Heresy 3

[Eyron]

Britain did appeal to the Romans; people had been trading tin from Cornwall since Phoenician times and probably before that since somebody must have told the Phoenicians it was there, while there was also thought to be silver in Wales and rumours of gold in Ireland, so again you can draw parallels with Westeros, but it still comes down to economics as in does the return justify the effort and expence of conquering the place. No doubt like the Romans the Valyrians would have gotten around to it eventually, but events, dear boy, events...

In the meantime no dragons would have been necessary to find out, just as the Romans did they will have built up a good enough picture from traders, clients and even spies without resorting to something as obvious as a Zeppelin.

You are right of course, at that time trade would have begun between Westeros and Essos since there were ships... So no dragons needed for someone wanting to spy on Westeros.

I still think something stayed their hand though, since there are so much resources in Westeros besides the gold (and most likely tin), like the forests and the expensive wood. Good for burning and fires, but then again maybe the inland of Essos provided enough.

Quite, I think the point here is that few of the noble houses can claim meaningful descent from Valyrian families, so somebody somewhere along the line bought the family sword as a status symbol. If we suppose that Azor Ahai fought against the Others after the Long Night, wielding this flashy state of the art blade from Valyria, I can easily see the local families wanting one just like it.

:lol:

Probably correct. Valyrian blades = Flashy strollers, no family can do without the best of the best, when your neighbour has one.

[mor2]

I like Hot Weasel Soup's idea of the influence of the targaryen prophecy deciding when they would invade Westeros, but that explains (maybe) why Aegon conquered when he did not why the Valyrians didn't.

Maybe they were like the Romans who conquered the more sophisticated Mediterranean lands first, the places that had taxes, towns and trade networks they could profit off , on the other hand the seven kingdoms of Westeros don't seem to have been a total barbarian waste at the time. Maybe the wars against Ghis took up too much of their dragon power and they didn't have the spare capacity to expand into Westeros?

civil strife is the only theory I could come up with, otherwise the better question is why it took them sooooooooo long to conquer Essos in the first place.

Perhaps it was the events of the Night's King as some have said above in the thread, when the Others returned? Valyrian steel would have been available to a few. How did the houses in Westeros ever get those swords in the first place? Did they trade overseas?

Maybe, but we dont know for sure that the other have returned at that time and back then I'd bet on large stocks of Dragonglass rather than few valyrian swords from baby freehold.

[kissdbyfire]

You are right of course, at that time trade would have begun between Westeros and Essos since there were ships... So no dragons needed for someone wanting to spy on Westeros.

I still think something stayed their hand though, since there are so much resources in Westeros besides the gold (and most likely tin), like the forests and the expensive wood. Good for burning and fires, but then again maybe the inland of Essos provided enough.

:lol

Probably correct. Valyrian blades = Flashy strollers, no family can do without the best of the best, when your neighbour has one.

And iirc, in one SSM or interview somewhere where GRRM says things like, 'yes, some Valyrian steel would have found their way to the hands of smallfolk' (paraphrasing)... For what is's worth. Or, better still, IF worth at all.

[Lummel]

I didn't mean that the Andals won thanks to their "regular" steel, but that they at some point must have fought the Others since there are records saying that the Others weapons shattered steel. As I said in that post, in the paragraph directly below the quote from Black Crow, how could anyone in Westeros know that their weapons shattered steel?

OK, I'm with you now!

Well we only know when the white walkers first appeared (erm, well, we don't exactly but...) in Old Nan's Story. We don't know when they were last dealt with before Royce met them in AGOT. We know it must have been long enough ago that the idea of monsters north of The Wall seems a bit childish, snarks and grumpkins, and Wildlings are thought of as the main enemy, but how long would that shift take to happen? A hundred years? Three hundred? More?

On The Wall everybody seems to know that three blasts on the horn mean Others, so it's not an obscure or laughable notion up there. Maybe the most recent contacts have only been with very small numbers of Others, enough so that people bother to teach newcomers what three blasts on the horn means but not enough to frighten people further South?

On the other hand Rangers are talking with Wildings so quite possibly rumours of the Others from further north help keeps the fear alive on The Wall but not down South?

[Black Crow]

I have to say I'm still of the view that the Others encompass more than just the White Walkers, and include the Children and the "other old races", who were so comprehensively slaughtered and driven out by the Andal crusaders and that if we look at events like the Battle for the Dawn from that perspective a lot of things make a lot more sense.

For example, if the Battle for the Dawn wasn't fought in the bleak midwinter, but saw the Night's Watch, led by a Stark of Winterfell and Joruman of the Wildlings suddenly fall upon the Children and the "other old races" to drive them out of the North and beyond the Wall, then that explains why it was such a glorious victory over the snarks, grumkins and other assorted gooks. Remember Osha hints that they tell things differently up there.

As to the White Walkers, I remain firmly of the belief that they aren't a separate race at all. Quite apart from that bit from Craster's wife about their being his sons, the way that the one Sam stabbed dissolved into a puddle rather than falling over leaking bodily fluids surely indicates a magical construction of some kind, which in turn means someone else is responsible for that magic, whether its a form of warging or something else and that brings us back to the Children... again.

[FanTasy]

I have to say I'm still of the view that the Others encompass more than just the White Walkers, and include the Children and the "other old races", who were so comprehensively slaughtered and driven out by the Andal crusaders and that if we look at events like the Battle for the Dawn from that perspective a lot of things make a lot more sense.

Quite.

I think a clue lies in why GRRM chose to name the Others the 'Others',

To whom or to what are they considered to be other?

This is not a story about aliens, GRRM said so somewhere in an interview.

The second clue lies in the tale of Old Nan to Bran. In her tale she tells about the 'white walkers that move through the wood'. I think she describes the creatures we saw in the prologue.. Bran asks if she means the Others and she agrees to use this term.

Of course 'white walkers' could be a mistake by Nan.

But later on we meet Osha and her party. Again the term 'white walkers' is used. No mentioning of Others here.

Edit: from wikipedia:

Othering is imperative to national identities, where practices of admittance and segregation can form and sustain boundaries and national character. Othering helps distinguish between home and away, the uncertain or certain. It often involves the demonization and dehumanization of groups, which further justifies attempts to civilize and exploit these 'inferior' others.

[mrazny]

Quite.

I think a clue lies in why GRRM chose to name the Others the 'Others',

To whom or to what are they considered to be other?

This is not a story about aliens, GRRM said so somewhere in an interview.

The second clue lies in the tale of Old Nan to Bran. In her tale she tells about the 'white walkers that move through the wood'. I think she describes the creatures we saw in the prologue.. Bran asks if she means the Others and she agrees to use this term.

Of course 'white walkers' could be a mistake by Nan.

But later on we meet Osha and her party. Again the term 'white walkers' is used. No mentioning of Others here.

Edit: from wikipedia:

Othering is imperative to national identities, where practices of admittance and segregation can form and sustain boundaries and national character. Othering helps distinguish between home and away, the uncertain or certain. It often involves the demonization and dehumanization of groups, which further justifies attempts to civilize and exploit these 'inferior' others.

To mingle your and Black Crow's thoughts with some of my own about the difference between the Andals telling and the First Men telling...

The current traditions of the Night's Watch would certainly be askew-ed by Andal terminology. The current or recent watch's use of Others very well could be an Andal original which would include the Children, Giants, White Walkers, etc. I don't think there have to actually be grumpkins and what have you that were killed off to make sense of, there is room for some myths that are entire fabrications.

That said, the children being "other" doesn't necessarily align them with all "others". I'm of a mind there is an unknown source. The Heart of Winter? The Great Other? and I'm not 100% on my feeling about the Children. Their original role with this source could be a part of their great diminishing, same for the Giants. Or the great diminishing is unrelated and there is no positive relationship between the source and the children. If the source can entice mortals with power, it could be the new cursed form that Humans have taken as part of their thirst for power in utilizing the source or dealing with the source.

If all stories have a kernel of truth and we're just trying to reconcile them with real events, we do have the problem of whose authority is reliable. Old Nan seems to have strong support on this thread for sure.

How do people feel about Aemon as far as "getting it right". And how about Marwyn(who does make HARD mention that it's Dragonglass, not obsidian)? Osha? Luwin? We need some keys to use for deciphering, and thus far it has been left to us as to who to take as absolute authority. My gut doesn't help anyone much since i think all of them have some of it right and some of it wrong.

I think Aemon's take is correct that the Prince The Was Promised and Azor Ahai reborn are in fact the same base legend. I'm leaning towards Lightbringer's legend being something else then described. I think it was brighter and shinier than other swords, and melting White Walkers would make people think of it as hot. That doesn't neccesarily mean it WAS hot, or that people couldn't touch it without getting burned. Those details could be coloring throughout the years.

The Rh'lor idea of "the great other" is the hard to reconcile part.

It's singular and godlike much like Rh'lor. It is who AA needs to defeat. It's described as a tangible fight. What the fanatics got right and got wrong is a bit difficult.

If it's conceptual, a battle of faith, that's more in tune with this world. If it's some central puppetmaster great evil, that sounds more god-realm and not a real singular sitting on a throne person. But AA is some tangible singular person supposedly, except the dragon has three heads and yadayadayada. We have White Walkers, we don't have the central White Walker. Are they just servants of some Old God, are they servants of THE Old Gods? The specifics of the Rh'lor faith don't apply directly to the known world yet. So at least some of the aspects of the Rh'lor legends seem to be more grandiose versions of the actual events truth.

Decompressing the many into one direction that the Rh'lor legend goes, the application to Westeros sounds like the Seven versus the Old Gods.

[FanTasy]

The Others could be named Others because they were seen as not human. That would include - in the vision of the ones who felt threatened:

- the giants

- the children of the forest

- wights

- white walkers

- ice spiders

That would give some explanation for it being a generic term and why there is a specific horn signal for when 'Others' are seen by the Night's Watch.

Others could also mean:

- who is not like us, us being First Men

- who is not like us, us being Andals

- who is not like us, us being the Red Lot

Interestingly Melisandre sees the 'Great Other' as the other great force, opponent to her R'hlor.

[Lummel]

Agreed FanTasy, that Others is used as a generic term. Deliberately and deliciously vague it leads us to assume that the Others are now and have always been hostile and that the Others are the White Walkers.

I'm sure this has been suggested before but if the nights watch were originally rangers of the arboreal frontier then presumably the signals originally meant 1 blast humans, 2 blasts brother and 3 blasts Other - but meaning chiefly children of the forest.

Mrazny,

Clues for deciphering? Don't know. But we do get warnings in the text about the unreliability of information and narrators. Best to follow littlefingers advice and trust none of them maybe?

[hotweaselsoup]

You are right of course, at that time trade would have begun between Westeros and Essos since there were ships... So no dragons needed for someone wanting to spy on Westeros. I still think something stayed their hand though, since there are so much resources in Westeros besides the gold (and most likely tin), like the forests and the expensive wood. Good for burning and fires, but then again maybe the inland of Essos provided enough. :lol: Probably correct. Valyrian blades = Flashy strollers, no family can do without the best of the best, when your neighbour has one.

So, remind me again why we think, somewhere back in the misty mists of unwritten time, that the Valyrians didn't try to invade Westeros? If we place this first invasion (and subsequent defeat by the CotF/the Others/the King of Winter/the forces of ice -- pick your adversary) sometime after the Long Night but before the Andal invasion, would it not explain the existence of some leftover Valyrian blades in Westeros? Our Stark victor could have looted Ice from a slain dragonlord! (I like this notion better than Mr. Stark haggling for the blade at some bazaar in Essos, during his continental tour.) Moreover, an aborted Valyrian invasion could also explain why Mance's horn looks so much like Euron's horn - maybe because they are BOTH dragonbinding horns, and the former was again spoils of this earlier Valyrian incursion? I know the one is said to be covered in runes, and the other in glyphs, so this is probably just a crackpot notion. But, we know that Drogon, at least, has horns. So if Mance's horn is not a dragonbinding horn, maybe it's an actual dragon horn, taken as a trophy from a slain dragon?

And if this defeat of the Valyrians involved the skinchangers warging the dragons - in essence, stealing them and perhaps turning them on their former masters - would this experience be enough to convince the Valyrians to steer clear of Westeros ever after?

Here's another thought: why don't the Targaryens have these dragonbinding horns? Did the Targaryens figure out a way to bond with their dragons - a more "warg-ish" way, maybe? - that obviated the need for the sorcerous binding that the other dragonlords may have needed to control their dragons? Drogon is fiesty and rebellious, but Daenerys doesn't need a horn to ride him.

We don't yet know how these dragonbinding horns really work, other than that they make a god-awful noise and that they are lethal to sound. But what happens to a dragon that is bound by such a horn? I'm interested, because I wonder if the horn cows the dragon in some way. If a horn-bound dragon becomes tame and biddable, would that make such a dragon more "warg-able"? We see from Skinchanging 101 that Varamyr Sixskins has a devil of a time controlling the snowbear, who hates him and resists him at every turn. From this example, it's hard to imagine even the most powerful skinchanger warging a dragon - unless said dragon has been broken in some way by a dragonhorn.

So - if the Valyrians did invade at some point waaaaay back in pre-history, and if their dragons were all broken to the horn - I can see the skinchangers of the North managing to overcome these dragons and turn them back on their masters.

The Other that faces Weymar Royce in the Game prologue takes a good, long look at Royce's sword before engaging, presumably to make sure that the sword is only ordinary steel, and not the more dangerous dragonsteel. Besides the records that Sam finds, this seems to hint that the Others have faced the dragons before.

The big BUT in all of this is of course there are no written or oral records about any such proto-invasion by the Valyrians. There may be accounts somewhere inscribed in runes, but the fact that there don't seem to be any stories or songs about it is what gives me the most pause. Old Nan knows all sorts of tales about the Age of Heroes, but we don't hear a single one about "dragons from across the water". It's too bad, because a lot of our niggling questions might be answered if only the Valyrians had stopped by Westeros at least once before!

[House Martell]

It's so hard to keep up with this thread, there is just such a constant flow of ideas....

A few points I want to make:

People seem hung up on Old Nans line "when the White Walkers first came". This doesn't need to imply there were multiple incursions of them only that they began their march south and may have continued moving south in waves but it was all one event (the Long Night).

I also don't see how the WW and CoF are directly linked. WW have wights while the CoF use creatures like Cold Hands, the WW use "dead" things and these crazy spiders we hear about, while the Greenseers control living animals.The CoF also lived all throughout the south initially while the WW are confined to the cold of the extreme north. I do think it was possible that the Children may have "unleashed" the WW on the south by bringing the cold down on the land, but I don't think they are in direrct control of them, more likely "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" type situation.

I also just can't believe that an epic "holy war" that lead to the ultimate defeat of the Old ways would not be recorded by a race with the ability to do so. The septons seem awfully high and mighty and I don't see them feeling a need for a "revision" to anything like that.

[Black Crow]

I also just can't believe that an epic "holy war" that lead to the ultimate defeat of the Old ways would not be recorded by a race with the ability to do so. The septons seem awfully high and mighty and I don't see them feeling a need for a "revision" to anything like that.

I suppose it all depends how you define a "holy" war as distinct from any other war of extermination. We know that the Andals slaughtered the Children in the six southern kingdoms and what some of us are now thinking is that the Battle for the Dawn also saw the northerners turn on them (and the Night's King) as well to drive them north of the Wall, either through some forgotten religious fervour still traceable in parts of the Nights Watch oath, competition for land as the refugees came north, or pressure from the Andals - "deal with this vermin and we'll back off" - or a combination of all three.

[Black Crow]

The second clue lies in the tale of Old Nan to Bran. In her tale she tells about the 'white walkers that move through the wood'. I think she describes the creatures we saw in the prologue.. Bran asks if she means the Others and she agrees to use this term.

Of course 'white walkers' could be a mistake by Nan.

But later on we meet Osha and her party. Again the term 'white walkers' is used. No mentioning of Others here.

This is one of the things that's bothered me too.

If the "enemy" are the White Walkers and only the White Walkers, why not call them that from the outset?

[FanTasy]

People seem hung up on Old Nans line "when the White Walkers first came". This doesn't need to imply there were multiple incursions of them only that they began their march south and may have continued moving south in waves but it was all one event (the Long Night).

It is never good to be hung up on something, I agree!

The actual quote is:

<Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time." AGOT Bran IV

[Lummel]

I suppose the significance of the first appearance of the white walkers is exactly that - its the first time. The impression from old nan's story is that the first men were well established, they knew about the existence of the children but these white walkers are new to them. Does that mean the white walkers are some other creature that had always existed but now came south for the first time with their ice spiders or were they a new creature, newly created, to fight the first men?

The first would imply they are some natural creature that breathes, eats and reproduces but thrives in the cold the second that they are some kind of magical, sorcererous creature. We also know that they melt when stabbed with obsidian - which really doesn't sound at all natural. If they are magical creatures then we ask who made them and why - since the children of the forest are the only magic workers that we know of so far in pre-historic westeros I'd assume they have some connection with them. But sure it's only an assumption.

House Martell, I agree with regard to the first incursion not implying only incursion.

[hotweaselsoup]

How do people feel about Aemon as far as "getting it right". And how about Marwyn(who does make HARD mention that it's Dragonglass, not obsidian)? Osha? Luwin? We need some keys to use for deciphering, and thus far it has been left to us as to who to take as absolute authority. My gut doesn't help anyone much since i think all of them have some of it right and some of it wrong.

Oh wow, you're right! Marwyn does make a distinction between dragonglass and obsidian. Good catch! Does this mean that dragonglass has been formed by dragonfire, as opposed to the volcanic fire that forms obsidian? If it's the dragonfire that is the magic ingredient (in both steel and glass) that kills the Others, can we assume that plain old obsidian won't work against them? This makes sense to me, but it also makes me worry that Stannis may not be mining the right stuff on Dragonstone.

[FanTasy]

Oh wow, you're right! Marwyn does make a distinction between dragonglass and obsidian. Good catch! Does this mean that dragonglass has been formed by dragonfire, as opposed to the volcanic fire that forms obsidian? If it's the dragonfire that is the magic ingredient (in both steel and glass) that kills the Others, can we assume that plain old obsidian won't work against them? This makes sense to me, but it also makes me worry that Stannis may not be mining the right stuff on Dragonstone.

Well, there were dragons on Dragonstone, they could have made the stuff.

What happens to sandstone if you expose it to intense heat? Can it turn into glass?

Have to reread what the two chained dragons did to the inside of the pyramid in Meereen where they were kept, were the walls just charred?

And wasn't there something with Harrenhal, the walls withstood the attack of the dragons but weren't they blackened and shiny?

Ow, and the Dragon Pit in Kings Landing, that was blackened too, I believe.

[House Martell]

This is one of the things that's bothered me too.

If the "enemy" are the White Walkers and only the White Walkers, why not call them that from the outset?

Am I mistaken in thinking that "Others" is a southern term, while "White Walkers" is whats used in the north, especially north of the wall. Maybe WW was the FM term, and "Others" is the Andal...

[Eyron]

The first time the White Walkers came, it was supposedly only First men that they encountered (the long night 8000 years ago). That there is record of times when men wore steel when they encountered White Walkers, means that they have come again, after the Long night. And that means that it happened thousands of years later, after Andal arrival. That is the implication of Old Nans story combined with the info Sam found.

About Marwyn, was he not talking about the glass candles?

I agree about the Others as a term that may have been used for all non-human races, by the Andals especially. But to me it is just a word, and when I talk of the giants, the Children and so on I say the old species, I sometimes call the White Walkers the Others, but I do feel like you all understand what I am saying. To me that distinction is not a major problem, since we know that the Andals killed the Children and probably all the other species they could find that they thought were unnatural, so there is no doubt they regarded them as "others". But we have not seen the Children referred to as the Others, not in the text Sam found and not by Old Nan or maester Luwin either, so I don't think the White Walkers being called the Others creates any confusion. Sam knows the difference between the Others and the Children, and so far everyone does. Like Old Nan agrees it's OK to interchange the words, so do I.

It's the same with "warging", it only applies to wargs, those who connect with a wolf, but most of us still use that word for skinchanging into any animal because we are used to it, and everyone understands what we are talking about.

Am I mistaken in thinking that "Others" is a southern term, while "White Walkers" is whats used in the north, especially north of the wall. Maybe WW was the FM term, and "Others" is the Andal...

That is exactly how I have imagined it. The First Men probably adapted their use of words when they started speaking the common tongue, whereas the term White Walkers probably is a direct translation from the old tongue. That is how I see it so far.

[FanTasy]

Am I mistaken in thinking that "Others" is a southern term, while "White Walkers" is whats used in the north, especially north of the wall. Maybe WW was the FM term, and "Others" is the Andal...

Hmm ... nice thinking. I recall Ned Stark talking about Others too. And Robb.

Don't recall what term Mance or Tormund use.