House Lannister The Cersei Lannister ReRead Project (formerly The Cersei Thread III)

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I found her paranoia after Joff's murder fascinating. She earnestly believed the little man was lurking in the walls to murder her and her children.

[ElizaMartell]

I found her paranoia after Joff's murder fascinating. She earnestly believed the little man was lurking in the walls to murder her and her children.

The little man is Tyrion, he's capable of anything.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

The little man is Tyrion, he's capable of anything.

Yeah, but I mean was there ever a moment when she suspected Varys or thought "Maybe this is an overkill." when she tore down and burned the Tower of the Hand?

[Nausicaä]

Yeah, but I mean was there ever a moment when she suspected Varys or thought "Maybe this is an overkill." when she tore down and burned the Tower of the Hand?

I don't think that was at all an overkill. The tower was filled with secret passages, obviously dangerous and unsuitable for anyone to live in and it was easy to get rid of (after Jaime and his men reduced it to a carcass and tore down half the walls), so she did. I would have done the same to the tower if I was in her shoes and I think her idea (building a new palace to move the court to and tearing down the rest of the Red Keep when the time is right and the crown can afford it) was good and reasonable.

I don't remember, doesn't she suspect Varys? I thought she wanted him found along with Tyrion.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I don't think that was at all an overkill. The tower was filled with secret passages, obviously dangerous and unsuitable for anyone to live in and it was easy to get rid of (after Jaime and his men reduced it to a carcass and tore down half the walls), so she did. I would have done the same to the tower if I was in her shoes and I think her idea (building a new palace to move the court to and tearing down the rest of the Red Keep when the time is right and the crown can afford it) was good and reasonable.

I don't remember, doesn't she suspect Varys? I thought she wanted him found along with Tyrion.

I don't think she suspected Varys, but if I were in her shoes, I would order a new palace built elsewhere, and in the meantime turn those secret passageways to my advantage. I wouldn't replace the Red Keep with a new construction though, it serves the purpose of symbolizing that whoever lives there is the true ruler. And isn't the Iron Throne in it?

[Nausicaä]

If I were in her shoes, I would order a new palace built elsewhere, and in the meantime turn those secret passageways to my advantage.

She wanted the new palace built on the other side of the river and for it to replace the Red Keep. I don't think it was possible for them to use the secret passageways to their advantage, because they didn't find all of them and couldn't even explore the ones they did find: some of them were too small to fit or ended with dead ends, had too many traps, etc. IIRC, two of the guardsmen exploring the passages on Jaime's orders vanished in them without a trace and some of the other explorers could hear their voices but not tell where they were coming from. The Red Keep is just too creepy.

I wouldn't replace the Red Keep with a new construction though, it serves the purpose of symbolizing that whoever lives there is the true ruler. And isn't the Iron Throne in it?

But if it's leveled/burnt down, that function would pass to the only other great palace in the city. It's not like there would be two courts, with one of them seeming more legitimate than the other. The Iron Throne can be moved.

[Baitac]

I love Cersei. I love the serpentine sound of her name. She is one of my favorite villains ever. She doesn't seek beauty, she doesn't seek a man, she doesn't yearn for children, she has all the wealth of her family, and yet she is one malcontent, fault finding Queen. She is wound very tightly and will explode whenever she feels that she or her children are in danger of losing their positions in the game. She is one crazy mamma.

[Miryana]

Another thread got me thinking about Cersei and Sansa again. A big reason why I dislike Cersei is her treatment of Sansa, because it's so representative of her general indifference to suffering. However, in this instance, I do think the pieces were in place for her to feel at least a little empathy or doubt without it seeming out of character. Here's a young girl who thought she'd get her prince the way Cersei thought she'd get Rhaegar, but who is instead being beaten on the orders of the king whose abuse of her is increasingly sexual. Cersei would still have condemned innocents to torture or murder, she would still be someone I wanted executed for her crimes, but if she'd recognised some similarity between Sansa's situation and her own, or had at least some thoughts about how she wished one of the instances where Joffrey had obeyed her better had been his treatment of Sansa, it would have added a bit of complexity to her.

[TheGreatjon]

Just because you love your children it doesn't mean you're a good mother. Cersei's love seems to be the love of the parent who sees the success of her children as validation of herself. The details of their personalities are irrelevant (Joffrey was good because he was strong-willed, except when he didn't do as she told - right, that's his one flaw...). That's why I'm interested in her thoughts on Myrcella. People who've reread more often - could you point to any passages where thinks about Myrcella as a person, or any incidents in their past? I can't recall any, just some generic references.

Also, this has been bothering me since it's become so prominent in ASOIAF/GOT fanart - what is so awesome about her telling Robert he should be the one in skirts? To me that was just a display of Cersei's stunning arrogance, with a side dish of her usual contempt for femininity or women other than herself. Whatever Robert may have become, once he was a legitimately exceptional warrior who won a kingdom. Cersei also thinks she's braver than Jaime, another exceptional warrior. Based on what? She's not Arya or Brienne or a Mormont lady, ready to train despite the scorn women warriors face. It's just an expression of her confidence in her innate superiority (if she had trained, she would be the awesomest ever - I'm reminded of Lady Catherine de Bourgh talking about masterful she would have been had she played the piano). We see how that works out when she gets to rule the way she wants to and reality refuses to shape itself around her view of what it is. Even if Cersei had been a man, what guarantee is there that she would have been an all-time great like Robert or Jaime? Maybe she wouldn't have had the self-discipline to practice. Maybe even practice wouldn't have made her more than average. So in the end, I don't find anything admirable about that quote at all.

Yeah I agree with just about all of this.

Yeah I'm sure she loves her kids, but I don't think she deserves a pat on the back because of it, like Miryana said, you can love your kids and still be a shitty parent, which she is.

I used to think she wasn't that bad, not a truly evil person just naive. But I'm not so sure after reading AFFC, she does some pretty unspeakable things in AFFC, that just made me sick. And whats more annoying, she seems to thin she is Nymeria reborn, when really she is completely and totally inept, she does way more harm than good. I don't think theres anything complex about her like I used to think , because I used to think she had somewhat of a heart, but like I said her actions in AFFC have shown me otherwise.

The most annoying part is how she thinks she is this great ruler, and everyone else is a complete idiot, when in reality she is the complete idiot. Some of the things she does just frustrate me, even though I want to see her completely ruin her house, I still am sometimes in awe of her ineptness. For example, when KL needed a new master at arms, and Cersei was asked who it would be, she insisted on sending all the way to Dorne for a new master at arms, when Pycelle replied "But that would insult the Tyrells" she says "Why do you think I'm DOING it??" lol I mean come on, does she not realize or just not care that the Tyrells are her only ally left? and she does everything in her power to slight them at every turn.

And I don't think I remember her ever saying she would be willing to go back to casterly rock and let Tommen rule, I remember when Jaime brought that up to her she scoffed at even the mention of it, one time when Tommen was somewhat challenging her, she thought to herself "its my time now, not yours" or something along those lines, so she obviously has no interest in letting her son learn how to be a king, or teaching him much of anything, she's only concerned with her own vanity and wants all the power to herself, and won't even share it with her son, the king, honestly, I don't think she even truly loved Jaime, she's too self centered to care about anyone but her kids, and barely that.

[Zar Lannister]

Another thread got me thinking about Cersei and Sansa again. A big reason why I dislike Cersei is her treatment of Sansa, because it's so representative of her general indifference to suffering.

Yes, Cersei is indifferent to suffering. But more than that, she averts weakness. From her conversation with Tommen in A Feast For Crows:

“The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside.”

I think Cersei's "words of wisdom" to Sansa are mean, and intended to strengthen her character by confronting her with her pitiful fate. At best, Cersei thinks women shouldn't show signs of weakness because of their womanhood. No. I am not saying Cersei is some sort of girl-power leader. I think Cersei is a Power-Seeker and would take any road she could to obtain it, gender set aside. Cersei doesn't believe in equal oportunity for all. Heck, if Cersei could get an advantage by suddenly being a man, she wouldn't waste a second to seize it. What she does believe, is that she shouldn't be treated differently just because SHE (Cersei specifically) is a woman.

However, in this instance, I do think the pieces were in place for her to feel at least a little empathy or doubt without it seeming out of character. Here's a young girl who thought she'd get her prince the way Cersei thought she'd get Rhaegar, but who is instead being beaten on the orders of the king whose abuse of her is increasingly sexual. Cersei would still have condemned innocents to torture or murder, she would still be someone I wanted executed for her crimes, but if she'd recognised some similarity between Sansa's situation and her own, or had at least some thoughts about how she wished one of the instances where Joffrey had obeyed her better had been his treatment of Sansa, it would have added a bit of complexity to her.

I don't think there is a possibility in the world anyone could get empathy from Cersei. Because, well, I don't think Cersei sees herself as someone that should be empathized with. She clearly thinks she should stand out because of her position and uses her "assets" as her tools and Littlefinger knows this quite well.

“Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

She will most likely think Tyrion magically appeared and killed Kevon!

I can see why she treated Sansa bad because she seems to have the attitude of "well, this happened to me so why shouldn't you be be treated the same? I had a horrid husband so why should you get a nice husband?"

I seriously disliked the way she treated Jaime, the one person who truly DID love her.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I used to think she wasn't that bad, not a truly evil person just naive. But I'm not so sure after reading AFFC, she does some pretty unspeakable things in AFFC, that just made me sick. And whats more annoying, she seems to thin she is Nymeria reborn, when really she is completely and totally inept, she does way more harm than good. I don't think theres anything complex about her like I used to think , because I used to think she had somewhat of a heart, but like I said her actions in AFFC have shown me otherwise.

This is something that has been discussed in many Cersei threads, and has been a source of great aggravation to many of us who do not see Cersei as the Ultimate Evil. The Cersei we saw pre-AFFC was more complex, more human, more understandable and even had some redeeming qualities. Then suddenly in AFFC, she does this wild screeching swerve into utter idiocy and villainy, with no real reason or explanation given. I might could have understood her growing more ruthless and power focused, given the events she has had to endure and the situations she has had to cope with; but the one thing I cannot accept or forgive is the way she suddenly lost about 50 IQ points and all the layers/complexity to her character. She went from being an intelligent, morally compromised, selfish but fascinating woman, to being a completely flat and predictably stupid "Evil Queen" character straight out of Central Casting.

My hope is that her final dinner with Kevan actually showed us Cersei getting some of her mojo back, and that we will see a return of her intelligence and capabilities in TWOW. I do not expect a big redemption arc - in fact, I don't want one. I want Cersei to stay one of those characters that we love to hate. But I will be extremely disappointed and slightly pissed if what we get from her next is a continuation of this downward spiral of stupidity and self destruction.

[The King in the South]

This is something that has been discussed in many Cersei threads, and has been a source of great aggravation to many of us who do not see Cersei as the Ultimate Evil. The Cersei we saw pre-AFFC was more complex, more human, more understandable and even had some redeeming qualities. Then suddenly in AFFC, she does this wild screeching swerve into utter idiocy and villainy, with no real reason or explanation given. I might could have understood her growing more ruthless and power focused, given the events she has had to endure and the situations she has had to cope with; but the one thing I cannot accept or forgive is the way she suddenly lost about 50 IQ points and all the layers/complexity to her character. She went from being an intelligent, morally compromised, selfish but fascinating woman, to being a completely flat and predictably stupid "Evil Queen" character straight out of Central Casting.

My hope is that her final dinner with Kevan actually showed us Cersei getting some of her mojo back, and that we will see a return of her intelligence and capabilities in TWOW. I do not expect a big redemption arc - in fact, I don't want one. I want Cersei to stay one of those characters that we love to hate. But I will be extremely disappointed and slightly pissed if what we get from her next is a continuation of this downward spiral of stupidity and self destruction.

This represents my thoughts exactly. If one thing truly pissed me off about AFFC, it was not the Brienne chapters, nor the Ironborn, nor the Areo Hotah ones, but the way Cersei just seemed to drop off. It almost seemed like Martin just hated the character at certain times and really didn't want to work on it.

[Baitac]

I think Cersei totally decompensated when Joffrey was murdered. This act was entirely unexpected. It happened at home, under her supervision, and while she was the absolute head of the household and the kingdom. This affected her deeply as a mother. It also completely devastated her plans short and long-term. She was given more than she could handle. Her inevitable downward spiral sped up exponentially after she lost Joff.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

She lost her son, then she lost her father and is starting to realize that she's basically lost her brother (Jaime), the one man she took for granted and thought would always be there for her.

Life isn't going so well for Cersei these days. The woman is having a nervous breakdown

[Zar Lannister]

She lost her son, then she lost her father and is starting to realize that she's basically lost her brother (Jaime), the one man she took for granted and thought would always be there for her.

Life isn't going so well for Cersei these days. The woman is having a nervous breakdown

That, plus the person she sees as her nemesis is on the lam, and the people she relies on keep dying. Her Paranoia could reach a whole new level.

[Zar Lannister]

My hope is that her final dinner with Kevan actually showed us Cersei getting some of her mojo back, and that we will see a return of her intelligence and capabilities in TWOW. I do not expect a big redemption arc - in fact, I don't want one. I want Cersei to stay one of those characters that we love to hate. But I will be extremely disappointed and slightly pissed if what we get from her next is a continuation of this downward spiral of stupidity and self destruction.

If she gets a few Tyrells along the way, I will be extremely happy.

[Zar Lannister]

I wonder what she will do now that Kevan is dead. She can either go even more batshit crazy (with the risk of not having enough Allies in KL at this point), or try to outwit them. The Lannisters have a tendency to use their wits in the moments they need them most. Will Cersei pull a Tyrion for once?

[Baitac]

Well. My topic about Cersei's walk of shame went bye bye. I think things fare the same way for Cersei. She never had a chance. The only authority she has left is that she is Tommen's mother and that she is wealthy (as she is a Lannister). She has Qyburn too and Frankengregor. Gosh, this is making me feel too depressed.

[Silmarien]

This is the continuation on the Debate of Cersei Lannister's actions, pitying her fate or enjoying her moments of wrath in the novels.

Central topic: What is it that fascinates you of Cersei Lannister?

Latest sub-topics:

1) To what extent do we believe Cersei truly loves her children?

2) What chapters would a comprehensive Cersei arc include, previous to her becoming a POV in AFFC?

I don't think Cersei is capable of love in a conventional sense. She is too narcissistic. She sees her children as extensions of herself, or as a means to rule through them. I have no doubt that she is protective of them and grieved genuinely for her golden child, Joffrey, but her treatment of Tommen is quite abusive and disturbing.

Lucky Myrcella is in Dorne (well, probably on her way back to KL by now, but still), or Cersei would likely be fussing over how she isn't "beautiful" anymore. She didn't seem too interested in Myrcella when she heard the news from Kevan about her damaged face.

So, I think Cersei is protective of her children, and would do anything to ensure their safety...but love? I don't think she's ever experienced genuine love. How could she feel love if she's never gotten any herself? Her relationship with Jaime is a manipulative one based on sex mostly, and her controlling him.

2) Hmm...well we'd need at least 2-3 in AGoT, and perhaps more in ACoK and ASoS (I'm thinking 5-6 max). I think Cersei started off not really worried about the prophesy, but her paranoia amped up when her firstborn died and harkened back to that prophesy when she was 10, that she tried very hard to forget.

Also, Tywin provided a check on Cersei's ability to have a free hand in making decisions - she respected him and bowed to his authority. Once he died, well, she was free to make her own decisions, fancying herself better than her father. But she isn't. All she knows is how to manipulate, to use her feminine charms to get men to do what she wants, and while she's smarter book wise than Jaime (who had no clue who Ossifer Plumm was), she isn't brilliant.

The thing we must remember is that Cersei wasn't groomed to rule. She was never taught by Tywin how to strategize, make alliances, and how to practice politics. Cersei's only "role model" was Tywin at age 15; though she wasn't being taught by him how to rule, she was just a pretty daughter he kept around.

Her other "role model" was Robert, a horrid King who bankrupted the kingdom with lavish spending, and basically let his small council run everything. So, that wasn't much in terms of education on how to be a good monarch.

Cersei was more adept than Ned Stark at playing the game of thrones, but that's not saying much! Ned was out of his league, and Lannister forces were backing her up all over KL. Ned lacked the political skills Catelyn had (he should've sent her to be Hand, and stayed at Winterfell!). He knew how to run politics in the North, but it's much different in the North - a simpler place, with simpler people, and loyal bannermen.

Ned knew how to make his bannermen feel special, inviting them one by one to know them better (he tells Robb that he must know his men if he is to lead them). He even has the political savvy to include the mountain clans (which are probaby slightly more civilized than Wildlings), and made them feel like honored members of the North. He inspired loyalty very well. His honor meant something to the Northerners. But not in KL.

Honor gets you killed or dismissed from the KG in KL. Ned was a good leader, but he couldn't hack it in the South, with it's strange gods and treachery.

Cersei had no scruples at all, so she was a decent player while Robert was king and before the gossip about her children's legitimacy started. She had no idea how to rule during wartime - she was lucky Tyrion was there to save their asses. Cersei couldn't even manage to keep it together in Maegor's hosting all the ladies and wives of knights and Lords fighting in the battle. She drank too much and lost her shit, stormed out. Sansa had to soothe the crowd of women, which she did remarkably well, and much better than Cersei could have. Why? Because Sansa was raised to be a Lady, to have courtesy, and Cat likely passed on a bit of her political savvy to her.

So, I feel bad for Cersei - she had no one to groom her to rule...so how was she supposed to know how to do it? She was winging it, and that's a bad bad way to rule a kingdom.

Having Ser Illyn Payne there to kill all of them to avoid shame? That's fucking INSANE. Her paranoia, extreme arrogance, and narcissim didn't come out of the blue - it was always there. Joffrey's death just kicked it up several notches.

It would have been interesting to see what was going on in her head during the earlier books - but from observation I think we got enough to understand her character traits. She used Lancel sexually, and he became her lackey. Tyrion checked her power somewhat, which also restrained her ability to rule all by herself, despite how much she hated it.