanna from any blame and that he was willing to take the blame for both of them as long as he got to be with the woman he loved, with the added bonus that she might give him a child.