House Lannister The Cersei Lannister ReRead Project (formerly The Cersei Thread III)

[Zar Lannister]

This is the continuation on the Debate of Cersei Lannister's actions, pitying her fate or enjoying her moments of wrath in the novels.

Central topic: What is it that fascinates you of Cersei Lannister?

Latest sub-topics:

1) To what extent do we believe Cersei truly loves her children?

2) What chapters would a comprehensive Cersei arc include, previous to her becoming a POV in AFFC?

[1234567]

1) I think Cersei completely loves her children, but Joff was her special boy as it were. Unfortunately in order to raise children well, sometimes love isn't enough.

2) ?

[The Drunkard]

Central topic: What is it that fascinates you of Cersei Lannister?

I love her bitch-evil nature.

1) To what extent do we believe Cersei truly loves her children?

I reckon she really does love her children, but because they are her blood, not because she likes them or finds them enjoyable.

[Zar Lannister]

And like I said before, I think she was worried for Tommen after her walk of shame mostly because she is now ruling through him. You have a good point about parents displaying some degree of favoritism for one child or another even if it's subconscious -- I wouldn't know b/c I'm an only child, but I am also in a peculiar position of getting a lot of favoritism and a lot of blame -- but let's look at the facts: Joffrey was a spoiled, psychopathic, craven monster, and Myrcella + Tommen were sweet, kind, children. Myrcella seems to be smarter than Tommen, but that may be because he is a little younger and has to do everything his mum tells him to do. It also doesn't help that she isn't giving him any tutoring on how to be a good king. However, he seems to have good instincts - he likes Marg's advice, enjoys the company of women, and thinks that learning to joust and be a warrior is important. In a lot of ways, that sounds like Jaime :)

I believe Cersei's concerns over Tommen come way before, since the moment where Tyrion ponders about her potential reaction to being separated from both Myrcella and Tommen comes during the times of the Battle of Blackwater.

[headtrip_honey]

Only answering number 1, but I saw an awesome comment on tumblr about Cersei's pain at Joff's death:

"Joff was a shit, but he was Cersei's shit."

Oh, and I've always loved this quote from AFFC:

Her son was attended by his kittens. As she watched the cats frolic about his feet, Cersei felt a little better. No harm will ever come to Tommen whilst I still live. She would kill half the lords in Westeros and all the common people, if that was what it took to keep him safe.

—George R.R. Martin, A Feast for Crows, Chapter 36

[Zar Lannister]

2) ?

I'm trying to organize a Cersei Lannister arc read. But her only POVs are in AFFC and in ADWD. During most of the saga, she is a Non-POV character. I know a lot of her interactions in ACoK are with Tyrion and Sansa, yet I was wondering what Chapters from AGoT could be included in her arc read.

[1234567]

I'm trying to organize a Cersei Lannister arc read. But her only POVs are in AFFC and in ADWD. During most of the saga, she is a Non-POV character. I know a lot of her interactions in ACoK are with Tyrion and Sansa, yet I was wondering what Chapters from AGoT could be included in her arc read.

Hmmm Tyrion's chapter after Bran fell, when he sees Cersei and Jaime at breakfast. A small part from Sansa's first chapter. Eddard's chapter where the fate of Lady is discussed as Jaime's comments in AFFC give a lot of insights into that. Eddard's chapter where he meets her in the Godswood, Tyrion's chapter where he talks to Tywin and Tywin wonders what the hell is going on in KL.

[Lemon Cake]

I reckon she really does love her children, but because they are her blood, not because she likes them or finds them enjoyable.

That is precisely how I see it, too.

But then, I've known some parents like that IRL as well, sad to say.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

IMO Cersei did genuinely love Joff, at least, the way most mothers love their children. There is a mention in AFFC where she remembers the first time she nursed him; how he was the most beautiful thing she had ever seen and how no man had ever made her feel as wonderful as she did at that moment. I was actually a little surprised that she nursed him herself, but it appears that in GRRM's world, wet nurses are used only in extremity, rather than as a convenience for those who can afford them as was the case in our world for so many centuries.

There is also her reaction to allowing Myrcella to be sent away, and her reaction when she thinks Tommen is choking at his wedding. I think Cersei does love her kids. Aside from her basic carelessness in giving birth to three bastards who could pay with their lives if their true paternity is revealed and believed, the vast majority of her actions are those of a woman who genuinely loves her children. I think it is only even debated because the ability to love selflessly seems so incongruous with many of her other characteristics. She has been portrayed as such a sociopath in many other ways, and our natural instinct is to assume that a sociopath could not possibly be a loving mother (and with reason; I have known a sociopathic mother and to say that her kids were no priority of hers is a vast understatement). But in Cersei, it is just not that simple or clear cut. She can love, even if the ability is somewhat stunted, or inappropriately focused at times.

[Zar Lannister]

Ultimately, Cersei does seem to dwell in her thirst for power and the love for her children. But I remember clearly she would be willing to step back into the Rock and claim power on her own and leave Tommen be as King (well, not right at that moment, it's a theoretical future plan she ponders about in AFFC).

[Revan Baratheon]

Uh why exactly would I want to appreciate this bitch? :dunno:

I can appreciate her POV's though ;)

[Miryana]

Just because you love your children it doesn't mean you're a good mother. Cersei's love seems to be the love of the parent who sees the success of her children as validation of herself. The details of their personalities are irrelevant (Joffrey was good because he was strong-willed, except when he didn't do as she told - right, that's his one flaw...). That's why I'm interested in her thoughts on Myrcella. People who've reread more often - could you point to any passages where thinks about Myrcella as a person, or any incidents in their past? I can't recall any, just some generic references.

Also, this has been bothering me since it's become so prominent in ASOIAF/GOT fanart - what is so awesome about her telling Robert he should be the one in skirts? To me that was just a display of Cersei's stunning arrogance, with a side dish of her usual contempt for femininity or women other than herself. Whatever Robert may have become, once he was a legitimately exceptional warrior who won a kingdom. Cersei also thinks she's braver than Jaime, another exceptional warrior. Based on what? She's not Arya or Brienne or a Mormont lady, ready to train despite the scorn women warriors face. It's just an expression of her confidence in her innate superiority (if she had trained, she would be the awesomest ever - I'm reminded of Lady Catherine de Bourgh talking about masterful she would have been had she played the piano). We see how that works out when she gets to rule the way she wants to and reality refuses to shape itself around her view of what it is. Even if Cersei had been a man, what guarantee is there that she would have been an all-time great like Robert or Jaime? Maybe she wouldn't have had the self-discipline to practice. Maybe even practice wouldn't have made her more than average. So in the end, I don't find anything admirable about that quote at all.

[Raksha the Demon]

Myrcella does seem to be Cersei's afterthought; perhaps that's the reason why she seems to be the best of our Lioness' three cubs - beautiful, intelligent, poised, adaptable and not particularly vicious. I hope that the attack on her, and the resulting mutilation, don't embitter Myrcella. That is, of course, if she is allowed to live.

I think Cersei definitely believes she loves her children. It is interesting that she displays no particular interest in Tommen until after Joffrey's death; but she is definitely concerned for his welfare, in part because she saw Joffrey die. I don't like Cersei or Joffrey as individuals; but no mother should have to watch their child die. And Joffrey was Cersei's mirror in masculine form, as well as her revenge on Robert and her ticket to continued power.

Perhaps Cersei doesn't seem to get too close to Myrcella because she knows on some level that her daughter will marry and leave her some day? Or Myrcella might possess an independence of spirit and never seemed to have as great an emotional need for her mother as her siblings do? And also, in terms of future importance, Myrcella ranked lower in power value than her two brothers...

[Miryana]

I agree about Myrcella. Tommen is a sweet boy, but Myrcella seems more actively insightful for her age, and considerate too. But even though people have presented alternative interpretations of the prophecy, it's most likely that they're doomed to die before Cersei.

Since Cersei focused on Joffrey when he lived, I also agree that tendency might have something to do with Myrcella's absence from her thoughts. Joffrey was going to get everything Cersei didn't get and felt she deserved. Myrcella was a girl. If she was the only remaining child, I believe Cersei would start fighting to make her queen, but as long as she has brothers (first Joffrey, now Tommen) she's not going to serve as the embodiment of Cersei's dreams.

This may have been discussed before, but I think there are going to be some Stoneheart and Cersei parallels. Catelyn saw her last remaining (as she thought) child killed before her eyes and became driven by vengeance. Cersei might also end up seeing her three children killed. But while Stoneheart, for all the bashing she gets, has given trials and considered evidence when hanging Lannister/Frey supporters, Cersei might just be extreme about her revenge and decide to blow up all of King's Landing.

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm still hoping that Myrcella will get a reprieve by being in Dorne or betrothed to Trystane; but who knows. I'm almost certain that Tommen will be killed, which is a shame. I could see Cersei going postal after his death and setting off wildfires all over King's Landing; the only structure left for Aegon or Daenerys might be the Iron Throne, with the surrounding palace in ruins.

[1234567]

Cersei's reaction to her children's deaths (unfortunately I think Myrcella and Tommen are doomed and it's going to be horrible) may Indeed push her over the edge, but it may also make the reader feel incredibly sorry for her. I hate her character, but I still found myself appalled by her "Walk" and rooting for her to eventually get revenge on those vile Septas.

[Bayard]

aham, so how exactly do we get a topic deleted? :devil:

[ElizaMartell]

How do you think Cercei will react to Kevan's death in WoW?

[1234567]

How do you think Cercei will react to Kevan's death in WoW?

For some reason the song Ain't no stopping us now just popped into my head. :laugh:

I imagine it will make her suspect the Tyrells of further treachery and make her even more fearful for Tommen's safety.

[ElizaMartell]

For some reason the song Ain't no stopping us now just popped into my head. :laugh:

I imagine it will make her suspect the Tyrells of further treachery and make her even more fearful for Tommen's safety.

Hmm, she'd either suspect the Tyrells because of the blatant attempt to copy Tywin's death with the crossbows (but still not ruling out the Tyrell link) or try to do some detective work Cercei style! :)