Heresy 3

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Euron's horn is said to have come from Valyria, so my assumption was that there would originally have been dozens, or more, of these horns knocking around in the valyrian empire.

Maybe not dozens, but at least one for each dragonlord family. (and we don't know how many families in Valyria could control dragons.)

[Eyron]

I agree. We only really "know" of the two times - the Long Night and the most recent reappearance of the White Walkers, but it stands to reason that these White Walkers may have shown up at other times as well, particularly during long, harsh winters. There is that story about Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark, great-grandson of Edrick Snowbeard, who swept the slavers out of the Wolf's Den in White Harbor. It is said that he came during a long, cruel winter - so cold that the "White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle around their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them." There is something about this story that makes me think Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark had marshalled the powers of winter somehow, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few White Walkers were stalking around north of the Wall at this time. The wildlings, at least, have always burned their dead, right? If the White Walkers had truly lain dormant from the end of the Long Night up until just a few years ago - a period of something like 8000 years - you would think that things like burial customs might have diverged and evolved from clan to clan. Also, the sense is that the wildlings are fearful of the White Walkers, but not surprised by them. If they had been gone for millenia, would they have remained such a present part of the wildling "cultural consciousness"? (there's probably a better word for this)

he he, I see when I read your previous post yet again, I misunderstood your meaning, so that is why my answer was a little weird...

I thought you meant that the first appearance of WWs was at some point between the long night and the Andals, so I didn't get your point. With the "first invasion" you obviously meant a hypothetical Valyrian invasion. Sorry!

Now, I totally agree with the WWs appearing many times after the long night, that is why I think the common practices of burning the dead, the Watch's horns (one- two- three blasts) have taken root beyond and at the Wall. Completely agree that the free folk do not seem surprised at the WWs, just fearful, and that is a good sign that the WWs have been present a long time. Why they have not attacked at all the last few thousand years is what is interesting. What made them seize the moment now?

The story of Brandon Ice eyes is really interesting, I like the idea that he could have been more "icey" than we might think, and that he was not bothered by the cold as the rest of the men is a good hint that some Starks (maybe all) are really closely connected to winter and can use it for their purposes somehow.

As RevengeOfTheStarks says above, supposedly at the time of the Night's King the free folk buried their dead in burrows like the northmen at that time, and that have made me think that the white cold that raises the dead was not a problem this time.

It might be the story is wrong about Joramun, but I think the wights are something that had not appeared at that time. Or maybe the free folk and Mance was wrong about Joramuns grave, maybe he had none and the graves they found were even earlier people's. It seems to me though that the WWs have been present on and off in the north, but that the wights only come during very special circumstances, during the long night for example and perhaps when the Andals came, and at present time.

As I have said before, I think the white cold is the major problem to deal with, and either the WWs are a part of this problem perhaps as the creators behind it and the wights, or they are unrelated to it but take advantage of the cold to become stronger. So far it seems to me they are strongly connected to it and that they are the driving force behind the wights.

Yeah, the utter silence about any such invasion or attempt at invasion is problematic. The Night's King was supposedly "stricken from memory", but even so, we know of him. The timeline is tricky, too -- although if we put the Andal invasion up at 4000 BL, rather than at its current 6000 BL, there's a bit more room there for a Valyrian appearance in Westeros before the Andals arrived.

I do think it is possible, but my feeling is that if they tried an invasion before the Andals came there would be information about it, if it was important. I think it does not really matter if they tried an invasion or if they sent investigators that came back to strongly advise against it, the main point is the same - they could not (or would not) conquer Westeros.

The Valyrians may have had a part in Hardhome. The cataclysm there happened around 600 years ago, right? The fact that the flames at Hardhome were said to burn so high and hot as to be able to be seen for miles makes me think that the fire there was not a natural fire. Whether it was dragonfire, though, or something else? But that said, Hardhome is too recent to solve the problem of Valyrian steel showing up in Westeros thousands of years ago. Ice has been in the Stark family longer than 600 years, right?

About Hardhome, I do feel something significant happened there, and we know it involved fire. It could be from magic, dragons or wildfire perhaps. Or perhaps Hardhome was built on a hot spot, it's hard to know since the cold can cover the fact that there are fissures underground, and as in the mountains of Valyria there could be fire creatures there.

Tze had an interesting theory about the significance of Hardhome here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53616-adwd-spoilers-hardhome/page__view__findpost__p__2585903

Lurking in the back of my mind was a thought there was a very early reference to White Walkers in AGoT and sure enough its in Tyrion 3 (three chapters before Old Nan's tale) when Mormont and Maester Aemon are urging Tyrion to use his influence to get more men sent to the Wall, because:

"the darkness is coming... The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

I'm sure White Walker is the term used by people in the remote north (even south of the Wall in places like Skagos and the hill clans perhaps), and people in the Watch have probably been influenced from it, and in the case here it could well be that the speaker repeated the words he had heard or read, as the fisherfolk would call them White Walkers. I still feel it's nothing to do with our choice of words, it's an in-world semantic problem. And so far we have seen nothing to point to it being a problem in-world, the only case with a CotF (may be believed to be CotF by the southerners she hangs out with) south of the Wall is the woods witch and nobody calls her an Other. It may have been a problem historically in the First Men-Andal conflicts, or point to the North (south of the Wall) having bent to the Andal mind-set and views in part, but I don't fell like it is significant in present time.

If a brother of the Watch sees a CotF, would he sound three blasts? Maybe, but probably not since they look like human children from a distance, as when Bran thinks he sees Arya in the mouth of the cave. When he gets close he sees her skin and eyes and realises she is not human. The WWs are easily recognised, tall, ice blue piercing eyes, swordlike weapons, and that is what the brothers are expecting and keeping watch for, and the wights are also easy to spot. So even if the Watch initially after Andal involvement used three blasts to announce all sorts of "others" it is not a problem at the moment, they have now seen giants and mammoths and know the difference between them and White Walkers, they include them in the wildling group. The rest of the south may become involved later which could call for a lesson in semantics, but the term Children of the forest seem to be cemented so I'm not sure there will be any confusion even it it was in the past.

[Black Crow]

Lurking in the back of my mind was a thought there was a very early reference to White Walkers in AGoT and sure enough its in Tyrion 3 (three chapters before Old Nan's tale) when Mormont and Maester Aemon are urging Tyrion to use his influence to get more men sent to the Wall, because:

"the darkness is coming...

Returning to this one, I think what struck me most about it was the casualness of it all. Mormont is unquestionably worried and losing sleep over what's happening beyond the Wall, but the bit about White Walkers sounds more like a sign rather than the danger itself;

"The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore" isn't really a "shut the gates and lock up your daughters - the white walkers are coming!" sort of moment. Its just part of a pattern; things are moving and the white walkers are only a part of it. It tells Mormont things might be getting serious, but its like saying the usual patrols are getting reinforced by regular troops. In other words Mormont is worried about the Others, but the White Walkers are only part of what he's facing, they're not the one and only Others.

This is consistent with what we ourselves have seen; they're more like scouts and harbingers than the real threat coming behind.

[Black Crow]

And then just to complicate things a little further, here's Sam on the Fist:

Sam in Samwell 1 ASoS:

"The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy,"

So Sam, way down south, is told bed-time stories about the white walkers of the wood, long before he comes up to the Wall.

[Eyron]

The[ fact that Sam's sources say that normal steel is ineffective against WW while the FM in Westeros had only bronze (and probably iron) is a discrepancy, but there is no need to reinvent the entire timeline to account for it. Here are some simple ways to explain the passages Sam found.

Well, I didn't use the discrepancy to reinvent the timeline I only said that to me that is proof that the Andals had fought the Others too after they arrived. I wrote that the Others must have come again after the long night. The rest of the post you quoted clears this up I think, but I'm sorry if my writing is not very clear sometimes. As I say further down in that post the Andals could have had access to Valyrian swords since the Valyrian freehold already existed when the Andals came to Westeros. That timeline is not in question, it was 6000 or so years ago, so no need to reinvent anything, the Andals came to Westeros at that time, most probably soon after.

2) After the Andals arrived, bringing steel with them and making it available to the NW, there were isolated encounters during short winters with WW that we haven't been told of.

That was my point. But I think there was a more large scale battle at some point. That steel shatter at contact with the Others swords is a correct fact suggest to me that there are accurate accounts of this happening, which implies that this happened after Andal arrival, who brought steel to Westeros.

During the long night (8000 years ago) I would think meteoric iron could have been used (like it was by indigenous people and during bronze age in real world) since it is so much easier to process, perhaps even wrought iron (but I agree with Lummel that it is not likely they had that yet), but not steel.

I find any of these explanations more likely than any proposition that it was actually the Andals that fought the Others in the BftD, instead of the FM.

That is not what I suggested, sorry for being unclear. I mean that the the battle for dawn was the fight against the Others that happened when the Andals had arrived. I don't think the battle for dawn occured during the long night, when there was no Watch, no Wall and the last hero sought out the Children all alone with his shattered blade. I think the last hero made peace happen in some other fashion.

Later when the Andals arrived there was another battle, steel was used, and that is what have been called the battle for dawn, I think. So I'm not moving the battles around timewise, I still think there was a battle in the long night, Old Nan said men suffered terrible losses, but I don't think the last hero turned the battle around suddenly slaying the Others with dragonglass, instead he forged peace. That endured until the Andals came when no such thing was possible anymore, and whatever traditions the First Men had to keep the peace was not tolerated by the Andals.

[Black Crow]

I mean that the the battle for dawn was the fight against the Others that happened when the Andals had arrived. I don't think the battle for dawn occured during the long night, when there was no Watch, no Wall and the last hero sought out the Children all alone with his shattered blade. I think the last hero made peace happen in some other fashion.

Later when the Andals arrived there was another battle, steel was used, and that is what have been called the battle for dawn, I think. So I'm not moving the battles around timewise, I still think there was a battle in the long night, Old Nan said men suffered terrible losses, but I don't think the last hero turned the battle around suddenly slaying the Others with dragonglass, instead he forged peace. That endured until the Andals came when no such thing was possible anymore, and whatever traditions the First Men had to keep the peace was not tolerated by the Andals.

:agree:

[Lummel]

Tze had an interesting theory about the significance of Hardhome here: http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2585903

That business with the faceless men links back to the idea of the Boltons' flaying being an attempt to imitate the Starks' warging...Although I'm not sure about the Valyrian conquest bit, I could believe in a slave raid gone badly wrong but a conquest attempt...

Sam in Samwell 1 ASoS:

"The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy,"

So Sam, way down south, is told bed-time stories about the white walkers of the wood, long before he comes up to the Wall.

ok. Good spot.

I don't think the battle for dawn occured during the long night, when there was no Watch, no Wall and the last hero sought out the Children all alone with his shattered blade. I think the last hero made peace happen in some other fashion.

Later when the Andals arrived there was another battle, steel was used, and that is what have been called the battle for dawn, I think. So I'm not moving the battles around timewise, I still think there was a battle in the long night, Old Nan said men suffered terrible losses, but I don't think the last hero turned the battle around suddenly slaying the Others with dragonglass, instead he forged peace. That endured until the Andals came when no such thing was possible anymore, and whatever traditions the First Men had to keep the peace was not tolerated by the Andals.

I'm not sure that we have any idea of when the battle for the dawn was fought. It's associated with this Azor Ahai person who is legendary in the East, who could be the Blue Falcon hero (nod to Eira) of the Arryn Andals, who might have married into the Daynes (probably a First Man family, nod to Ran) and left them his magic sword as an heirloom - all of which is hugely speculative. That could date the battle for the Dawn to the early Andal days, possibly the period when the Andals broke out of the Vale?

Then there is Bran's song. If that's associated with the same event then we know that the Nights Watch was involved. If they rode out to battle then it probably was not in a long winter type situation. If Sam's short count of Lord Commanders of the watch is correct then the battle has to take place after circa 5092 BL (or what ever the exact figure would be). Digression, I am an idiot, total rethink of Sams list:

Average 8 year duration of each Lord commanders (LC) reign.

Jon Snow is LC 998 therefore (998x8) the Nights Watch was founded in the year 7984 before present (BP) or circa 7684 before Aegon's landing (BL)

Sams short list has 674 LCs therefore it was written circa 5392 BP / circa 5092 BL or 2592 years ago

as Sam says "during", something that happened 2592 years ago must be significant and must be something that Sam would expect a Maester educated Child who grew up in a Lordly household to know. What could that be? The Andal explosion out of the Vale? The Rise of Valyria? Something else?

Anyhow, digression over, if the Nights Watch existed at the time of the Battle, then the battle must have taken place after circa 7984 BP, but probably before 2592 BP (when we know there are written records) which as I'm sure you'll all agree very helpfully narrows down the possible date of the battle to a mere 5000 year period. Makes King Arthur look historically accurate by comparison!

Edited for spelling

[Black Crow]

I'm still inclined to put it during the Andal period and explaining why the Children didn't linger in the North after they were burned out of the south by the Andals. The apparent lack of an Andal source isn't a problem at all.

King Arthur’s actually a very good example. If we compare current Westeros with Britain, then in the 14^th century we have Geoffrey of Monmouth’s history confidently telling of Arthur’s deeds a thousand years before, yet when we look at the actual historical record there’s next to nothing.

Now if we translate ourselves back to Westeros, just because the Andals could read and write it doesn’t necessarily follow that their records are complete and accurate. We do know that they slaughtered the Children in the south, but there doesn’t appear to be a specific record of the Battle for the Dawn; but that can easily be down to two factors: first that they know about it under a different name, which is very common, for example the first major battle of the American Civil War is variously known as Manassass or Bull Run. We could have exactly the same thing here with the bards singing poetically of the Battle for the Dawn, while the historians more accurately record it as the battle of Widow Twankey’s Farm. The other factor to bear in mind is that if it was fought by the Night’s Watch and their then Wildling allies under Joruman, then it was fought in the Northlands outside the Andal jurisdiction; not one of their glorious victories, and probably not much known about either

[hotweaselsoup]

About Hardhome, I do feel something significant happened there, and we know it involved fire. It could be from magic, dragons or wildfire perhaps. Or perhaps Hardhome was built on a hot spot, it's hard to know since the cold can cover the fact that there are fissures underground, and as in the mountains of Valyria there could be fire creatures there.

Tze had an interesting theory about the significance of Hardhome here: http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2585903

Interesting link from Tze, thank you for sharing that!

Regarding the graves that Mance was opening in his attempt to find the Horn of Winter - why do I have it in my mind that these were giants' graves? I tried to search through the books to find confirmation, but I couldn't find anything (my search terms may have been wrong). Am I mistaken in this assumption? Was he opening the barrows of men, not giants?

And thanks to those who cleared me up about Ice. Very interesting that the sword has only been in the family for 400 years or so - I had thought many years longer. I like the idea the the original Ice may have been a crystal sword like those wielded by the White Walkers. If it turned out to be susceptible to dragonsteel, I can see why the Starks may have wanted to replace it!

[Eyron]

Returning to this one, I think what struck me most about it was the casualness of it all. Mormont is unquestionably worried and losing sleep over what's happening beyond the Wall, but the bit about White Walkers sounds more like a sign rather than the danger itself; "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore" isn't really a "shut the gates and lock up your daughters - the white walkers are coming!" sort of moment. Its just part of a pattern; things are moving and the white walkers are only a part of it. It tells Mormont things might be getting serious, but its like saying the usual patrols are getting reinforced by regular troops. In other words Mormont is worried about the Others, but the White Walkers are only part of what he's facing, they're not the one and only Others. This is consistent with what we ourselves have seen; they're more like scouts and harbingers than the real threat coming behind.

Very interesting observation. I completely agree with your interpretation. There is something coming besides the White Walkers, and I agree they look like scouts.

And then just to complicate things a little further, here's Sam on the Fist: Sam in Samwell 1 ASoS: "The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy," So Sam, way down south, is told bed-time stories about the white walkers of the wood, long before he comes up to the Wall.

hm, maybe there is a wildling nanny-service in Westeros? ;) Sam's thoughts could point to the terms being interchangeable, both north and south. Or that the Others encompass the white walkers, the cold shadows and the monsters of the tales.

That business with the faceless men links back to the idea of the Boltons' flaying being an attempt to imitate the Starks' warging...Although I'm not sure about the Valyrian conquest bit, I could believe in a slave raid gone badly wrong but a conquest attempt...

Yeah I'm not sure what to think either about that hypothetical invasion, but something is up with Hardhome in any case. It has the same mysterious air that the Nightfort has, terror-stories, ghosts, all around you-don't-want-to-go-there-I-tell-you feel to it. And I'm sure there is a good reason for it in both cases, either to keep people away or that there really is something dangerous there. If it was a regular slave-raid gone bad - What the hell happened? How did it end up burning the whole town alive? To me it looks like two forces clashed violently, but there was magic involved so the bang was a little louder than usual.

I'm not sure that we have any idea of when the battle for the dawn was fought. It's associated with this Azor Ahai person who is legendary in the East, who could be the Blue Falcon hero (nod to Eira) of the Arryn Andals, who might have married into the Daynes (probably a First Man family, nod to Ran) and left them his magic sword as an heirloom - all of which is hugely speculative. That could date the battle for the Dawn to the early Andal days, possibly the period when the Andals broke out of the Vale?

Agree it's all up in the air right now, but I really liked the notion we discussed earlier about the Andals as religious fundamentalist invaders, it fits so well with the Warrior's sons and the stars painted (carved?) on their chests and that holy attitude the new high septon has. The holy war scenario feels right. The "Battle for the Dawn" sound like a romanticized version of something really ugly, the way that most wars are fluffed and groomed in front of the public eye even to this day, so I think there could be a covered truth there. Since the Andals never invaded the north I wonder where the battle for dawn was and when the Andals were incorporated in the Watch. How did the Watch function back then? So many questions... And maybe it's futile to even try to figure it out :D

as Sam says "during", something that happened 2592 years ago must be significant and must be something that Sam would expect a Maester educated Child who grew up in a Lordly household to know. What could that be? The Andal explosion out of the Vale? The Rise of Valyria? Something else? Anyhow, digression over, if the Nights Watch existed at the time of the Battle, then the battle must have taken place after circa 7984 BP, but probably before 2592 BP (when we know there are written records) which as I'm sure you'll all agree very helpfully narrows down the possible date of the battle to a mere 5000 year period. Makes King Arthur look historically accurate by comparison!

:lmao: Good job Lummel! Very helpful indeed.

But I didn't really have the feeling Sam meant that something important happened when the list he found was written, but it would make sense since Jon shut him up. That type of thing seems to happen when important stuff is about to be revealed prematurely...

[FanTasy]

Lurking in the back of my mind was a thought there was a very early reference to White Walkers in AGoT and sure enough its in Tyrion 3 (three chapters before Old Nan's tale) when Mormont and Maester Aemon are urging Tyrion to use his influence to get more men sent to the Wall, because:

"the darkness is coming... The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

Thank you, I was looking for this particular passage.

[hotweaselsoup]

They undoubtedly did at one time. Dany explicitly states that the Valyians controlled dragons with spells and horns, and doesn't mention any alternatives for the Targs. Since dragons were the key to Targ superiority in Westeros, those horns would have been ultra-high security items. They were probably kept on Dragonstone, and are still there, hidden in some magical way. (Along with a few dragon eggs, perhaps.)

Maybe so. But it still stands that Daenerys doesn't need the horn to ride Drogon. She doesn't control him perfectly - she hasn't had much time to train him, and has no Dragon Training Manual to consult - but she does manage to figure out how to turn him where she wants him to go (some of the time, anyway): "When she whipped her silver mare on her right flank the mare went left, for a horse's first instinct is to flee from danger. When she laid the whip across Drogon's right side he veered right, for a dragon's first instinct is always to attack." So, the sense from this is that she is starting to learn how to control him, despite not having a "sorcerous horn", and having to make do "with a word and a whip".

That said, the passage goes on to say: "Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned." So the question here is, is he only half-trained, and is that why he ignores her commands at times? Or is this headstrong quality innate to dragons, and full control of them is only possible through a dragonbinding horn? I'm leaning towards the former - I think the Targaryens figured out a way to bond with their dragons that did away with the need to break them with spells and horns* - but the latter is of course a possibility as well.

*House Targaryen, Dragon Whisperers! :lol:

ETA: I'm with Eira in that I think the dragons are both the power and the curse of House Targaryen, and that their "special bond" with the dragons probably involves the sacrifice of their own unborn children. I see the Targaryens and their dragons as parallels to the Starks and "their" White Walkers, with the White Walkers also perhaps being both the power and the curse of House Stark.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Just a thought about what happened at Hardhome. What if this event awakened the Others (or the whatever behind the Others) for the first time in centuries/millenia? It could have taken them that long to find and awaken others to make an attempt at invading south now.

And I like that Hardhome theory.

[FanTasy]

So Sam, way down south, is told bed-time stories about the white walkers of the wood, long before he comes up to the Wall.

Nice catch. Maybe Sam's mother told him the same stories as Nan told Bran. And to Tyrion were told the stories about the grumkins and snarks?

About the snarks. Weren't they described in Alice in Wonderland as creatures that were elusive in their appearane, that you didn't know how they looked like because they coold look different from anything you could conceive? Other?

[Free Northman]

This topic still going? My goodness.

And the theories are certainly not growing less outlandish, from what I could see by quickly scrolling through this last page. Far from it.

Brandon Ice Eyes was just a guy with Roose Bolton colored eyes, chaps. Not some hybrid Other who conferred his "magical cold resistance" to the entire army who crept down the White Knife and slaughtered the Slavers at White Harbor.

Jeepers people. Enough with the "Starks are related to the Others" theories. This is so contrary to the story that's been told for the last 5 books that it astounds me that people give it any validity whatsoever.

[Eyron]

Regarding the graves that Mance was opening in his attempt to find the Horn of Winter - why do I have it in my mind that these were giants' graves? I tried to search through the books to find confirmation, but I couldn't find anything (my search terms may have been wrong). Am I mistaken in this assumption? Was he opening the barrows of men, not giants?

Huh, now that you mention it, I had that impression to when I read it... I think someone (Ygritte?) said something about the horn probably being a regular giants horn, found in a giants grave, but I'm not sure and I can't check at the mo unfortunately. But that thought leads me back to the idea that Joramun was a giant of course :wideeyed:

And thanks to those who cleared me up about Ice. Very interesting that the sword has only been in the family for 400 years or so - I had thought many years longer. I like the idea the the original Ice may have been a crystal sword like those wielded by the White Walkers. If it turned out to be susceptible to dragonsteel, I can see why the Starks may have wanted to replace it!

I also thought they had it longer, four hundred years is the blink of an eye in this story really. I still wonder about how they got it, was it a royal gift for yielding to the Targaryens perhaps?

[hotweaselsoup]

This topic still going? My goodness.

And the theories are certainly not growing less outlandish, from what I could see by quickly scrolling through this last page. Far from it.

Brandon Ice Eyes was just a guy with Roose Bolton colored eyes, chaps. Not some hybrid Other who conferred his "magical cold resistance" to the entire army who crept down the White Knife and slaughtered the Slavers at White Harbor.

Jeepers people. Enough with the "Starks are related to the Others" theories. This is so contrary to the story that's been told for the last 5 books that it astounds me that people give it any validity whatsoever.

Thank you, Maester Luwin ;)

[Free Northman]

Thank you, Maester Luwin ;)

Hehe. Not quite Maester Luwin.

But seriously, unless the Others turn out to be the good guys, they ain't gonna be related to the Starks. That's not what this story is about.

[Eyron]

I thought the story was about inner conflict, being torn between family and your duty, about the shades of darkness within us all that we must fight - or surrender to.

The whole story sometimes feel like the question about if it's right to kill one man to possibly save the many. The end of things is never known so we must decide in every moment what kind of person we are. *cough*gollum*cough*

The Starks have been too good so far (except Arya, the little she-wolf), and even Ned fears the old Kings of Winter in their tombs, why then is it so hard to picture the Starks of the past as less than good? It does not colour the people we are reading about, it's just their family history if so.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

That is not what I suggested, sorry for being unclear. I mean that the the battle for dawn was the fight against the Others that happened when the Andals had arrived. I don't think the battle for dawn occured during the long night, when there was no Watch, no Wall and the last hero sought out the Children all alone with his shattered blade. I think the last hero made peace happen in some other fashion.

I may not have been too clear about what I understood others thought. Sorry if I misrepresented anyone's views. But I really think that the Battle for the Dawn had to be a/the battle at the end of the Long Night- why else would it be called the "Battle for the Dawn"? If the Night's Watch was involved, it would have just been formed. It won the battle, then manned the Wall when it was built.

We pretty much know how the Andal Invasion ended- the FM were allies of the CotF against the Andals, and held off many attacks at the Neck once the CotF called down the Hammer of the Waters. (the use of the HotW was only partially successful- it probably created the bogs at the Neck. It was probably dry land before that.) I don't see how any part of that could be called the Battle for the Dawn. And since the FM were allied to the CotF, they wouldn't have called them Others. There were no Others involved in the fight against the Andals, at least from the FM perspective.