kissdbyfire Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 more laterLooking forward to it! I think it's possible, but I think it would have had to happen before the Andals invaded Westeros... Isn't it said somewhere that the invading Andals had the Seven's star painted (and even carved into) their chests or something to that effect? If so, the splitting must have happened before they invaded Westeros, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Running through the cast list at the back of ADWD we find the letter Z is very common in Ghiscari names generally and sometimes other similar letter combinations and sounds appear:Skahaz; Grazdar; Qezza, Mezzara; Azzak; Bhakaz; Dhazzar; Galazza; Grazdam and most striking of all Hizdahr (of ancient lineage). There's obviously not a positive match here, and of course name forms can change over thousands of years, but Azor Ahai sounds fundamentally GhiscariYeah, that jumped out at me too. Also, though, there are the Lhazareen (the Lamb Men) ---> which makes me think of Nazarene, the Lamb of God, Agnus Dei, Azor Ahai. Plus all the stuff about reborning messiahs and sacrifices...ETA: just thinking off the cuff here - the Azor Ahai prophecy has been around for at least 5000 years, according to Melisandre (I'll dig that reference up later, if I can find it). If the original Azor Ahai was a Lhazar, and if the Lhazar were being persecuted, enslaved by some old empire (Old Ghis, for example), perhaps Azor Ahai was a Moses figure and led his people out of Lhazar? To Asshai? Or, maybe even Valyria? (Weren't the original Valyrians spoken of as shepherds?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yeah, that jumped out at me too. Also, though, there are the Lhazareen (the Lamb Men) ---> which makes me think of Nazarene, the Lamb of God, Agnus Dei, Azor Ahai. Plus all the stuff about reborning messiahs and sacrifices...Ha, nice catch, I associated the Lamb Men as well to 'lambs for the slaughter'. Those poor people are attacked, murdered, raped and taken into slavery by every next khalasar that comes along. And they don't seem prone to defend themselves. In ADWD Dany tries to win them as allies but is told they are not the kind that fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Somehow I don't think the all killing Azor Ahai was a lamb-man, which is why I dodn't include them in my quickie comparison list. Ghis sounds far more like it...Otherwise I look forward to anything further Mrazy picks up on the possible R'hllor/Seven linkage, particularly given the red star bleeding bit of the prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrazny Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Isolating the Chapters to focus on...Brienne's run in with the eventual High Septon. He strikes me as more to the roots of the Seven, or at least as far back as the traditions of the Faith Militant.Cersei's imprisonment chapters and the Walk of ShameDavos Chapters interacting with Mel. (i do need to work out how bastardized Mel is as a Rh'lor viewpoint. Asshai'i are described as Dark and solemn aren't they? Mel's description is incredibly unique, but with how pale she's presented, I'm leaning Qartheen. But were the Qartheen red-haired at all? Though of course how much of her appearance is pure manufactured glamor is up in the air.)Sam's time in BraavosArya's chapters in BraavosAll Tyrion ADWD chaptersMel's POVVictarion's with MoqorroAnd I'm weighting the symbols and focus of what's revealed in Tyrion's chapters the most relevant. Tyrion is one of our primary story gateways from the beginning. His chapters in ADWD are a little meandering, and I just have my doubt this was just a bad mix and decision making by GRRM after rewriting for 5 years. He needed to have Tyrion be shown what he was shown, either for Tyrion's sake or ours. Ghoyan Drohe, the Rhoyne, Volantis, the legend of Hugor Hill, and Tyrion being the clever one that pieces together what's important...Second most weight I'm actually giving Arya. She's on a journey and is by far the most "lost" of the characters, but at the same time she's not without her own agency. Combined with Braavos being the most melting pot location of all, I'm hoping something pops out there. If the Temple of Black and White apply to AA, the Last Hero, The Long Night, and the War for the Dawn, it would seemingly support whether these are mirror images of similar conflicts, or perhaps both legends and events are based on the same source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrazny Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Just a few things to also look into...AFFC prologue, Sam's landing there...Oldtown is probably a good bastion of keys to the past. It's too much of a stretch to say Griffin's equal Harpy's, but I do want to look at it. Where id the term Seneschal come from for the CItadel if not some Ghiscari thing, or Old Ghis taking it from the same base culture that the Maesters took it from.Hightower's have a Flame at the top of a White Tower. Obviously it could just be a simple Lighthouse reference and symbol for knowledge, but Oldtown is at the center of a bay. They wouldn't be know for their Lighthouses as much as the towns along the true coastline. So possible hint of a Rh'lor like influence? very weak thus far, but Oldtown is also home to the only described Temple of Rh'lor in Westeros, isn't it. I'll see if i can find more than random stabs based on house sigils... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Black Crow, nice connection to the Ghiscari!Fantasy, I like the idea of the east-west line of division, I think so too because of the migration patterns and the references to Westeros as the lands of sunset (who said that?).If we are discussing the Andal invasion in relevance to Azor Ahai, what do we know about the first Andal settler? It was Artys Arryn I think.Their house motto is As high as honour. Look at those word for a moment. Ashigh ashonor... ashai ashonor... ahai ashor? ;)As I said before azor means goshawk in spanish. They have a falcon on their arms, falcons and goshawks are easily mixed up, some falcons were thought to be hawks a long time.Azor as in azur means sky blue, the Arryns arms is sky blue.At last I also found a meaning to the word Ahai, in the Telugu language: http://www.marathidi...63&lang=Marathi"the glow of fire"I know I'm probably overdoing things but it's fun!Oh and about harpys, they are more like sphinx's. Man/woman/animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynes-of-Castermere Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Just a few things to also look into...AFFC prologue, Sam's landing there...Oldtown is probably a good bastion of keys to the past. It's too much of a stretch to say Griffin's equal Harpy's, but I do want to look at it. Where id the term Seneschal come from for the CItadel if not some Ghiscari thing, or Old Ghis taking it from the same base culture that the Maesters took it from.Hightower's have a Flame at the top of a White Tower. Obviously it could just be a simple Lighthouse reference and symbol for knowledge, but Oldtown is at the center of a bay. They wouldn't be know for their Lighthouses as much as the towns along the true coastline. So possible hint of a Rh'lor like influence? very weak thus far, but Oldtown is also home to the only described Temple of Rh'lor in Westeros, isn't it. I'll see if i can find more than random stabs based on house sigils...Hmmm, as a merchant navy navigation officer I can assure you that a Lighthouse in a bay like Oldtown's would be essential for navigating in and out in clear visibility and fog. It would provide references for clearing bearings (google them if you really like ;) )But anyway, like the links between the symbols and lexicography of Westeros and the Disputed Lands... They are linked by the Doom and Aegon and that would lead to a criss-cross of mythology just as we have.Look into Mithras the Roman God and you will see many parallels with modern Christianity. Also dates familiar to us all, April Fools Day, Christmas, Halloween etc all have roots in multiple pagan cultures and are used to cover up the past. Applying this to ASOIAF could lead to some interesting between-the-lines discussions....If you find any others please let us know!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I have read all of these threads and love them! All of you are brilliant. If none of these disscusions happen it still has been enlightening to think of these things. It's fun while we wait. A couple of questions and thoughts. The Long Night was around 8000 years ago (maybe) Azor Ahai was around 8000 years ago (maybe) and The Prince That Was Promised prophecy originated around 5000 years ago (maybe) I'm just trying to have this close to what we are told, let me know. So this should mean AA was 2000 years before the Andals invaded Westeros. Also was TPTWP a Targaryen prophecy? Do we know the origins? I think that could mean the Targaryens knew about AA, the only ones in Weseros? I don't have a revelation, just curious.Another thought process, so the First Men crossed the Arm of Dorne because of no boats right? Then the Arm was shattered, so how did AA arive in Westros 4000 years later? I'm sure he could of had a boat, but I thought it was a big deal the Andals came in boats 6000 years ago. Wouldn't it be memerable if AA came on boats with a foreign crew? Shouldn't there be stories about that? When did the Westerosi first have boats? Surely they would if they saw one for the first time. Again no revelation, just curious.I've had these thoughts and did not know so I thought you all might know some answers. I only had the impression that it was important that the Andals arrived in boats, but I might be wrong. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynes-of-Castermere Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hmmm not sure on that one... Though... Lightbringer was a sword of fire... And Dragonglass could also technically be called Fire-Glass... So maybe Sam is Azor Ahai as he is the first to slay an Other with one??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 A couple of questions and thoughts. The Long Night was around 8000 years ago (maybe) Azor Ahai was around 8000 years ago (maybe) and The Prince That Was Promised prophecy originated around 5000 years ago (maybe) I'm just trying to have this close to what we are told, let me know. So this should mean AA was 2000 years before the Andals invaded Westeros. Also was TPTWP a Targaryen prophecy? Do we know the origins? I think that could mean the Targaryens knew about AA, the only ones in Weseros? I don't have a revelation, just curious.Welcome to the aptly named Heresy thread wherein we try to make sense of stuff...The short answer on the original Azor Ahai is that nobody really knows. The legend as told by Melisandre suggests that he ended the Long Night by defeating the Others in the Battle for the Dawn and therefore there is a respectable body of opinion that he and the Last Hero are one and the same. As you'll gather from the above however some of us are coming to think that he was an Andal crusader and that the Battle for the Dawn was actually the war of extermination waged by the Andals against the Children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 As you'll gather from the above however some of us are coming to think that he was an Andal crusader and that the Battle for the Dawn was actually the war of extermination waged by the Andals against the Children.You know what bugs me with the Battle for the Dawn being a holy crusade against the CotF (and First Men, and the Old Gods)? From what I understood from the text, the Battle for the Dawn was won by the CofT, FM, Old Gods. Or am I missing something? I'm going to search for references to it in all books now, but this has always been my impression. If the BftD was a 'holy' crusade where the Andals defeated the CofT and made the remaining ones flee to the far north, why does Westeros' history (written by the Andals) doesn't reflect this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ah but you see, what some of us are suggesting is that the ending of the Long Winter and the Battle for the Dawn were two different conflicts.We're talking about a very long time ago, when, to quote GRRM, things are a bit "misty".I mentioned before when we were discussing dates how some of the early Biblical kings supposedly lived for hundreds of years (like some of those found by Sam in the stories) and how this is reckoned to have come about with two or more different kings with the same name being mistakenly assumed to be one and the same person.At first sight the ending of the Long Night and the Battle for Dawn logically appear to be connected, but it was a long time ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ah but you see, what some of us are suggesting is that the ending of the Long Winter and the Battle for the Dawn were two different conflicts.We're talking about a very long time ago, when, to quote GRRM, things are a bit "misty".At first sight the ending of the Long Night and the Battle for Dawn logically appear to be connected, but it was a long time ago...Yes, I understood that we're talking about the possibility of the Long Night and the Battle for the Dawn being two separate events, and also that there may be hundreds and thousands of years between the two. I've just searched all 5 books for the words 'battle for the dawn' - it appears only once: ACoK, chapter 21, Bran:"When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking."I'm not saying the information we get here is correct, I understand it can be completely off. The Wiki talks says it was a war between CotF, FM and NW against the WWs, and that the former won. Again, I understand it doesn't mean this is what happened, and that is one of the issues we've been discussing here.http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_for_the_DawnBut my point is why would the invading Andals, whether they were on a holy crusade against the heathen (CotF, FM, NW) or simply trying to escape the ever-hungrier Valyrians, let the record stand as it is? If the BftD was a holy war the Andals fought and won against the CotF et al, why not make it 'official' in their histories? I mean, even if they had lost, why let this legend about the heroism of CotF et al remain as it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I have read all of these threads and love them! All of you are brilliant. If none of these disscusions happen it still has been enlightening to think of these things. It's fun while we wait.(snip)Another thought process, so the First Men crossed the Arm of Dorne because of no boats right? Then the Arm was shattered, so how did AA arive in Westros 4000 years later? I'm sure he could of had a boat, but I thought it was a big deal the Andals came in boats 6000 years ago. Wouldn't it be memerable if AA came on boats with a foreign crew? Shouldn't there be stories about that? When did the Westerosi first have boats? Surely they would if they saw one for the first time. Again no revelation, just curious.I've had these thoughts and did not know so I thought you all might know some answers. I only had the impression that it was important that the Andals arrived in boats, but I might be wrong. Thanks guys.Hello Elaena Targaryen. Thanks!It is not my field but I think that people have been using boats for a long, long time. There probably was always some kind of traffic (people and goods) between Essos and Westeros, even before the continents were divided.If there ever was an actual Azor Ahai on which the eastern legend is based, it does not necessarily have to be someone from the east.It could well be someone from a family that settled long, long ago in Westeros, or someone from an originally First Men descent.As I said in an earlier post the legends of the battle for the dawn (Azor Ahai as hero) and the ending of the Long Night (Last Hero) could be the same.Just re-reading something about the season changes. That made me think there could have been more than one Long Night. It depends I guess on when the disbalance in the seasons began in Westeros.The legend of the Last Hero I think is based on the first time the Others arrived. Didn't Old Nan say that in her tale in AGOT to Bran, "in that darkness the Others came for the first time"?That ending of the first Long Night, with a little help from the Children of the Forest, could be long before Azor Ahai did his battle for the dawn on which the eastern orientated legend is based. This could be a fight to end another long night and against the Others. But it also could be east-west orientated battle.That doesn't mean AA had to be originally somebody from the east. He could have been somebody from a 'native' Westerosi family of First Men descent.Hmm ... not unlike what we see happens in the current ASOIAF with Melisandre. She comes to Westeros (if she really is from Asshai) on a mission and influences the people that live in Westeros and who worship the Seven to reject these gods and become followers of Rhlor.Stannis was raised in the faith of the Seven, but renounced them even before he met Melisandre. He tells Davos that he stopped believing in gods when he witnessed how his parents drowned. Stannis' doesn't believe in R'hlor either, but he is prepared to lead the people who do.The original Azor Ahai could have renounced the Old Gods of his descent and be prepared to lead in the battle of the dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ah but you see, what some of us are suggesting is that the ending of the Long Winter and the Battle for the Dawn were two different conflicts.We're talking about a very long time ago, when, to quote GRRM, things are a bit "misty".I mentioned before when we were discussing dates how some of the early Biblical kings supposedly lived for hundreds of years (like some of those found by Sam in the stories) and how this is reckoned to have come about with two or more different kings with the same name being mistakenly assumed to be one and the same person.At first sight the ending of the Long Night and the Battle for Dawn logically appear to be connected, but it was a long time ago...When history gets "misty", the tendency is for a legend to combine up multiple historical events into fewer events, isn't it? Just like your example of two different kings with the same name getting combined into one 100+ year reign. Or Brandon the Builder getting credit for building every large, old structure in Westeros (the Wall, Winterfell, Storm's End, the White Tower, the Great Golden Outhouse at Casterly Rock, etc...) (Or at least I can't think of any examples to the contrary. Does anyone else have some?)The idea of taking three legendary events - the Pact, the Long Winter/Long Night/BftD, the Andal Invasion - and proposing that they were in some combination only two would buck that trend. (You are still proposing the Pact and the Long Winter are one, but BftD is part of the Andal Invasion, right?) I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but we would need an explanation of why the process of legend formation happened in an abnormal way. It might be better to say four events got reduced to three.I've always assumed that "Long Winter" and Long Night " are synonymous. Maybe someone would like to play around with splitting them up. (I myself still think it was three events.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 If we are discussing the Andal invasion in relevance to Azor Ahai, what do we know about the first Andal settler? It was Artys Arryn I think.Their house motto is As high as honour. Look at those word for a moment. Ashigh ashonor... ashai ashonor... ahai ashor? ;)As I said before azor means goshawk in spanish. They have a falcon on their arms, falcons and goshawks are easily mixed up, some falcons were thought to be hawks a long time.Azor as in azur means sky blue, the Arryns arms is sky blue.That is so appallingly bad that it's the kind of thing that GRRM might do! I'm thinking here of his writing the three stooges in as three servants or the Dallas Cowboys reference in ADWD. The goshwak and blue, I find it really hard to believe that kind of thing is accidental.Also was TPTWP a Targaryen prophecy? Do we know the origins? I think that could mean the Targaryens knew about AA, the only ones in Weseros? I don't have a revelation, just curious.I think the prince who was promised is the prophecy that Rhaegar was influenced by, some other Westerosi seem to be aware of it, Aemon Targaryen and Maester Marwin seem to know it very well. How far it overlaps with, is similar to or related to the Azor Ahai belief is debatable. We know there was a Targaryen prophet before the fall of valyria, if the prince who was promised was one of those prophecies or how far if at all those ancient prophcies influenced to the targaryens to do the strange things they did (like go to dragonstone and then invade Westeros) is up for speculation.Yes, I understood that we're talking about the possibility of the Long Night and the Battle for the Dawn being two separate events, and also that there may be hundreds and thousands of years between the two. I've just searched all 5 books for the words 'battle for the dawn' - it appears only once: ACoK, chapter 21, Bran:"When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking."...But my point is why would the invading Andals, whether they were on a holy crusade against the heathen (CotF, FM, NW) or simply trying to escape the ever-hungrier Valyrians, let the record stand as it is? If the BftD was a holy war the Andals fought and won against the CotF et al, why not make it 'official' in their histories? I mean, even if they had lost, why let this legend about the heroism of CotF et al remain as it is?We haven't seen an Andal history or heard an Andal history. The structure of prehistoric Westerosi history as far as we know it comes from Maester Luwin's child friendly overview history lesson. We don't know how exactly the different bits that we are given here and there fit on to that framework. We don't know how much Maester Luwin knows either, or the citadel even, we don't know if the andals arrived as a literate civilisation, recording chronicles regularly that were incorporated into later histories or really if what is known about the arrival of the andals is an oral tradition that was later recorded like say Saxo Grammaticus or Snorri Sturluson or Herodotus - something that has totaly fantastic elements into as well as some trustworthy information.The Battle of the Dawn song so far doesn't obviously fit into either the Last Hero or Andal invasion story. But if it belongs in the Last Hero jigsaw puzzle then to my mind that implies that the nights watch existed before The Wall was built (or that The Wall doesn't stop the Others) also that the long winter wasn't as bad as Old Nan's story suggests because these guys haven't eaten their horses which also have enough fodder to be ridden.If the song fits into an Andal invasion jigsaw then its a bit odd that it is sung by Northerners who hold true to the weirwood groves and wargs that the andals were destroying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Deleted due to formatting problems - text as below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 An odd thought that occurs to me here is that the Battle for the Dawn song although supposedly referring to a battle against the Others doesn't actually tell us anything about the battle.Remember what Sam found:“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”We know for once that this is reliable because it mirrors both what we saw in the prologue to AGoT and Sam's own experience, but the Battle for the Dawn song doesn't seem to reflect this at all. OK so far as the text goes we don't actually hear anything of what's in it, but what we are told is interesting: "When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking." Its obviously a well-known song, but it sounds as if its an ordinary battle with no mention of fire, cold blades, and the obsidian turning White Walkers into blue puddles.This suggests two things; either the Watch rode bravely out and never came back from a Night that ended much later, or that the Others in question were not White Walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 ..."When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking." Its obviously a well-known song, but it sounds as if its an ordinary battle with no mention of fire, cold blades, and the obsidian turning White Walkers into blue puddles.This suggests two things; either the Watch rode bravely out and never came back from a Night that ended much later, or that the Others in question were not White Walkers.This is from a Bran POV chapter. There's not even a quote from the song, just a description of a passage. ..."the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn" is Bran's mental description of the passage in the song, and to Bran "Others" means WW, wights, or both.So Bran believes the NW fought Others in the BftD. No other conclusions can be drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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