R+L=J v.18

[James Nicholls]

This, basically.

If the truth doesn't come out in the story, what's the point? Reed is one of the only people, if not the only person, still alive who can actually confirm it in a way that has implications to the overall plot. And it has to have some implications because, like I said, what would be the point otherwise? It can't just be, "Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, that's it, the end."

It's an interesting point. I don't see what conclusive proof one could have of parentage in that time. It's not like they can pull out some DNA testing, is it? (And even that would be hard given both Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead). Given how suspicious people seem to be of the Reed's I doubt anyone's gonna give a fig if he comes out and claims that Jon is Rhaegar's heir. The political consequences are negligble, basically.

Of course for Jon it's a big deal on a personal level (and a compelling reason for him not being dead yet) and for the whole three dragons prophecy of Dany (my money is still on Dany, Aegon and Jon riding those dragons at some point). That's certainly how a conventional fantasy would end things, but convention is GRRM's strong suit. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon comes to nothing and ends up dead in some futile battle. I'm not holding my breath for a normal resolution to things. I think it's highly likely some undesirable will be sitting on the throne by the end of this, and the Targs will all be dead.

[Ghost714]

I thank you all that replied about my question on Robert and Lyanna. I totally agre. Timeline is enough to throw it away.

Let's assume now on that "Yes! Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon" and follow Ned's steps (I slept with this damn theory last night).

So, again, it happened and Ned knew it from the begining:

1) Ned lies to Robert and this is the first and biggest treason to Baratheons.

2) Ned doesnt like Robert's visit in Winterfel.

3) Ned doesnt want to be the Hand.

4) Ned goes south, against his will.

5) Ned starts to follow Arryn's steps worring about what the last Hand could have found, not because of Joffrey Lannister's heritage. And here I find LF's interests. I really think LF was close to Jon Arryn, just to do after what-we-know-he-did.

6) However, Ned is hunted because of it and perhaps Arryn were really looking for it. If I'm right about LF and JA, maybe it has been the opportunity to LF start his plan, sending the knife to north. What happend to Bran/James/Cersei nothing has to do with LF's plan.

7) Ned finds Gendry and send him away from the Throne, not away from danger. I would say that this is part of Ned's game: if somebody would ever look for an heir to be killed in the Wall, certainly it would be Gendry, not Jon.

8) Ned is arrested and confess somebody's crime believing that he would be sent to the Wall, and then come back with the trully heir, supported by the north. Not because of Sansa.

Why support Stannis, thou?

In my view, it was the faster thing to do to avoid Lannisters to take the iron throne...

And Ned actually believed that Stannis was the rightfull heir to the Iron Throne....

[Rodrigo Baldin]

And Ned actually believed that Stannis was the rightfull heir to the Iron Throne....

And Ned actually believed that Stannis was the rightfull heir to the Iron Throne....

Agreed. To the realm he helped to conquer. Robert's.

I'm not saying that Ned wished all his life to put a Targaryen back there. Once Joffrey is not a Baratheon and Stannis is the rightful heir, so must do it quickly. After that, he is arrested. And so on...

[Ghost714]

No, actually he calls Robb and Jon his sons once. In Bran 1 in AGOT.

Jon and Robb found mama direwolf and her pups. Jon reappears at a crest of a hill and waves and shouts at Ned, Bran, Jory.

Jory asks: "Trouble, my lord?"

Ned: "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."

Well, if he wants the good folks at Winterfell to believe that Jon is his bastard son, I think he will put it like this.

He could have just been meaning Robb and Bran, but obviously he isn't going to say.....come lets see what mischief my sons and nephew have rooted out now.

But I doubt Jon was ever really mischievous, on account of walking on egg shells, being the "bastard" and all. So he probably was mainly talking about Robb and Bran.

[FanTasy]

He could have just been meaning Robb and Bran, but obviously he isn't going to say.....come lets see what mischief my sons and nephew have rooted out now.

But I doubt Jon was ever really mischievous, on account of walking on egg shells, being the "bastard" and all. So he probably was mainly talking about Robb and Bran.

No, I'm sorry, It is very clear in the text, Bran was not where Robb was at the time, Bran rode behind Ned and Jory, who were being called by Jon, who was with Robb.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I started the re-read yesterday, and yes, Ned means Robb and Jon when he says my sons in that chapter.

[Rodrigo Baldin]

Obviously Ned would say that. It doesnt change a bit.

[Ghost714]

Right Ned couldn't say my son and nephew to Jory.

But I do think it is significant that Ned says "he is my blood" in both the book and tv show when only referring to Jon

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I just wanted to make clear that Ned refers to both of them as sons in front of the people, but I personally think that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think there's so much evidence pointing that way.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, actually he calls Robb and Jon his sons once. In Bran 1 in AGOT.

Jon and Robb found mama direwolf and her pups. Jon reappears at a crest of a hill and waves and shouts at Ned, Bran, Jory.

Jory asks: "Trouble, my lord?"

Ned: "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."

Well, if he wants the good folks at Winterfell to believe that Jon is his bastard son, I think he will put it like this.

He calls Jon his son to other people. And in conjunction with Robb, he can't not use the word "sons." But talking about Jon on his own, he says things like, "He is of my blood." Far more telling, Ned does not, ever, in his own mind, refer to Jon as his son.

It's an interesting point. I don't see what conclusive proof one could have of parentage in that time. It's not like they can pull out some DNA testing, is it? (And even that would be hard given both Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead). Given how suspicious people seem to be of the Reed's I doubt anyone's gonna give a fig if he comes out and claims that Jon is Rhaegar's heir. The political consequences are negligble, basically.

Of course for Jon it's a big deal on a personal level (and a compelling reason for him not being dead yet) and for the whole three dragons prophecy of Dany (my money is still on Dany, Aegon and Jon riding those dragons at some point). That's certainly how a conventional fantasy would end things, but convention is GRRM's strong suit. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon comes to nothing and ends up dead in some futile battle. I'm not holding my breath for a normal resolution to things. I think it's highly likely some undesirable will be sitting on the throne by the end of this, and the Targs will all be dead.

Like I said, if this is true, Martin must have figured out a way, within the story, to prove it to the people who'd have to be convinced. We might not have figured it out yet, but I'd assume he has.

[Ygrain]

Far more telling, Ned does not, ever, in his own mind, refer to Jon as his son.

:agree: I recall a long time ago, when I started to suspect R+L, I went through all Ned chapters to check how he referrs to Jon in his thoughts. As you say, never does he call him son. That convinced me that I wasn't seeing things.

[FanTasy]

He calls Jon his son to other people. And in conjunction with Robb, he can't not use the word "sons." But talking about Jon on his own, he says things like, "He is of my blood." Far more telling, Ned does not, ever, in his own mind, refer to Jon as his son.

Exactly! The most telling is when Ned lies chained in his cell beneath Kings Landing and he thinks about his children. He mentions every name, but not Jon's. I think the message he asked Varys for was meant for Jon, though. To set things right and explain.

[Ghost714]

Exactly! The most telling is when Ned lies chained in his cell beneath Kings Landing and he thinks about his children. He mentions every name, but not Jon's. I think the message he asked Varys for was meant for Jon, though. To set things right and explain.

I think your right about Ned giving Varys a letter, and Ned meant for Varys to get that letter to Jon

But I do not think the letter had any real information about Jon's parentage. Because Ned wouldn't want Varys to know that information.

I think the letter might have had an apology and stuff, in it for Jon, from Ned. But some where in that letter, I strongly believe Ned tells Jon to go talk to Howland Reed at Greywater Watch.

This to me, makes much more sense, as a way for Jon to learn the truth about his parentage, opposed to Ned putting all that secret information in a letter, and then handing that letter to Varys, who thrives on secrets. I just can't see Ned being fine with Varys knowing this secret information about Jon's parentage.

Howland Reed can also explain everything, and give much more detail, opposed to what Ned could put in a letter. Howland Reed can also answer any questions Jon might have, in response to the info he learns from Howland, a letter can not. Ned knows all this, thus concluding my theory on what the letter given to Varys, really said.

[Tree Warg]

Yeah. I do not think that there is anything in that letter about Jon's real parentage. Otherwise, Jon would have already exited the story. :drunk:

[Tree Warg]

Thanks to those that responded to my last post.

But, I will pose my question a different way.

If everyone here is convinced of whom Jon's parents are & what happened at the ToJ, then why are we here speculating? More to my point; Could it really be this cut and dry? I have thrown out a possible suicide theory & a kinslayer theory and both were routinely refuted. So, why is everyone here? From what I've read on this thread, it's a wrap.

I don't think we truly have what went down there. I have repeatedly stated that Ned is truly disturbed at the events that occurred at the ToJ. Martin is aware of the "information age" we live in and has discussed it at length in a number of interviews. The old codger has something up his sleeve folks. Whether you like it or not.

Just sayin :devil:

[Ghost714]

Thanks to those that responded to my last post.

But, I will pose my question a different way.

If everyone here is convinced of whom Jon's parents are & what happened at the ToJ, then why are we here speculating? More to my point; Could it really be this cut and dry? I have thrown out a possible suicide theory & a kinslayer theory and both were routinely refuted. So, why is everyone here? From what I've read on this thread, it's a wrap.

I don't think we truly have what went down there. I have repeatedly stated that Ned is truly disturbed at the events that occurred at the ToJ. Martin is aware of the "information age" we live in and has discussed it at length in a number of interviews. The old codger has something up his sleeve folks. Whether you like it or not.

Just sayin :devil:

GRRM has also said in interviews, that he does not let the openions of fans change is writing. And he has said he doesn't read these forums

[Tree Warg]

GRRM has also said in interviews, that he does not let the openions of fans change is writing. And he has said he doesn't read these forums

I never suggested that he would change anything. Nor do I think he will.

[Tree Warg]

I am suggesting exactly what I have said all along. That Lyanna didn't die from childbirth complications and there is a LOT more to what happened at the ToJ. The build up isn't who his parents are folks. The build is what happened and why.

Maybe we will even get lucky and GRRM will live long enough to write a "Harrenhal" book..... :eek:

[corbon]

If everyone here is convinced of whom Jon's parents are & what happened at the ToJ, then why are we here speculating? More to my point; Could it really be this cut and dry? I have thrown out a possible suicide theory & a kinslayer theory and both were routinely refuted. So, why is everyone here? From what I've read on this thread, it's a wrap.

Mostly because occasionally people like you come up with wierd theories (or more often, there are newcomers who just haven't understood it all yet). We all keep looking here just in case someone has a weird theory that doesn't fall down under scrutiny although nearly all, like yours, don't actually fit the known data well (and hence get routinely refuted) - hey, that's why they get classified as 'wierd' theories!

Also because nothing is Locked In yet, though in a lot of cases its fairly solid. No one 'knows' exactly how it all went down, so there is some room for wiggle in there in quite a few places. So long as the wiggle fits within the known data it becomes interesting and worth discussing.

And often its just to help noobs who are genuinely enquiring because they haven't fit the data together themselves (or read The Tower of the Hand site or the Citadel FAQ or other places where the data points have been collated and laid out for people).

[corbon]

I am suggesting exactly what I have said all along. That Lyanna didn't die from childbirth complications and there is a LOT more to what happened at the ToJ. The build up isn't who his parents are folks. The build is what happened and why.

Its still a 'wierd theory'. It's all very well to say 'Lyanna didn't die from complications of childbirth', but there are a bunch of data points that combine to indicate very strongly that she did.

Lyanna had a fever when Ned found her.

Lyanna died in Ned's arms shortly after.

Lyanna was found in a 'bed of blood'.

The term 'bed of blood' is used several times elsewhere to describe childbirth.

We pretty much all agree that there was a lot more going on at ToJ than the limited data points we have.

However a relatvely complete picture can be constructed that carefully fits all the data points, both immediately at the scene and before and after (such as characterisation, past and future actions, motivations etc).

If you construct a different picture that doesn't fit all the data points, then it will not be considered as valid by the general population of forumites. If your construct does fit all the data points, then it will be considered a viable alternative. But there are a lot of secondary data points to fit.