A Daenerys Character Arc Reread Thread III

[PatrickStormborn]

I didn't say for certain that there was or was not a contradiction. I merely raised it as an interesting point for discussion, and a possibility that we could have conflicting ideas about dragons from our two "expert" characters. Tyrion's use of "she-dragon" does seem to suggest that, in his view, dragon gender seems to be a permanent trait the way we'd normally think of gender.

There would be absolutely not be a possible contradiction here if he'd said something like, "Rhaenyra's dragon, which was female at the time..."

It does not seem to suggest that dragon gender seems to be permanent. He never says: "Rhaenyra's she-dragon, which was a female all the time." And anyway, I'm sure most people would take the words of Aemon above Tyrion -- particularly with regards to the grammar of High Valyrian.

[Sevumar]

It does not seem to suggest that dragon gender seems to be permanent. He never says: "Rhaenyra's she-dragon, which was a female all the time." And anyway, I'm sure most people would take the words of Aemon above Tyrion -- particularly with regards to the grammar of High Valyrian.

I'm not contesting what Aemon is saying about High Valyrian at all. In the knowledge and experience of most people in Martin's world, animals belong to one gender or the other for their entire lives, so using the construction "she-" plus animal name can reasonably be understood to denote a description of a permanent characteristic. A contradiction is possible, but not necessarily present.

I didn't bring up this point to claim that one person's information was correct versus the other's, simply that there appears to be a disagreement. We haven't seen anything in the text that confirms one view or the possible other.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I didn't say for certain that there was or was not a contradiction. I merely raised it as an interesting point for discussion, and a possibility that we could have conflicting ideas about dragons from our two "expert" characters. Tyrion's use of "she-dragon" does seem to suggest that, in his view, dragon gender seems to be a permanent trait the way we'd normally think of gender.

There would be absolutely not be a possible contradiction here if he'd said something like, "Rhaenyra's dragon, which was female at the time..."

Fair enough :)

There may be a gap between the understanding of lay people like Tyrion, no matter how well-read, and scholars like Aemon. Aemon as a Targaryen, probably obsessed with prophecy, has probably delved into the nature of dragons quite a bit.

I can't imagine how anyone would be able to tell the sex of a dragon that doesn't lay eggs. Once one lays, do people just assume it's a female forever? Seems like it would be really hard to confirm the maleness of a dragon, unless you were the rider and knew how to check and what to look for. Anyway, just rambling some thoughts.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys Ch 3

Dany is hosting Xaro Xhoan Daxos who is on an emissary mission to Qarth. He has brought with him as entertainment naked slave dancers, and Dany is treated to a dance-slash-live action porn. After thanking the dancers and sending them away, they begin to negotiate. Dany is in desperate need of trading partners – at the moment no one is trading with Meereen.

For centuries Meereen and her sister cities Yunkai and Astapor had been the linchpins of the slave trade, the place where Dothraki khals and the corsairs of the Basilisk Isles sold their captives and the rest of the world came to buy. Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders. Copper was plentiful in the Ghiscari hills, but the metal was not as valuable as it had been when bronze ruled the world. The cedars that had once grown tall along the coast grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria.

Once the trees had gone, the soil baked beneath the hot sun and blew away in thick red clouds. “It was these calamaties that transformed my people into slavers,” Galazza Galare had told her, at the Temple of the Graces. And I am the calamity that will change these slavers back into people, Dany had sworn to herself.

Xaro professes deep concern for Dany’s safety having heard tales of a bounty put forth by the sons of the harpy. Dany is disturbed that word has gone as far as Qarth. He wonders where the protectors he’d known are, leaving Dany with only one old knight to guard her. He says he wished she had never “abandoned” his palace. Dany finds this amusing since he basically threw her out.

They continue to banter (including Dany tossing fruit at him). Xaro wonders where Dany’s sudden zeal for freeing slaves came from. She explains the unsullied opened her eyes but now she feels the same about all slaves.

Xaro: And what would they do with freedom? As well give a fish a suit of mail. They were made to dance.

Dany: Made by who? Their masters? Perhaps your dancers would sooner build or bake or farm. Have you asked them?

…

Xaro: if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved.

Dany: Slavery is not the same as rain. I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned.

Xaro tells her of a friend of his who had lost his wealth in the sack and now worked on Dany’s fields. He begged Xaro to buy him. Dany tells him to buy him if the man wishes. They then leave to speak frankly.

On their way, Dany proposes the trade alliance she had in mind, but Xaro rejects each of her trade offers as useless to Qarth… unless she should agree to offer slaves. She refuses.

Xaro next tells Dany of how the Astapor host has now been defeated by Yunkai in the field. He informs her that roughly 20 sellsword companies are being gathered, and armies from New Ghis, Tolos, and Mantarys have also agreed to ally with the Yunkai’i. He says that if she marched on Yunkai now, Meereen would raise against her at her rear. Dany counters that she has Unsullied, her freedmen, and dragons, and Xaro notes that the last have not been seen as often as previously.

Dany asks him why he came if not to trade, and he says to offer a gift – a fleet of 13 galleys to carry her to Westeros. She asks how much he asks for these ships, he says nothing, as long as she swears to leave never to return. She asks what he shall do if she decides to wait.

That would make me very sad, my sweet delight… for young and strong as you now seem, you shall not live so long. Not here.

She tells him he will have an answer the next day. As they part, Xaro makes a pass at her, and she briefly considers sleeping with him, but decides not to.

She and Barristan discuss the ships. He is hopeful that they could take the ships home, but agrees with her that they should be inspected carefully. Selmy says that he will see to the inspection himself with Groleo. Dany notes somewhat disappointedly that unlike Jorah, Barristan seems unmoved by her Qartheen style gown.

When she awakes Dany is full of hope, that Darrio will return, and that all of them can sail home for Westeros.

Dany goes to court and four petitioners have come. The Astapori again ask for aid, now under assault from Yunkai. Dany refuses, saying she has been against this war from the start, and that Cleon is a slaver himself so she cannot support him. He spits in her face and Belwas tackles him and takes him away.

In council, Groleo is thrilled to have ships and says that they are mostly sound and should serve. Reznak moans in despair that she will leave them to be murdered by the other great masters, and Shavepate says he will kill as many as he can while he goes down. Dany says any who wish are free to come with her but is told by Symon Stripeback (a freedman) that thirteen ships is hardly enough to carry all of Dany’s people. Rommo, an old Dothraki, says that they could ride, and Grey Worm says the unsullied could march along shore, and resupply along the way. Shavepate points out that eventually the ships will have to sail south of valeria while the foot marches north, and many unsullied and freedmen will die along the demon road. Reznak moans in despair again, and Barristan tells him he should be grateful. Symon tells Barristan he is not in a position to speak so freely of bravery since he is taking a ship while others are doomed to die.

They all begin to argue and Dany silences them. She says that she cannot abandon so many to die and that Westeros will have to wait. Groleo and Barristan are dismayed.

…in Westeros, men will flock to your banners by the thousands, great lords and noble knights. She is come, they will shout to one another, in glad voices. Prince Rhaegar’s sister has come home at last.

Dany tells him that if they really did love her so much they would wait.

Dany meets Xaro to refuse him. Xaro begins to weep, saying she will surely die screaming, then says that he wished he had killed her in Qarth. Dany says she forgives his threat since he housed her and tells him to leave Qarth or be killed himself. The next day she is presented at court with a bloody glove from a captain of the Qartheen fleet – a declaration of war.

Thoughts:

Ugh this chapter is almost as painful as the last. And when I say painful I don’t really mean badly written or anything. It’s just that the entire situation is just impossible. Things are set up by GRRM so that the only choice Dany can reasonably make is the one that the reader desperately wants her NOT to make. At this point most of us want her to get to Westeros and to escape this morass. But at the same time we know she’s not going anywhere until some of the other PoV's reach her.

The only argument to go to Westeros at this point is Barristan essentially telling her the same BS that she’s been hearing from Viserys and Illyrio her whole life - hardly reliable. Do we really think Barristan is right that thousands upon thousands will instantly rise for her if she sailed West? Dany apparently doesn’t buy it any more coming from Barristan than she had back in aGoT. Meanwhile, if she marches, her army will be decimated. The choice to march/sail is not much better now than it was prior to taking Meereen, when Jorah offered the same advice.

And Xaro… ah what a slime, but he’s fun to read. She’s always known that though, and this is no different. Though I found it fairly amusing that she’s seriously horny enough now to consider sleeping with a gay ambassador who betrayed her once before… haha… well I suppose he is probably attractive.

The most interesting part of the chapter was the discussion about slavery, and the economy of Meereen, some of which I’ve quoted. What do people think? Is slavery actually a basis for an economic system? To me, this doesn’t really make sense. If the training of specialized labor is what Meereen is good at, that can (and is) still continuing. E.g. the example of the various craftspeople who have been mentioned. Workers can be trained and exported without slavery being involved, or their goods could be traded and taxed. Exactly what value-added is missing here?

[SeanF]

Mereen is a pre-capitalist economy. We're used to the idea that people (and societies) can mutually benefit from trading with each other, and that paid free labour tends to be a good deal more productive than slave labour.

The free Mereneese would probably take the view that any gains for the ex-slaves must result in losses for them.

WRT to reaching Westeros, marching overland isn't much of a credible proposition. The U nsullied might be able to manage it, but most of the rest would die like flies. The alternative, sailing there, will take many more than 13 ships.

[Morte]

Ugh this chapter is almost as painful as the last. And when I say painful I don’t really mean badly written or anything. It’s just that the entire situation is just impossible. Things are set up by GRRM so that the only choice Dany can reasonably make is the one that the reader desperately wants her NOT to make. At this point most of us want her to get to Westeros and to escape this morass. But at the same time we know she’s not going anywhere until some of the other PoV's reach her.

So true. And so frustrating.

The only argument to go to Westeros at this point is Barristan essentially telling her the same BS that she’s been hearing from Viserys and Illyrio her whole life - hardly reliable. Do we really think Barristan is right that thousands upon thousands will instantly rise for her if she sailed West? Dany apparently doesn’t buy it any more coming from Barristan than she had back in aGoT. Meanwhile, if she marches, her army will be decimated. The choice to march/sail is not much better now than it was prior to taking Meereen, when Jorah offered the same advice.

It's good to see that she at least doesn't believe in the whole "people are waiting for their beloved Targs"-tale anymore. I think (please correct me, if I'm wrong) that Barristan is still seeing Joff on the throne? Still, even if the people in Westeros would be desparatly waiting for her, and even with Barristan on her side I don't believe it would be so simple - possibly it is just his wish to move, that speaks here.

And of course you are right: there is no alternative to Meereen at this moment, she can't let her people die on the way (and I don't think, her enemies would let her freedmen and Unsullied pass, so the dangers on the road wouldn't be the only problems).

The most interesting part of the chapter was the discussion about slavery, and the economy of Meereen, some of which I’ve quoted. What do people think? Is slavery actually a basis for an economic system? To me, this doesn’t really make sense. If the training of specialized labor is what Meereen is good at, that can (and is) still continuing. E.g. the example of the various craftspeople who have been mentioned. Workers can be trained and exported without slavery being involved, or their goods could be traded and taxed. Exactly what value-added is missing here?

This is indeed very interesting. It seems as if the cities of Slaver Bay are doomed from the beginning: they do "breed" (sorry for the choose of words, but they are so limited in that they do so I stay with that word) slaves, but they don't use them (or so it seems) for other then making more slaves. And while they produce specialized craftmen this way, they just seem to export the craftman, instead of his work.

So maybe their economic situation with their trading partners is already quite, uh, onesided? It sounds to me, as if the other cities weren't buying anything then slaves for quite some time now. This would mean that Slaver Bay is already doomed to become irrelevant, as the slaves they sale will most likely teach other in the places there they actually work? :idea:

Mereen is a pre-capitalist economy. We're used to the idea that people (and societies) can mutually benefit from trading with each other, and that paid free labour tends to be a good deal more productive than slave labour.

Well it can be as productive, as we aren't talking about a industrial society here; but that depends on the slavery system of the society. What concerns me more is, that it seem as if Slaver Bay does only export slaves. This way they wouldn't be a productive and fuctional economic system at all (especially with Winter now coming and their ablility to get fresh slaves reduced).

WRT to reaching Westeros, marching overland isn't much of a credible proposition. The U nsullied might be able to manage it, but most of the rest would die like flies. The alternative, sailing there, will take many more than 13 ships.

That's why we have to wait for the Ironbound :bang: (Little hope: nobody knows where Mr. Waters did take Cersei's ships)

[Sevumar]

In some ways, this chapter represents the reality check that Dany has long needed. In the last two books, she's basically been able to do as she desired, without facing much in the way of real, capable opposition. There usually seemed a way out of each problem that served to keep her forces strong with very few casualties. The past couple of chapters have shown, for the first time, that someone is having a little bit of success in thwarting Dany's will and there isn't an easy way out of this situation.

It’s just that the entire situation is just impossible. Things are set up by GRRM so that the only choice Dany can reasonably make is the one that the reader desperately wants her NOT to make. At this point most of us want her to get to Westeros and to escape this morass. But at the same time we know she’s not going anywhere until some of the other PoV's reach her.

As much as it seems like it derails the story, I'm glad that Dany knows that she's responsible for cleaning up the mess she's made of Meereen. She deserves some respect for not taking the easy way out and abandoning the people she says she wants to help, however much I'm eager to see her integrated into the overall story.

I was hoping that ADWD would show us more of the arrivals of other PoVs earlier in the book so that we'd have some time to see how they impacted Dany's thinking and decisions in Meereen.

The only argument to go to Westeros at this point is Barristan essentially telling her the same BS that she’s been hearing from Viserys and Illyrio her whole life - hardly reliable. Do we really think Barristan is right that thousands upon thousands will instantly rise for her if she sailed West?

Barristan really comes off as more of a lickspittle than we've ever seen him before in the story. With the importance of identity a main theme in ADWD, it makes you wonder if he hasn't lost a bit of himself as a result of his time in the East. His training and his instincts as a Kingsguard in the traditional sense really aren't serving him or Dany well at this point in the story.

Dany apparently doesn’t buy it any more coming from Barristan than she had back in aGoT. Meanwhile, if she marches, her army will be decimated. The choice to march/sail is not much better now than it was prior to taking Meereen, when Jorah offered the same advice.

The most interesting part of the chapter was the discussion about slavery, and the economy of Meereen, some of which I’ve quoted. What do people think? Is slavery actually a basis for an economic system? To me, this doesn’t really make sense. If the training of specialized labor is what Meereen is good at, that can (and is) still continuing.

I think we have enough evidence of ancient economies that included slavery to get an indication that for a long time, it was a viable basis for an economic system. The attributes of the slave societies in Meereen, the rest of Slaver's Bay, and Volantis seem deliberately exaggerated in some ways, and it's hard to know if they could work in a real setting as described.

Of course, it seems alien to a lot of us, because in our mind, slavery is synonymous with masses of unskilled laborers working in production or agriculture on large scales rather than using labor-saving devices. Depending on the time and the place, that has been the case for some populations in the history of our world.

E.g. the example of the various craftspeople who have been mentioned. Workers can be trained and exported without slavery being involved, or their goods could be traded and taxed. Exactly what value-added is missing here

Is it as simple as an exaggeration of the labor problems we're faced with in our own economy? Producers will get away with paying their labor as little as possible (particularly if the laborers have no expectation of owning their labor and no means of demanding fair compensation) to maximize their profits. In much of our world, it's not acceptable to pay your workers nothing, but in many places, people can and do get away with paying less fair wages. The reality is that there is a lot of de facto slavery remaining in our world, though it is rarely codified into law and protected by official decrees of slave status.

[SeanF]

So true. And so frustrating.

Well it can be as productive, as we aren't talking about a industrial society here; but that depends on the slavery system of the society. What concerns me more is, that it seem as if Slaver Bay does only export slaves. This way they wouldn't be a productive and fuctional economic system at all (especially with Winter now coming and their ablility to get fresh slaves reduced).

If they were simply selling huge quantities of cheap unskilled labour, bought even more cheaply from the Dothraki, then it's hard to see how the Mereenese economy could survive once that trade was brought to an end.

But, as MDIND has pointed out, there is textual evidence that slaves are trained for quite a lot of highly skilled jobs, before being exported to the rest of the world. Therefore, it's fair to conclude that there are people in Mereen who could profit from selling their skills to ex-slaves and others on a paying basis.

However, my view is that in a pre-capitalist economy, that might not occur to any of the free Mereenese.

[Morte]

If they were simply selling huge quantities of cheap unskilled labour, bought even more cheaply from the Dothraki, then it's hard to see how the Mereenese economy could survive once that trade was brought to an end.

But, as MDIND has pointed out, there is textual evidence that slaves are trained for quite a lot of highly skilled jobs, before being exported to the rest of the world. Therefore, it's fair to conclude that there are people in Mereen who could profit from selling their skills to ex-slaves and others on a paying basis.

However, my view is that in a pre-capitalist economy, that might not occur to any of the free Mereenese.

Well, one could make a living as a teacher in antiquity, also you had free employes back then, so I don't think it's about pre-capitalistic economy, more about Mereeneses thinking patterns.

Still, even in pre-capitalistic economies it allway was the goal to export endproducts, not the people who can make them (in fact, you would try to hide where you find specific trade goods or/and how they are made), and as Meereen does have guilds I wonder why they seem to only export slaves - maybe they are already bound by trading pacts with the other parts of Essos. This would indeed slow their cultural and economic development quite a bit.

[Parwan]

On the economic question: The Meereenese should have been intelligent enough to see that other people survive without slavery. It is outlawed in Westeros and in Braavos. I don't think that the Lhazarene practice it. I don't buy the argument that slavery was the only choice.

"Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders." There is a considerable contradiction between this assertion and Xaro's statement, "...but I would gladly take as many olives as you cared to sell me. Olive oil as well." Note that I am talking about the general situation as it has existed in Meereen, not the current situation. Even given the current situation, things aren't that bad. The text clearly states that there are unburnt olive trees, in the far hills for example. And the grapes--over the many centuries, was it not possible to improve the grapes, at least somewhat? Did it never occur to anyone that grapes can be used for things other than wine? Sometimes a tart taste can be good when combined with the right foods. Finally, the cities of Slaver's Bay are portrayed as rich, not just places where people barely get by. People with sufficient capital and a minimum of effort can alter their ways of making money, even in a pre-capitalist society. There is an example in this chapter--the merchant who dealt in rare spices and choice wines.

On the question of the ships: Yes, frustration and irritation are in order. For most of ASoIaF, Dany seems to be a cagey negotiator. Then she gets to Meereen and loses all of her ability in this area. It's clear that Xaro and others really want her to leave. The thing to do in this case is to make a counter offer: "Thirteen, that's an interesting number of ships, but I need more. I'll take 300." At this point, Xaro can do his usual routine: "Oh, oh, it's terrible!" Cry, weep, moan. "My good and dear friend has eaten bad mushrooms. This has addled her mind!" After this, Dany can reduce her request to 130. Then, perhaps, some serious negotiations can start. It's likely they will not result in a deal acceptable to both parties, but the effort should be made.

We've made a few comparisons between Daenerys and Lord Tywin. The Lannister that Dany could use here, however, is Tyrion. I'll have more to say on this later.

[Faint]

I have only very recently begun to re-read the last book and I am quickly reminded why I found Daenerys so distasteful this time around. This really troubles me because I had been such a fan of hers going into the book but there are certain actions she has now taken that I find truly unforgivable. This passage in particular really gives me pause:

A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father’s household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father’s house, and the other had joined the queen’s soldiers as one of the Mother’s Men. He wanted them both hanged.

I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters.

When she told him, the boy rushed at her, but his feet tangled in his tokar and he went sprawling headlong on the purple marble. Strong Belwas was on him at once. The huge brown eunuch yanked him up one-handed and shook him like a mastiff with a rat. “Enough, Belwas,” Dany called. “Release him.” To the boy she said, “Treasure that tokar, for it saved your life. You are only a boy, so we will forget what happened here. You should do the same.”

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (pp. 42-43). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

There is so much I can say here but what I find particularly galling is the implications of what this passage seems to suggest.

In effect, if I understand correctly, had every free woman in Meereen been raped and killed by their male slaves, this would go completely unpunished so long as it happened during the sack of the city. Never mind how truly unnecessary the raping of women was to the taking of the city.

Which springs to mind another question: Would this blanket pardon apply if all the prepubescent children of Meereen were sodomized by their house slaves and then roasted over open fires as the city was taken?

Provided, of course, this all occurred before the city fell.

After all, that seems just as pointless as all the women that were raped in the frenzy of the sack and Daenerys did say “all crimes.”

And am I to understand, from this passage and others, that all property in the city confiscated by slaves during the sack, with the exception of jewels strangely but certainly including real property, is now forever the property of the acquiring slaves?

Lastly, are the children of the former slave owners, who are themselves hardly guilty of any crimes -- as the boy in the passage above for example -- truly supposed to just move on with their lives, having seen their mothers and sisters raped and then killed by those that have now confiscated and kept all their property?

I have no words to describe my disgusts about all this. I simply feel dirty reading these early Daenerys chapters. Forgetting someone's name is apparently a high crime but rapes go completely unpunished.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I don't have much to say about this chapter, except that the whole porn dance seemed extremely forced, random, and insanely contrived to me. Talk about orientalism, what was that entire show for? Weren't the Essosi weird enough already, what with roasted puppy fetuses and everything? WTF is this Martin? Ok, rant over.

[mor2]

On the economic question: The Meereenese should have been intelligent enough to see that other people survive without slavery. It is outlawed in Westeros and in Braavos. I don't think that the Lhazarene practice it. I don't buy the argument that slavery was the only choice.

this is not an economic choice, you can simply make (buy olives or jewelery) but part of social structure that is four thousand years old, the only reason that it is not practiced in most of westeros is their religion, although the freefolks and the Ironborn do it in all but name, while the rest of the seven kingdoms is practicing has serf which is basically the same as slaves.

Also speaking of intelligence it seem that Essos cities are much more advanced in every aspect of life and they were much more so before the doom.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I suppose the porn dance does allow Dany and Xaro to have that insightful little conversation about the nature of slavery in Essos, and the fact that many slaves are highly skilled workers. It seems that instead of spending money on a service per transaction, the rich in Essos like to just buy the source of the service. Skilled slave labor means that eradicating slavery in any meaningful way is going to be just that much more difficult. Of course, in theory, the cumulative value of a slave's products or services should be equivalent to the value of the slave himself, and the resources required for his upkeep, right? So one would think the transition to an economy based on trading goods and services, rather than people, shouldn't be exactly earth-shattering. However, Sevumar brings up a really good point:

Is it as simple as an exaggeration of the labor problems we're faced with in our own economy? Producers will get away with paying their labor as little as possible (particularly if the laborers have no expectation of owning their labor and no means of demanding fair compensation) to maximize their profits. In much of our world, it's not acceptable to pay your workers nothing, but in many places, people can and do get away with paying less fair wages. The reality is that there is a lot of de facto slavery remaining in our world, though it is rarely codified into law and protected by official decrees of slave status.

Given the resistance of the ruling classes to the eradication of slavery, one would expect the snooty little bastards to pay as little as possible for the work of freedmen. We already see some of this indirectly in the previous chapter, when Dany has to deal with the petitioner who's upset about freedmen starting "guilds." The guild association is coveted because it directly corresponds to the assumed quality and value of the items/labor offered, and thereby, the prices that can be charged, and what people are willing to pay. I think I mentioned before that Dany's decision regarding the the guild thing was good, but probably impossible to enforce. I don't think there's any more she could have done in that regard, which highlights how impossible the situation, at least short-term is. The former owners will be trying to keep ex-slaves disenfranchised for as long as possible politically, and kind of screwing them economically by artificially depressing the value of their labor for as long as possible.

This is where the importance of skilled labor vs. unskilled labor comes in. The skilled slaves can expect a huge change in their standard of living after being freed by Dany. If a slave owner is paying the market price for a person who required years of training to gain whatever skills they have, for example weaving, or serving as scribes, it's very likely that slave is going to be treated very well. The slave can probably expect to never go hungry, and be well-clothed and housed. You don't treat an expensive investment like crap. Punishment, if necessary would probably be immediate and corporal, like whipping, not something more long-term, like food deprivation, which would risk the life, health, and ability of a skilled laborer to function. Once such a slave is freed, they're basically on their own, selling their skills in a really hostile market. They can now probably expect to go hungry pretty often, and their quality of food, clothing, and housing will be significantly worse.

This contrasts quite a bit with the lot of a hypothetical unskilled laborer, i.e. field-hand or maid. The value of these slaves would be less because they don't need as much training, and their hard labor shortens their life-spans. Their lives as slaves would suck so much that freedom, and the difficulties of freedom would probably be welcome. Would the skilled slaves of Meereen share this view at all? How realistic is it that they should welcome Dany's reforms, and how long will it take before they become disillusioned? Before I get flamed, I want to say that slavery, in all its forms is terrible and should certainly be eradicated. A person belongs to him or herself only, and this freedom has inherent value in itself. However, there's also inherent value in being able to live a life where you actually have a chance to be comfortable and reach self-actualization--- pursuit of life, liberty and happiness and all that. Life and liberty don't mean much when happiness is entirely impossible.

Enough de facto misery and disenfranchisement can completely negate the benefits of de jure freedom. When deconstructing something like slavery, people really need to have long term goals for the freedmen in mind.

So is there any way that Dany could have freed the people of Slaver's Bay so that they wouldn't remain completely disenfranchised for generations upon generations, materially worse off as freedmen than as slaves? Since it seems so damned impossible, given the culture of Slaver's Bay, is the take-home message supposed to be that it's good that Dany tried, even though her efforts are destined for spectacular failure? Personally, I think that's kind of a cop out. I have some more thoughts on this but my post is getting really long so it'll have to wait for another installment.

[mor2]

If Dany had any intention to stay in Essos and commit to the welfare of those slaves, she could make many gradual changes that would have been allowed a less painful transition. As it is there is a long stretch between the freedmen who manged to start their own guilds under Dany rule and those who succumbed to a new slavery by a recently freedmen, most of it not good.

Some seem to think that only because people have been subject to slavery(discrimination etc) they are somehow immune to it and that they will share Dany nobles ideas. I say most of the country will turn into chaos and anarchy and most of the freedmen are yet to beg to return to the "good old times".

[SeanF]

I don't have much to say about this chapter, except that the whole porn dance seemed extremely forced, random, and insanely contrived to me. Talk about orientalism, what was that entire show for? Weren't the Essosi weird enough already, what with roasted puppy fetuses and everything? WTF is this Martin? Ok, rant over.

There are many parts of the world, where you can find similar forms of entertainment, without looking very far.

I suppose where it seems forced to us is that this dance is being performed in a royal court. We can't imagine something like that taking place at Buckingham Palace, or the White House, and so it seems absurd.

But, Martin has done his homework here. Medieval courts could be extremely crude and earthy. A dance of this nature wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at the Court of Alexander VI or Leo X, or Bernabo Visconti. Think back to Joffrey's wedding, and how all the guests find it hilarious to see the two dwarves pretending to copulate They'd be killing themselves with laughter if they were actually doing so.

Daenerys has spent her formative years among Dothraki, swellswords, and freed slaves, none of whom are noted for clean living, so it's no real surprise she enjoyed the dance and was turned on by it.

And, when the Red Viper, or Princess Arianne, host a banquet at Sunspear, you don't suppose the guests are just turning up for the food, wine, and conversation, do you?

[SeanF]

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[LadyoftheNorth72]

His training and his instincts as a Kingsguard in the traditional sense really aren't serving him or Dany well at this point in the story.

IMO Barristan is acting exactly like a Kingsguard at this point. After all, the KG are not chosen to be wise councilors, they are chosen for their fighting prowess and to protect their sovereign. Barristan proved through hos service in Westeros that he tends more to go along with his sovereign than argue against them, and his top concern now is what he sees as the safest course for Dany alone (albeit a very short sighted view), not what is best for her people or her fighters. He wants her out of Meereen, which he correctly judges as a dangerous place for her to be. He is not necessarily so great at policy or long term planning, because KG are trained to obey and protect, not so much to think.

[Morte]

You made some very good points there RevengeOfTheStarks, the situation of the freedmen is actually quite deadlocked, and I'm not sure if GRRM is conscious about this. If he is, then he may indeed let Dany leave Slaver Bay with as many people as want to go with her while the remaining go back to the old system. This would be ... aehm, anticlimatic, but it is possible.

So is there any way that Dany could have freed the people of Slaver's Bay so that they wouldn't remain completely disenfranchised for generations upon generations, materially worse off as freedmen than as slaves? Since it seems so damned impossible, given the culture of Slaver's Bay, is the take-home message supposed to be that it's good that Dany tried, even though her efforts are destined for spectacular failure?

Well, in most slaver societies most people didn't have slaves at all (because they were not wealthy enough), and we know, that this free people of Meereen do actually work in organized guilds. So, IMHO the only possibility would be the freedmen and free men (but non-slavers) of Slaver Bay working together. It does seem as if the guilds would be willing to let the freedmen join them, so it would be possible from their point of view (though we don't know if there would be discrimination, and how strong), but this would require the freedmen to also work with the established guilds, to not marginalize their own work (and the one of the free men) by charging to little for their services . While such a solidaric behaviour would be possible, I highly doubt it, as the text already shows that the freedmen do actually work for much less then their work would be worth and the guilds charge for it.

On the long (long, long, very long) run however, such a development would IMHO be possible, and maybe even better for Meereen (and the whole Slaver Bay), as at the moment they seem to only (or at least mostly) sell highly trained slaves, while they should be able to export the goods they produce.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

There is so much I can say here but what I find particularly galling is the implications of what this passage seems to suggest.

In effect, if I understand correctly, had every free woman in Meereen been raped and killed by their male slaves, this would go completely unpunished so long as it happened during the sack of the city. Never mind how truly unnecessary the raping of women was to the taking of the city.

Which springs to mind another question: Would this blanket pardon apply if all the prepubescent children of Meereen were sodomized by their house slaves and then roasted over open fires as the city was taken?

Provided, of course, this all occurred before the city fell.

I'm glad someone brought this up.

I too question whether a blanket pardon was really a good idea. I do think that it was absolutely necessary to pardon two crimes - first, killing of a master by his slave (or vice-versa) and second, looting by a slave of his master's goods. Why? Because this is a slave uprising - by joining the cause, the slaves become members of Dany's army - killing their masters in the context of the sack itself is little different than war. Stealing from the enemy I think is something which is needed to motivate troops. Dany's own sellswords did some looting in order to pay their wages and this is expected part of war in any medieval society.

On the other hand, rape, torture and other such crimes are much more difficult to accept. In her defense, I have to think that the choice to apply a blanket pardon came only after Daenerys had some intelligence which told her that the amount of crime was relatively small and certainly not to the extent that you argue above. I lean towards thinking that she should not actually have pardoned rape... except for the fact that I think that rape by their men during a sack is accepted by pretty much all Westerosi lords, good and bad. The only exception I've heard of is Stannis and even he begins to bend on the issue during aDwD. Dany is actually exceptional in that she outlaws rape immediately upon her entrance to the city.