R+L=J v.18

[Alia of the knife]

There's nothing in the text to suggest she wouldn't, either. Which is basically my whole point.

And it's for this reason that I don't find the comparison to be particularly useful or illuminating with regard to the polygamy question.

I don't know, I always got the impression that Aegon the Conqueror was regarded rather positively in the eyes of the Westerosi, as he is often described in a manner that makes him out to be charismatic and magnanimous. Regardless, though he was perhaps decried for practicing incest, there is nonetheless no indication from the books that he was decried for practicing polygamy.

I understand, but I'm not just asking for your take-away, I'm asking for textual evidence for your take-away. So far I don't think you've really given any, though this is not to say that it doesn't exist.

I look at the series in an overview manner, therefore I don't attach myself to one strain of thought, because Martin has left so many loose ends.

Again, I hear what you are saying, but I also could say the same regarding your useage of evidence vs. text, but given so many loose ends, we are left to extrapolate the "facts" from it as we interpret it.

Aegon the Conquerer: Are we sure the independent Kingdoms needed unifying? I mean, after the unification, there were still bloody civil wars, except this time, it was Targ. vs. Targ., and the Houses still pitted against one another.

Lyannas reaction to Roberts infidelity vs. polygamy. (Lets really think this through to the logical conclusion)

The text tells us that part of Lyannas aversion to Robert was that "he would never keep to one bed."

She doesn't get the chance to love him, because it's already been tainted by a negative behavior she clearly feels strongly about.

I extrapolate she's not into sharing her mate.

Not in the text:

Many have theorized that she would tolerate it in Rhaegar because his was a political union, arranged, and she loves him which may make her more apt to accept sharing Rhaegar with Elia.

Logical conclusion extrapolated from theory: If this polygamy is going to be permanent, Rhaegar will have to show Elia some favor and possibly sleep with her now and again just to keep the vicious Courtiers from eating her alive, and keep the respect balanced equally between the two women.

So, the conclusion of theory here is that we are expected to accept that Lyanna rejected Robert, whom she did not even love, because he was unfaithful, but she would accept sharing Rhaegar whom she did love, with another woman just because he's married to both of them?

My summation is that Lyanna wants someone to be faithful to her, and not just to matrimonial permimeters.

Summation: While polygamy works for the short term making Jon legitimate, long-term, theorizing if Rhaegar and family had lived, I think it's problematic.

Again, I think we reach an impasse on this subject, but I do appreciate both your ability to frame an arguement and remaining civil.

The two are not always possible.

[Snowistargarynitisknown]

Are James and Cersei really Lannisters?

Could they be Aerys?

If Tyrion could, why coundn't they? (I'm not familiar with this timeline).

I may not know as much as everyone else who has been discussing on these boards for such a long while but I will say that of all the characters in these books Cersei is her Fathers Daughter to a fault.... Conniving, power hungry, deceitful, self serving and cruel... I try to be open minded about the good and bad of all characters but she is beyond redemption in my book and if she turns out to be a Targ or god forbid placed on a dragon or in a position of honor at the end of this I will break my kindle against the rocks of Winterfell. I would rather Hodor get a dragon than Cersei... Actually I would love it if Hodor got a dragon... I would rather Walder Frey be a Targ. lol. The only person less deserving of a good ending than Cersei is Littlefinger, and if he gets anything other than charred into dragon dinner or decapitated by Sandor Clegane I will jump off the Wall.

I think the Lannister family history and intertwining is enough without questioning the parentage of any of them...now if Tyrion had one violet eye.... then I would question ;)

[Jon Targ]

Are James and Cersei really Lannisters?

I'm pretty sure they are Lannisters. This story doesn't need more secret Targaryens if R+L=J is true.

[Snowistargarynitisknown]

I quoted that off of a post by Rodrigo Baldin....

And then responded....

I would be soooo upset if Jamie and Cersei are anything but Lannisters... I agree with you Jon Targ there are enough possible secret Targs already we don't need anymore. Cersei is the super Lannister when you think about it... she is soooo like her pops.

[Ghost714]

I quoted that off of a post by Rodrigo Baldin....

And then responded....

I would be soooo upset if Jamie and Cersei are anything but Lannisters... I agree with you Jon Targ there are enough possible secret Targs already we don't need anymore. Cersei is the super Lannister when you think about it... she is soooo like her pops.

I'm not saying Cersei is a Targaryen, I actually domt believe that at all.

But someone could argue that Cersei is exactly like her father, simply because he is the man that raised her. It could be the classic argument of "nature vs nurture". Tywin was the person she believed to be her father, and she idolized him. So that could have been enough to influence her to be like him, without a genetic connection.

But I also feel like someone could argue, that Cersei is not "exactly" like her father. While she does have many characteristics of Tywin, she also has some characteristics that Tywin doesn't understand/agree with. Tywin sent Tyrion to Kingslanding to basically get Cersei on a leash etc. Cersei may have thought she was doing things that were "text book" Tywin Lannister, but Tywin would have never given the High Septon, permission to reinstall the "Warriors Sons", and Cersei's uncle Kevan makes that very clear. And I'm sure Cersei thought she was really "Tywin's daughter" when she decided to stop payment to the Iron Bank of Braavos, so she could pay for her warships to be built. But I'm positive Tywin would have never done that either. My point is Cersei may think she is very much like Tywin, but in many ways she was doing the exact opposite of what Tywin would do, by thinking what she was doing, was exactly what he would do....

Just my two cents on the topic

[Falrinn]

I'm pretty sure they are Lannisters. This story doesn't need more secret Targaryens if R+L=J is true.

Going to have to agree here.

While the Targaryens are undoubtedly a very important part of the story, I think it's much better if Jamie and Cersei (and Tyrion for that matter) are actually Lannisters.

Jon being a secret Targaryen heir is very compelling. Since he'd still be half Stark through his mother he would embody a balance, or to put it more poetically "song", of ice and fire. R+L=J could very well make Jon the nexus where every major plotline of the story converges.

Cersei and Jamie being Targaryan bastards would be cruelly ironic, but not much else. Jamie's position on the Kingsguard wouldn't be greatly affected as there is a precedent for bastards serving on it, and Cersei's grasp on power is already almost nonexistent as is. It just doesn't affect the story all that much.

[corbon]

Are James and Cersei really Lannisters?

Could they be Aerys?

If Tyrion could, why coundn't they? (I'm not familiar with this timeline).

Don't kill me! :D

This is a bit off topic, but I'll summarise for you once - further than that you should go search the appropriate threads.

1. Aerys is known to have had a thing for Joanna.

2. Aerys took some unseemly liberties with Joanna on Tywins' wedding night - the implication was definitely not that it went 'that' far at the time, but that it went further than decorum (which is pretty loose at such times - see other wedding night bedding scenes) allowed - this is backup for #1.

3. Aerys is known to have been sexually violent (raping his wife violently while Jaime and Hightower stood guard uncomfortably outside the door).

4. The twincest thing is disturbingly like the Targaryens. Cersei was also attracted to Rhaegar (more incestual leanings?).

5. Cersei seems to have something similar to the Targaryen capability for madness, paranoia and (self) delusion.

6. Cersei's almost sexual response to the Tower of the Hand burning, again reminiscent of Targayen madness and lust for fire.

7. In story terms you'd have Jaime killing one father and Tyrion the other, but whose is whose father?

8. You'd also have the irony of Tywin's golden twins (colouring from their mother) being Aerys' and the ugly dwarf being Tywin's. Or the other way round if the Tyrion=Targ theory is true.

There are all sorts of possibilities (the case for Tyrion instead of the twins being Aerys' has more potential evidence than this).

IMO, I think Tyrion = Targ is less than 30% probably and Jaime+Cersei = Targ is less than 5%

But they can't be ruled out (we don't have any temporal evidence on locations of Joanna and Aerys at the critical times) and if they turn out to be true, there are plenty of little clues scattered through the text.

GRRM is a genius.

[SFDanny]

I say Rhaegar would have tried to figure a way forward to make Lyanna his only wife as there is nothing in the text that suggests she would be okay with polygamy.

Actually there is something in the text that points to her being ok with polygamy. If you think the heir to the Targaryen throne is at the Tower, as strongly supported by the actions of the Kingsguard trio, then it really comes down to either Aegon or a legitimate Jon being there (or both.) A legitimate Jon is only possible through a polygamous marriage as there is absolutely nothing to show Elia is set aside, or even that Rhaegar had the power to do so if he wanted to. Aerys called the shots in this regard, not Rhaegar and there is nothing to show he would have even considered it. In fact, the whole Aegon/Young Griff scenario points to Aegon still being the first in line to the throne after Rhaegar - i.e. his mother and his claim was in fact not set aside. Which means, if the Kingsguard was there guarding a legitimate Jon as heir to the throne, then either Lyanna was ok with a polygamous marriage or she was forced into one. Her actions on her death bed (holding onto her winter roses as she dies) point to her not being forced.

I would point out that the idea of polygamy does not necessarily include Lyanna sharing her new husband with Elia. It is entirely possible that Rhaegar and Elia and Lyanna all viewed that part of marriage as over. It was an arranged marriage and there was no need for Elia and Rhaegar to ever share a bed again for their children to continue as heir to the throne. Her prestige, if that was of concern to her, is secured by her relation to her children - meaning as the future Queen Mother - not to whether or not she is sharing Rhaegar's bed. On the other hand, Lyanna and Rhaegar both seemed to be very much in love and that part of their lives could well be looked on as exclusive. My guess is that that is just how they viewed it. What seems totally out of character to me in my read of Lyanna is that she would willingly accept a bastard status for her child - assuming she had one with Rhaegar.

[imany]

So, the conclusion of theory here is that we are expected to accept that Lyanna rejected Robert, whom she did not even love, because he was unfaithful, but she would accept sharing Rhaegar whom she did love, with another woman just because he's married to both of them?

My summation is that Lyanna wants someone to be faithful to her, and not just to matrimonial permimeters.

Interesting theory, but... Love isn't logical. There's not always 1+1=2 when you throw emotions into the mix, especially love.

There's a big difference between Robert, who was probably never going to give up anything after marrying Lyanna, and Rhaegar, who gave up everything to have Lyanna. Robert was a man who enjoyed his pleasures, which is what eventually killed him, and Lyanna said as much to Ned.

There are some things in the text that point to Lyanna being impulsive: dumping wine on her brother for teasing her about crying for Rhaegar's singing (or was it poetry? I forget); having the same streak of wildness that Arya has, which got her killed in Ned's opinion. Also her riding ability; Arya was caught, but compared to her aunt in the process--why would she be compared to her aunt if Lyanna hadn't been in a similar situation at some point?

I point out Lyanna's impulsiveness because it's possible Jon was conceived before being made legitimate. Alternatively, she had already run away with him and triggered a war; what else was she going to do? If your choice was having a legitimate kid vs having an illegitimate one with the man you loved, which would you choose?

Once there was a war started for her sake (obviously, there are a lot of other elements in play, but Lyanna was the trigger) I don't think Rhaegar could have treated her as an affair, and I don't think Lyanna would have wanted to be treated as an affair. When I first read about Jon, Lyanna+Rhaegar was apparent, but I didn't think about the possibility of polygamy; there were no other instances of it in recent times, I think. But if they weren't married, I don't think the Kingsguard would have been there to protect Lyanna from her own brother coming to retrieve her.

[TyrionsFlagon]

If R+L=J is true, how are some ways that it could come out of the closet? Who's still alive that would possibly know this? Who were all the people at the tower where Lyanna died?

[Arya Targaryen]

Well, still alive:

Howland Reed - the only (known) survivor (apart from Ned). The Kingsguards died, and the other 5 men, who were with Ned also died. They are buried there.

Possible "survivor": Wylla - a wetnurse must have been around. She stayed with the Daynes and claimed to be Jon's mother - so she is obviously on the plan. She may be still alive and well.

Any other "staff" at the ToJ - unknown

My guess is that Benjen knows the truth about Jon and he may be alive as well.

[Ghost714]

Well, still alive:

Howland Reed - the only (known) survivor (apart from Ned). The Kingsguards died, and the other 5 men, who were with Ned also died. They are buried there.

Possible "survivor": Wylla - a wetnurse must have been around. She stayed with the Daynes and claimed to be Jon's mother - so she is obviously on the plan. She may be still alive and well.

Any other "staff" at the ToJ - unknown

My guess is that Benjen knows the truth about Jon and he may be alive as well.

Also another way for R+L=J to "come out of the closet", could be that Bran somehow learns the truth. Maybe he Wargs the Weirwood Heart Tree at Winterfell again,and goes back in time, and see's Ned praying about it to the Old gods. It could be like when Bran saw Ned praying in the gods wood, in ADwD. Ned is saying something like, "please let them grow up as close as brothers". Many people already believe, myself included, that what Bran saw then, was pertaining to Robb and Jon. Because if R+L=J is true, and I believe it is, then Robb and Jon are not actually brothers.

Other than that, and what you listed, I can not really think of another way for the truth about R+L=J, to come out.

[Aegon I]

Instead of looking at all the literal clues that are dropped in the book lets look at the various literary techniques that are employed by GRRM (and all writers) such as dualities, allusions, foreshadowing and most importantly human flaw.

To understand what happened between L+R I think we have to look at what happened to cause the Red Wedding. (GRRM has stated that tragic love is one of the themes)

When you marry your children for alliences instead of letting them choose for love it usually dosen't have a happy ending (Like Rob And Jeyne Westerling living happily ever after lol) To understand Lyanna and the position she was in lets look at the two other lords daughters from the north that we have had POV from Sansa and Arya.

Sansa and Arya and their differences remind me how different Cersei and Lyanna must have been. It has been explicitly stated by Ned Stark that not only did Arya physically resemble Lyanna but she acted like her when Lyanna was Arya's age. Although we meet Cersei at an older age its not hard to imagine her as Sansa growing up the beautiful lords daughter who is spoiled and believes her knight in shining armour will come to make a queen of her. (It is mentioned that Sansa is as beautiful as a young Cersei) Even though Cersei fooled around with Jamie (UGH!) It is stated that she was infatuated by Robert because he was a valiant warrior, handsome and not mention a young king. Not until their wedding night did things start to sour. (Her prince wasn't what she thought just like Joffery wasn't what Sansa thought) I'm getting ahead of myself because Lyanna was originally supposed to marry Robert and we know Robert loved Lyanna but the question no one is asking is "was Lyanna in love with Robert?" I would compare it to Arya being betrothed to Joffery. (in a few words not her type lol) But it has been stated that Rheagar was book worm who took little interest in manly things till he read a book then at 14 took up sword fighting and was a natural. Sounds like the type for Lyanna/Arya. It is also stated by Barristan that even though Rheagar had everything he wanted and all the talent in the world he was very sullen... I feel like I've been writing for hours so I'll get to the point I believe Lyanna and Rhegar ran off together not caring what other people thought (Rickard and others might have called it kidnap to save the honour and allience to House Barthenon) but I think they truly believed they were soul mates and ran off together not thinking about the consequences. (everyone allways assumes that Rhegear and Lyanna had the sensibilities of 60 year olds but they were young) But the consequences were huge just like the consequences for Robb marrying Jeyne.

[WhiteWolf26]

When you marry your children for alliences instead of letting them choose for love it usually dosen't have a happy ending (Like Rob And Jeyne Westerling living happily ever after lol)

Your point contradicts itself. Rob and Jeyne married for love, not alliances.

I'm getting ahead of myself because Lyanna was originally supposed to marry Robert and we know Robert loved Lyanna but the question no one is asking is "was Lyanna in love with Robert?"

No one asks that because we know she didnt. She knew what he was and expressed her doubt in his ability to be faithful to Ned.

but I think they truly believed they were soul mates and ran off together not thinking about the consequences. (everyone allways assumes that Rhegear and Lyanna had the sensibilities of 60 year olds but they were young) But the consequences were huge just like the consequences for Robb marrying Jeyne.

I agree that they were probably madly in love but without a legitimization of that love Jon is still just a bastard. Rhaegar knew he needed to father another child in order for the dragon to have three heads so this impulsive theory of them just being young and in love doesn't really pan out. This pregnancy was planned, at least on Rhaegars end.

[GreenGirl]

We also cannot assume that Lyanna just loved Rhaegar so much, she would consent to being number two.

Especially when she herself is from a vastly different culture.

It's one thing to grow up in the traditions of a culture to accept certain practices because that is what you know.

It's quite another to be put into a situation that you don't understand and be expected to adapt.

Another fact to reinforce the bolded; she specifically says to Ned something about not wanting to be with Robert, because he wont be faithful to her... that should reinforce how she wouldnt have been to pleased about being #2 to someone that she did in fact love (or so we assume)

[FanTasy]

Other than that, and what you listed, I can not really think of another way for the truth about R+L=J, to come out.

Other ways were thought of in earlier threads. One of them is that Ned told Ashara Dayne. If she is still alive she could tell what Ned told her.

Other possibilities: if Wylla knew, she could have talked. Howland Reed could have talked.

Remember what happened to Arianne when the kidnap or Myrcella blew up into her face? Someone always talks.

[Arya Targaryen]

she specifically says to Ned something about not wanting to be with Robert, because he wont be faithful to her... that should reinforce how she wouldnt have been to pleased about being #2 to someone that she did in fact love (or so we assume)

But why should she become #2? Elia couldn't give birth one more time, so there is no need to sleep with her. I think Rhaegar liked Elia, they respected each other, so he would have treated her according to that. But she was weak, maybe dying slowly - we don't know that. A woman in her place would like to spend as much time with her children as possible. Rhaegar is not directly needed for that. Lyanna can have him alone. And when Elia dies, Lyanna becomes the only wife.

[Gala]

Instead of looking at all the literal clues that are dropped in the book lets look at the various literary techniques that are employed by GRRM (and all writers) such as dualities, allusions, foreshadowing and most importantly human flaw. To understand what happened between L+R I think we have to look at what happened to cause the Red Wedding. (GRRM has stated that tragic love is one of the themes) When you marry your children for alliences instead of letting them choose for love it usually dosen't have a happy ending (Like Rob And Jeyne Westerling living happily ever after lol) To understand Lyanna and the position she was in lets look at the two other lords daughters from the north that we have had POV from Sansa and Arya. Sansa and Arya and their differences remind me how different Cersei and Lyanna must have been. It has been explicitly stated by Ned Stark that not only did Arya physically resemble Lyanna but she acted like her when Lyanna was Arya's age. Although we meet Cersei at an older age its not hard to imagine her as Sansa growing up the beautiful lords daughter who is spoiled and believes her knight in shining armour will come to make a queen of her. (It is mentioned that Sansa is as beautiful as a young Cersei) Even though Cersei fooled around with Jamie (UGH!) It is stated that she was infatuated by Robert because he was a valiant warrior, handsome and not mention a young king. Not until their wedding night did things start to sour. (Her prince wasn't what she thought just like Joffery wasn't what Sansa thought) I'm getting ahead of myself because Lyanna was originally supposed to marry Robert and we know Robert loved Lyanna but the question no one is asking is "was Lyanna in love with Robert?" I would compare it to Arya being betrothed to Joffery. (in a few words not her type lol) But it has been stated that Rheagar was book worm who took little interest in manly things till he read a book then at 14 took up sword fighting and was a natural. Sounds like the type for Lyanna/Arya. It is also stated by Barristan that even though Rheagar had everything he wanted and all the talent in the world he was very sullen... I feel like I've been writing for hours so I'll get to the point I believe Lyanna and Rhegar ran off together not caring what other people thought (Rickard and others might have called it kidnap to save the honour and allience to House Barthenon) but I think they truly believed they were soul mates and ran off together not thinking about the consequences. (everyone allways assumes that Rhegear and Lyanna had the sensibilities of 60 year olds but they were young) But the consequences were huge just like the consequences for Robb marrying Jeyne.

100% agree!

I also think: when Lyanna was telling Ned that she didn't want to be with Robert and to be someone faithful instead, I presume she wasn't in love before, I mean for real and when she actually fall in love she just changed her mind: she didn't care for anything and just wanted to be with her love- with Rhaegar. some kind of Romeo and Juliet style :) Remember that even Romeo thought he loved, but when he met Juliet the world changed 180 degrees as well as his views. But I agree she wouldn't be ok with mistress status. That's my opinion.

[GreenGirl]

But why should she become #2? Elia couldn't give birth one more time, so there is no need to sleep with her. I think Rhaegar liked Elia, they respected each other, so he would have treated her according to that. But she was weak, maybe dying slowly - we don't know that. A woman in her place would like to spend as much time with her children as possible. Rhaegar is not directly needed for that. Lyanna can have him alone. And when Elia dies, Lyanna becomes the only wife.

I was agreeing with Alia of the Knife, when she was saying that at some point, Rhaegar would have put Elia aside (whether by Elia dying, or claiming she was unfertile and simply setting her aside) so as to have Lyanna as his only. I am sure they spoke about the future at some point during their 'escape' together.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Your point contradicts itself. Rob and Jeyne married for love, not alliances.

That WAS the point. Robb and Jeyne married for love and it didn't end well.