Did Quentyn Succeed? [Spoilers]

[Fearsome Fred]

GRRMs words in the SSM do imply that Dany's survival in the pyre was a special event, and any other episode of fire immunity, whatever that may be, will also have to be a special event.

It was SelaBela ManyFacedOne who first pointed out that GRRM's words did not necessarily rule out other special events. I expressed agreement with SelaBela ManyFacedOne.

Turns out she was right.

I'm sure many ppl have adjusted their views, like me, after reading it. Ther is no shame in it.

Calling Fearsome Fred a hypocrite is more fun, obviously.

[FanTasy]

However, it is easy to see what purpose Quentyn being alive will serve. It has been foreshadowed that each dragon will get its own rider. We are now at the end of book 5, and the only mount-rider pairing we see any hint of is Drogon and Dany.

If my theory is correct, then TWO dragons already have their riders; and we are now only waiting (perhaps) for Rhaegal and Tyrion to hitch up.

Which foreshadowing are you referring to? I can recall two bits of text:

- the dragon has three heads, no dragons (plural) here

- Jorah proposing to Dany suggesting she can take multiple husbands

I see a lot of posts on this boards speculating about three dragonriders. Well, that is fun. When in the mood I happily join the speculations.

But if I look at the text I only recall a single dragon, with three heads, no riders.

I can easily have missed the foreshadowing you are referring to. Would appreciate a quote so I can :read:

[Fearsome Fred]

Which foreshadowing are you referring to? I can recall two bits of text:

- the dragon has three heads, no dragons (plural) here

That's part of it, of course.

- Jorah proposing to Dany suggesting she can take multiple husbands

I was not really counting that.

Another part I have in mind comes from aDwD 50/Dany 8 (bantam hb 670).

Quentyn and Dany are talking:

"You ... you mean to ride them?"

"One of them. All I know of dragons is what my brother told me when I was a girl, and some I read in books, but it is said that even Aegon the Conqueror never dared mount Vhagar or Meraxes, nor did his sisters ride Balerion the Black Dread. Dragons live longer than men, some for hundreds of years, so Balerion had other riders after Aegon died ... but no rider ever flew two dragons."

Nor is this the first we heard about Aegon and his sisters, 3 dragonriders.

I am sure there is more.

Please also note that there is ultimately little point to these 3 dragons if they do not somehow reach Westeros. How is that going to happen now? They cannot be chained up and transported by ship, at this point. Someone is going to have to learn to control them. And, based on what Dany tells us, that is apparently going to have to be some 3 people. She's got her hands full with Drogon.

[Fearsome Fred]

But if I look at the text I only recall a single dragon, with three heads, no riders.

Context would seem to indicate that the 3 heads of the dragon are 3 people, not 3 dragons nor a literal dragon with 3-heads. I am not the first to make the analogy to Aegon and his sisters, the 3 dragonriders. The 3-headed dragon that is the symbol of House Targaryen was obviously inspired by Aegon & his sisters.

It obviously does not refer merely to Targs. Targs, in and of themselves, are just not that special or unusual.

[FanTasy]

There are three dragons at large. Dany will want to ride Drogon, I suppose. I doubt she will let anyone ride her two other dragons, if she can prevent it. But that's a hunch, Why would she let Quentin (assuming he is alive and kicking) ride one of her dragons? She may not dislike him but why would he be useful to her?

Of course there is room for doubt if Viserion and Rhaegal would let even Dany ride them. They may not like that she was the one who lured them into that dungeon and chained them.

[Fearsome Fred]

There are three dragons at large. Dany will want to ride Drogon, I suppose. I doubt she will let anyone ride her two other dragons, if she can prevent it. But that's a hunch, Why would she let Quentin (assuming he is alive and kicking) ride one of her dragons? She may not dislike him but why would he be useful to her?

For the same reason that Aegon's sisters were valuable to Aegon: Because they could control dragons, and a controlled dragon is a weapon of war. And Dany, like Aegon, wants to conquer Westeros. Three dragons are better than one. But even if she could conquer Westeros with Drogon alone, she does not want to abandon her other "children" in Essos.

As Dany makes perfectly clear, she WANTS to ally with Quentyn. If only he had brought an army, and not just himself and 2 warriors, she would have picked him over that other husband in 2 seconds flat. Well, a controlled dragon is as good as an army.

She suggests this to Quentyn when she took him to see her dragons:

"The dragon has three heads," Dany said when they were on the final flight. "My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here."

"For you," said Quentyn, all awkward gallantry.

"No," said Dany. "For fire and blood."

Then she shows him the dragons, and they have the conversation I described earlier, about how she can only hope to ride one of the 3 dragons.

Then Quentyn starts talking about Water Gardens. Dany seems disappointed, leads him away from the dragon pit, and tells him to go home.

But (as later events show) Quentyn eventually figures out what she was hinting at.

[Fearsome Fred]

I think Quentyn is dead, if only for the fact that I can see no purpose in what faking his death would serve [...]

I said before I would not speculate on GRRM's reasons for fooling the reader. But I can suggest a possible answer.

In one word, the answer is: "Eucatastrophe".

A "eucatastrophe" is a surprise happy ending. It is the resolution to the climax of a story (or, in this case, a story arc), in which things suddenly work out for the hero, after seeming to get worse and worse and worse.

It's like Brody versus the Shark. Brody just keeps losing and losing and losing, and the shark keeps winning and winning and winning. And then suddenly, the shark blows up. That's a good example of "eucatastrophe".

Or when the heroes are making a desperate last stand, and then suddenly, the cavalry shows up in the nick of time. That's eucatastrophe.

But obviously, the readers of the story cannot EXPECT the cavalry. Similarly, it should not be too obvious that the shark will blow up. That spoils the suprise. Without surprise, there is no eucatastrophe.

Things are getting pretty bad for our heroes in Meereen. Quentyn & Viserion may be the cavalry, or part of the cavalry, that shows up just when things seem most hopeless. But you cannot expect the cavalry, when you think the cavalry is dead.

[Ran]

Okay, how about this: Quentyn uses High Valyrian only with some difficulty; he's a bit more familiar with the Volantene dialect. When he's suffering and in horrendous pain, what language do you think he's likely to use? His birth tongue -- the Common Tongue of Westeros.

The Tattered Prince is a learned Pentoshi. He uses classical, High Valyrian to his troops, and doubtless is fluent in the low dialect of Pentos, his birthplace. It's not really even clear that he speaks the Common Tongue. What language is he likely to speak when dying and suffering horribly? Some form of Valyrian.

The burned man on the bed? He speaks a few words, even occasionally makes requests. If he was saying them all in Valyrian, it would have been noted, because it'd be so damned weird. Ergo, he spoke the Common Tongue... and only Quentyn would do that.

Besides that, one more point: the body of a fit young 20-year-old is going to look notably different than an "old man" of 60's, no matter how fit he is for his age. And Quentyn's not just "average" -- he's short, he's stocky, he's got a big jaw. Maybe the Tattered Prince is more "average"... but he's not a clone of Quentyn Martell, right? And there's that bit about him being tall in the saddle, take it for what you will.

So, I'm quite sure there's nothing to this malarky.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Okay, how about this: Quentyn uses High Valyrian only with some difficulty; he's a bit more familiar with the Volantene dialect. When he's suffering and in horrendous pain, what language do you think he's likely to use? His birth tongue -- the Common Tongue of Westeros.

The Tattered Prince is a learned Pentoshi. He uses classical, High Valyrian to his troops, and doubtless is fluent in the low dialect of Pentos, his birthplace. It's not really even clear that he speaks the Common Tongue. What language is he likely to speak when dying and suffering horribly? Some form of Valyrian.

The burned man on the bed? He speaks a few words, even occasionally makes requests. If he was saying them all in Valyrian, it would have been noted, because it'd be so damned weird. Ergo, he spoke the Common Tongue... and only Quentyn would do that.

Besides that, one more point: the body of a fit young 20-year-old is going to look notably different than an "old man" of 60's, no matter how fit he is for his age. And Quentyn's not just "average" -- he's short, he's stocky, he's got a big jaw. Maybe the Tattered Prince is more "average"... but he's not a clone of Quentyn Martell, right? And there's that bit about him being tall in the saddle, take it for what you will.

So, I'm quite sure there's nothing to this malarky.

STOP MAKING SENSE!

Don't you know he is the Tattered Prince? TP for short? Which ALSO stands for toilet paper? Obviously it wasn't Quentin burned alive from by the dragon, IT WAS A ROLL OF TOILET PAPER! Obviously, that is why he caught fire so quickly. Also, he totally only spoke the common tongue because he was store brand.

[Ashen Shugar]

Not on board with this but there are a few holes in the arguements but forth against it.

That martin said it was a "one time only" event for one. The problem being that at the time he said that, Dany had already shown a resistance to fire, twice.

Secondly, that from what we see from Quentyns last point of view, he is almost certainly dead. Well you could say the same about Jon but nearly everyone is convinced he is still alive. Because everyone is assuming that he has a bigger part to play. Fred is assuming Quentyn has a bigger part to play, even though I disagree I can see why he thinks it.

As for the language issue, it is a good point but at the same time.. It's really not that strange that he would speak the local tongue.

[Ran]

I speak Spanish and Swedish besides English, but I'm pretty damned sure I'd be speaking English (even in a Swedish hospital) if I'm dying the horrible death Quentyn was dying. I don't see how it makes sense he'd be speaking a learned language which he has a shaky grasp on over his native tongue in that situation. Because Missandei is attending him? She's fluent in the Common Tongue, and would surely have been speaking to him in that language.

[solarbear]

Interesting theory. Makes sense using the logic, why did grrm waste so many pages on Quentin only to kill him... the whole thing reeked of pointlessness.

[Fearsome Fred]

Okay, how about this: Quentyn uses High Valyrian only with some difficulty; he's a bit more familiar with the Volantene dialect. When he's suffering and in horrendous pain, what language do you think he's likely to use? His birth tongue -- the Common Tongue of Westeros.

His "birth tongue" is probably the tongue of his mother, Mellario of Norvos. Norvos, like all the free cities, speaks a variant of Valyrian. This could be what is meant by "the Volantene dialect"; since Norvos is upriver from Volantia; or it may be that Quentyn speaks two or more dialects of Valyrian, including Volantene, Norvosi and some "Old High Valyrian". How close these are to the Pentoshi dialect is anyone's guess.

I have no clue which language he would use if he were suffering or in horrendous pain. Perhaps he would respond in whatever language he was being spoken to.

The Tattered Prince is a learned Pentoshi.

According to rumor. But he could be anybody, really.

He uses classical, High Valyrian to his troops,

Which is irrelevant, as it tells us nothing about his native tongue.

and doubtless is fluent in the low dialect of Pentos, his birthplace.

We know nothing about his birthplace. Even if he is (as rumored) a Pentoshi nobleman, he might still have been born elsewhere. Quentyn is a Dornish nobleman, and he was apparently born and/or to some extent raised in Norvos, to a Norsosi mother.

It's not really even clear that he speaks the Common Tongue.

Nor is it clear that he doesn't.

What language is he likely to speak when dying and suffering horribly? Some form of Valyrian.

I don't know. You apparently don't know either. Probably both princes would speak "some form of Valyrian".

The burned man on the bed? He speaks a few words, even occasionally makes requests. If he was saying them all in Valyrian, it would have been noted, because it'd be so damned weird. Ergo, he spoke the Common Tongue... and only Quentyn would do that.

If the Prince spoke some dialect of Valyrian, why would Missandei think that was weird? Quentyn Martell's mother is Norvosi.

Besides that, one more point: the body of a fit young 20-year-old is going to look notably different than an "old man" of 60's, no matter how fit he is for his age.

How? How would this determination be made? By counting the grey hairs on his chest? They've all been burnt off. Would Missandei really say to Barristan: "Something is wrong; he can't be 18; he does not have enough muscles." How many muscles would Misandei assume an 18 year old ought to have? Why would Missandei assume that Quentyn was "fit". Has she ever seen him fight? Has she ever seen him without a shirt? Does one normally assume that short, stockly-looking people are "fit".

And Quentyn's not just "average" -- he's short,

Tatters may be as well. I don't recall that we've ever seen him standing. Also, you might be interested to know that Whitney Cerak was four inches taller than Laura Van Ryn. Google those names if your curious.

he's stocky,

Maybe Tatters is as well.

he's got a big jaw.

Maybe Tatters does as well.

Maybe the Tattered Prince is more "average"... but he's not a clone of Quentyn Martell, right?

Beats me. In any event, his face was burnt off.

And there's that bit about him being tall in the saddle, take it for what you will.

Means nothing to me. To me "tall in the saddle" means you have a tall horse.

[iamthedave]

Context would seem to indicate that the 3 heads of the dragon are 3 people, not 3 dragons nor a literal dragon with 3-heads. I am not the first to make the analogy to Aegon and his sisters, the 3 dragonriders. The 3-headed dragon that is the symbol of House Targaryen was obviously inspired by Aegon & his sisters.

It obviously does not refer merely to Targs. Targs, in and of themselves, are just not that special or unusual.

It could refer to Targs. Combining various credible and semi-credible theories, it's possible that Jon and Tyrion are both Targs, and they could be the other two heads of the dragon. Not my personal belief, but a reasonable possibility (with Jon as fairly likely and Tyrion as an outside shot).

Means nothing to me. To me "tall in the saddle" means you have a tall horse.

I believe it means you have a longer upper body than usual, so that when you and other people are sitting a horse you seem taller than they do when otherwise you would seem shorter or the same height.

[Fearsome Fred]

I believe it means you have a longer upper body than usual, so that when you and other people are sitting a horse you seem taller than they do when otherwise you would seem shorter or the same height.

I don't think so. One source tells me it is just a reference to proper riding posture - to sitting up straight in the saddle.

Just out of curiosity - where in the books is he described as "tall in the saddle"?

[Nukelavee]

So, even tho all the weight of evidence is onthe side of Quentyn being dead, you prefer to grasp at straws?

[Fearsome Fred]

So, even tho all the weight of evidence is onthe side of Quentyn being dead, you prefer to grasp at straws?

I am exploring the possibility that he may be alive. Do you have a problem with that?

I think it is "grasping at straws" to assume an 11 year old girl is going to have a strong opinion about what language a Dornish prince ought to be speaking when he is dying in horrible pain.

[Nukelavee]

Well, problem in that I dispute the wieght of any "evidence" you present in favour of him surviving.

His narrative has him hit full on by dragonfire, and knowing he is on fire. That pretty much seals it.

Assuming Tatters was the Prince, and thatthe Prince wasn't really from Pentos, but that Quentyn spoke his mothers birth tongue (although women of his mother's rank don't actually spend much time with their children, that's what tutors and nurses are for), is grasping at straws.

I totally applaud you trying to make his chapters have a point or value, I'd like to see some too. But...Any real value to Quentyn's story is in the details of his trip and observations. Or as filler.

[Ran]

Fearsome Fred,

His "birth tongue" is probably the tongue of his mother, Mellario of Norvos...

Uh. No. He was born and raised in Dorne. Noble women don't personally take care of their children 24/7, no matter how attached they might be. What a strange notion.

There's no evidence he even speaks the Norvoshi dialect. Each of the Free Cities has its own dialect, as Tyrion notes -- "nine dialects" on their way to becoming their own language -- so his knowledge of Volantene says nothing of his knowledge of Norvoshi.

[iamthedave]

I am exploring the possibility that he may be alive. Do you have a problem with that?

I would say otherwise. You're not exploring the possibility, rather proposing increasingly complex circumstances by which Quentyn can be alive. Occam's backpack at work yet again. I certainly have no problem with exploring possibilities, interpretations and suchlike, but it does bother me a little when people propose extremely bizarre theories seemingly for no other reason than proposing them will kill some time while we wait for the next book.

Quentyn Martell is one of the deadest characters in the books. There's a bigger chance of Ned Stark being alive. We don't see Ned die in his own POV. We DO see Quent die in his own POV.

Really, for this to have much grounding you need to first answer the question 'why?'

Why should Quentyn be alive? What purpose does his living serve versus what purpose does his death serve? The idea of Quentyn Martell coming flying into the rescue on the back of a dragon seems more like a parody of this board's greatest fears for the series' narrative than an actual idea.