R+L=J v.19

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My guess is that the Targaryens employed people from all over their realm in their household. Wylla is just one of those household trusted servants that Rhaegar used. Perhaps she is part of his household on Dragonstone that he brings with him to King's Landing and later on to the Tower of Joy. She ends up in Dorne as a wet nurse to the heir of Starfall, but that doesn't mean she starts there.

We're talking about a feudal society with very limited mobility for most common people. They're born somewhere, they live and work there and they die there. The only household and family that Wylla is ever linked to are the Daynes and Starfall. Not Rhaegar, not Dragonstone, not King's Landing and not the Sisters. Starfall and the Daynes. That's it.

Why is it that Martin uses the name Wylla for other characters from this region and nowhere else?

To get people like you to follow the red herring trail? :P

Why would a obscure Lord from the Sisters corroborate a story that looks more and more like a cover story to obscure Jon's origins?

I'm sorry, when did this lord ever say that the fisherman's daughter was named Wylla? You're letting Manderly's granddaughter get you from A to C with no evidence of B. Would you be saying this if his daughter had a different name? And how do you square the fact that Jon would have to have been conceived after Ned married Catelyn, when he was in the Sisters at least a few months before that? If Ned could fudge Jon's age to the point where he could have been fathered before Ned was married, why would Ned put on like he committed adultery? The adultery lie is a necessary stain on Ned's honor in order to explain how Jon was conceived/born when he was.

How is it that the people of Starfall, if their Lord is to be an example, seem to accept Wylla's story, but almost no one else has ever heard of her - again, possibly excepting Lord Godric?

When does Godric say that this Sisters woman was WYLLA?

And most importantly, why is Wylla telling this story if she isn't protecting Jon the same way Ned is? What is her interest in protecting Jon? Is it as Rhaegar's equivalent of "Old Nan" - a loyal servant that would die rather than give over his son to be butchered?

I imagine that she IS protecting Jon and is at least somewhat "in on" the plot. I myself think she was probably Lyanna's wet nurse and/or midwife. She might have had a bond with Jon, having nursed and delivered him. As long as she says she's his mother if she's asked, there isn't anything she has to give up in order to put on the ruse. Ned would have come to Starfall from the Tower of Joy with Wylla and the newborn Jon, so there's your explanation on that front. And if Wylla had been at the Tower tending to Lyanna, that absence could also be explained as her being off with Ned.

Wylla is not Jon's biological mother. And riddle me this — if she is, why is it such a big secret? Ned can dodge Robert on the subject, but why not tell Jon? What is so sensitive about Wylla that Ned couldn't sit down one day and tell Jon — or Catelyn — who his mother is? It only makes sense for it to be a secret kept even from Jon if the truth is incredibly sensitive and/or dangerous. Fathering Jon on a common servant ain't exactly that.

You're giving yourself fits over the timeline because you're tricking yourself into thinking that Wylla and the woman whom Godric mentions are the same. There is no evidence of this.

[Lady Octarina]

Well, one thing is certain: in the unlikely event Godric is part of the cover up story (and I really don't see why Ned would trust him unless he really had something to do with saving his life), then we'll have another obscure lord to confirm Jon's identity when the time comes. I'm not sure how useful that would be, but better than old Howland isolated, non?

[The Sunset King]

Looks like based on what?

We know that Aegon converted to the seven to make his conquest easier.

We know that there was at least one (Maegor), maybe more (according to GRRM), post-Aegon polygamous Targs, who we have to assume also followed the seven. Why would we assume that there is the religious rites cannot work for them?

The religion of the seven doesn't apparently normally agree with polygamy, but it seems that they made exceptions (or it didn't matter for the ceremonies even though the official church line is against polygamy) for Targaryen royalty before.

Since the religion of the Seven did not agree with polygamy there are two possibilities as to how the Targaryens practiced it while on the throne: Either they did it without public and religious consent, relying instead on power and force, or they compelled the religious institutions to make exceptions or change their doctrine (at least temporarily).

There are no clear sources on the matter but one of the SSMs mentions, in response to a question about polygamy, that the Targaryens were defying convention as well as the leadership of the faith of the Seven when doing it:

However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

Not definite, but this makes it seems more like these polygamous marriages lacked the overt approval of the High Septons and other key clerics. Thus, it is not clearly evident that any Septons were necessarily involved in them (although it does remain possible that they might have been). Also of importance, the reign of Baelor I saw an increased effort to make the dynasty adhere to the precepts of the Andal religion and a general move toward more Andal-like behavior by the Targs. Given Baelor’s strict adhere to the religion of the Seven, as well as the fact that the last dragon died before his reign, it is reasonable to think that the religious institutions made moves toward checking practices they deemed unacceptable. If Septons were performing such marriages for Targaryens (and, apparently, only for Targs), they likely stopped at this point in time. By the time Rhaegar came around, the Targ dynasty was much less powerful and could not easily force the realm to accept defiance of many social and political Andal customs. If Rhaegar did find a Septon willing to assist him it apparently was a secret that remained unknown to the High Septon and most of the realm.

With the Targaryens deposed there has been no effort to reinstate polygamy. This means that Rhaegar’s beliefs about the claims to the throne of children from Lyanna, if he did indeed marry her, would not universally be accepted and much of the aristocracy would have a vested interest in challenging it.

[Dragonfish]

@The Sunset King--

There is one major hole in your argument: incest. If the Faith was supposedly more strict about its tenets in the latter years of the Targaryen dynasty, then why were the Targaryens still free to practice incest? Note that incest, and not polygamy, was the whole reason there was a war between the Faith Militant and the Targaryens.

I really don't think the Faith was in any position to object to what the Targs were doing once the Faith Militant was disbanded. They were basically a neuteured institution until Cersei's reign, and would have done whatever the Targaryens demanded they do. The real obstacle to re-instituting polygamy, if that is indeed what Rhaegar intended to do, would have been the other lords. And while I admit that it would have been a hard pill for them to swallow, that doesn't mean that Rhaegar didn't believe he could do it. The man clearly had clout, and was clearly willing to flout social convention by running off with the betrothed daughter of a major norther lord. I see no reason to think why he wouldn't believe he could flout social convention again by re-insituting polygamy, especially if he thought it was necessary for the prophecy.

[The Sunset King]

Why the Faith would be willing to accept incest but not polygamy is indeed a problem and might suggest that it was forced to accept both. However, whereas there is evidence that they did perform marriages involving incest it still is not clear that they crossed the line into openly legitimizing the polygamous ones. It would be interesting to know for sure whether the any entity associated with the Faith actually performed such marriages in the same manner that they did with the incestuous ones. The reason that polygamy was not the issue (or main issue) in the war could either be that the Targaryens did not force the religious institutions to approve polygamous marriages or that the Faith acquiesenced on polygamy but not incest. Without more specific evidence it is hard to be sure. It would seem like the Faith would be more opposed to incest than polygamy, although the general aristocracy's grip on the realm might actually be challenged more by the introduction of polygamy.

It is quite possible that the Faith became stricter after Baelor's reign (as the SSM quote seem to hint) but that incest was so entrenched that it could not be eradicated. It would not have necessarily stopped Rhaegar from practicing polygamy, it would just have made it harder for him to sell his actions to much of the nobility that already looked disfavorably upon such deeds. Whatever may be the case, both practices stopped after the Targaryens were removed.

I suspect what happened with Rhaegar is that he perfomed the first marriage according to the rites of the religion of the Seven and the second one according to Northern rites in front of a weirwood. This would have ensured secrecy and bought time for him to try to concoct some solution to the issue. He probably thought that he could somehow eventually convince the realm to accept it in a manner similar to how past Targaryen polygamy was forced on the realm. Whether he would have been successful though is difficult to say. At that point in time neither the Northerners nor the followers of the Seven would be very keen on seeing such rites be used for a form of marriage which they never really liked or accepted. Rhaegar was popular and might have been so convinced that the PTWP was coming that all the justification he needed would inevitably arrive in time.

Would Jon be a bastard in this scenario? Rhaegar and many of his supporters, apparently including the much of the kingsguard, would say no. Opponents of the Targaryens and many nobles, particularly after the overthrow of the dynasty, and subsequent justifications for the rebellion, might claim otherwise. The answer would say much about the person's willingness to accept a Targaryen restoration rather than a necessarily objective fact.

I agree that Rhaegar may have conducted two marriages in some form, though in what manner remains unclear, and probably believed that he could smooth over the problem by convincing the realm to accept it. I am not sure though that things would have gone nearly as well as Rhaegar had hoped if his plan had been put to the test.

[tlowrites]

Congrats to your first post :-)

I believe your line of thought is correct - in the matters of honour, Ned is very much like Stannis, and I don't see him going for a one-night affair, or even taking a temporary mistress. Besides, if he did, why keep silent about it? Naming a commoner as his son's mother would do no harm. Naming Ashara would be more problematic, but still, doable - especially to Robert, who was closer to him than a brother. Yet, the name Robert gets is Wylla - and he gets that name because he is the only person in Westeros entitled to command Ned to answer. That is very telling, IMHO.

What if Wylla was the wet nurse and we eventually find out that she's still alive?

And could confirm tht Jon is Lyanna's son.

Edit: Heh, I hadn't read the entire thread before I posted the above. Someone else mentioned the very same thing a few posts above this one!:)

[FanTasy]

I agree that Rhaegar probably conducted two marriages in some form, though in what manner remains unclear, and probably believed that he could smooth over the problem by convincing the realm to accept it. I am not sure though that things would have gone nearly as well as Rhaegar had hoped if his plan had been put to the test.

Well, he certainly had a lot of smoothing to do. Would he tell Lyanna before or after the alleged polygamous wedding ceremony, where she had to agree to marry him in one way or an other, that his father cooked her dad and strangled her brother?

[carmela28]

Wylla is not Jon's biological mother. And riddle me this — if she is, why is it such a big secret? Ned can dodge Robert on the subject, but why not tell Jon? What is so sensitive about Wylla that Ned couldn't sit down one day and tell Jon — or Catelyn — who his mother is? It only makes sense for it to be a secret kept even from Jon if the truth is incredibly sensitive and/or dangerous. Fathering Jon on a common servant ain't exactly that.

This, for me, is the most rational explanation of why Wylla is not Jon's mother. Forget about the logistics of who was where when. Ned keeps reflecting on the secrets he kept and the lies he told. Everyone already believes that he fathered a bastard so the secrets and lies must go way beyond that.

Well, he certainly had a lot of smoothing to do. Would he tell Lyanna before or after the alleged polygamous wedding ceremony, where she had to agree to marry him in one way or an other, that his father cooked her dad and strangled her brother?

Rhaegar, it seems, was a bit idealistic and maybe even naive. I agree that he had a lot of "smoothing" to do had he survived.

[The Sunset King]

Well, he certainly had a lot of smoothing to do. Would he tell Lyanna before or after the alleged polygamous wedding ceremony, where she had to agree to marry him in one way or an other, that his father cooked her dad and strangled her brother?

For reasons such as those and some other ones, the smoothing most likely would fail. It seems that Rhaegar's plan went up in smoke and that both R and L caused quite a few problems with their actions, if R + L in its orthodox interpretation is true.

Those that touch the PTWP prophecy have tended to end up with the fate that Marwyn warned about. Barristan was duly unimpressed by such obsessions and condemned the heeding of the woods witch's advice in Aerys's case. Perhaps yet again playing with this prophecy will be detrimental to other characters in the coming books.

[ipsuel]

<snip>

I suspect what happened with Rhaegar is that he perfomed the first marriage according to the rites of the religion of the Seven and the second one according to Northern rites in front of a weirwood. This would have ensured secrecy and bought time for him to try to concoct some solution to the issue.

<snip>

This would also be very convenient for us as readers since we could (at some point) watch the wedding through Bran's eyes.

[Fishay]

Going back to what was said a few pages ago about what could be in the Winterfell crypts, I wonder if anybody had ever tied Jon's dream to Bran's dream early in GoT.

Jon dream's that there is something in the crypts that he needs to see. Bran dreams, IIRC, of a stone dragon rising in ruins. I was thinking that this could possibly signify the truth of Lyanna (stone) being found by Jon to be a true Targaryen (dragon). Winterfell is sort of in ruins at this point, and may definately by the time Jon reaches Winterfell to go into the crypts.

Essentially the rising of the stone dragon would be the rising and releasing of the truth that Lyanna was a true Targaryen. This is totally assuming so many things that are purely guesswork are true, but I think it would be a really cool/interesting way of foreshadowing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Going back to what was said a few pages ago about what could be in the Winterfell crypts, I wonder if anybody had ever tied Jon's dream to Bran's dream early in GoT.

Jon dream's that there is something in the crypts that he needs to see. Bran dreams, IIRC, of a stone dragon rising in ruins. I was thinking that this could possibly signify the truth of Lyanna (stone) being found by Jon to be a true Targaryen (dragon). Winterfell is sort of in ruins at this point, and may definately by the time Jon reaches Winterfell to go into the crypts.

Essentially the rising of the stone dragon would be the rising and releasing of the truth that Lyanna was a true Targaryen. This is totally assuming so many things that are purely guesswork are true, but I think it would be a really cool/interesting way of foreshadowing.

In that case Jon would be the "stone dragon," not Lyanna. But yes several of us have that idea, that "dragon" means "Targaryen." It works the same way in the Dunk & Egg novellas, if you're familiar with those.

[the wolf warg]

when does jon have a dream like this i dont remember it? thats very interesting seems obvious its foreshadowing the fact that jon is a targ. thus the stone dragon rising from the crypt of the starks were lyannas body is buried

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Well, he certainly had a lot of smoothing to do. Would he tell Lyanna before or after the alleged polygamous wedding ceremony, where she had to agree to marry him in one way or an other, that his father cooked her dad and strangled her brother?

Not only that but her running away with him caused it.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that wylla would be the mom. Since he tells Robert that she is the mother. Eddard had been living with lies since Jon was born, so it would have to be something a lot bigger like another poster said.

[Brandyjane]

I'm not sure if this has been proposed before, but after reading through the last few pages of this thread, I had an idea about the identity of Jon's wet nurse. Could it be possible that Ashara was with Lyanna when she gave birth and that Ashara nursed Jon after her friend died?

If Ashara had recently lost a baby, as Barristan said, then she would still be capable of nursing another child as long as she started pretty soon after losing her own child. The Wylla who Edric Dayne mentions could have been a long-time member of the Dayne household, perhaps even Ashara's own nurse. If pressed to give a name while traveling with the baby, maybe she gave the name of her own nurse.

I'm not sure if Ashara really committed suicide, but I do think that if my theory is right, when Ned took Jon away from her and back to Winterfell, the loss of that child combined with her previous losses might have prompted her to take her own life.

Obviously I'm making a lot of assumptions, but I was wondering if anything contradicts this. I think it would tie up a lot of the other rumors.

[Ygrain]

Obviously I'm making a lot of assumptions, but I was wondering if anything contradicts this. I think it would tie up a lot of the other rumors.

TImeline. There are approximately two years between Harrenhall and ToJ.

[WhiteWolf26]

TImeline. There are approximately two years between Harrenhall and ToJ.

What does that have to do with it? Do we know when Ashara was knocked up and/or miscarried? It seems like she could have been pregnant at the same time as Lyanna. Barristans suggests she was knocked up at Harrenhal but thats mostly speculation.

[Lady Octarina]

What does that have to do with it? Do we know when Ashara was knocked up and/or miscarried? It seems like she could have been pregnant at the same time as Lyanna. Barristans suggests she was knocked up at Harrenhal but thats mostly speculation.

I agree, and I've always wondered (considering the Ashara = Lemore theory to be true) if she couldn't have left Westeros exactly because of whatever part she played in the R+L=J story, as a way to protect the kid, to whom she would have gotten attached after breast-feeding him.

[Ygrain]

What does that have to do with it? Do we know when Ashara was knocked up and/or miscarried? It seems like she could have been pregnant at the same time as Lyanna. Barristans suggests she was knocked up at Harrenhal but thats mostly speculation.

There is apparently some connection between Ashara's dishonour and the Starks, and Harrenhall or shortly afterwards is the only time, since soon after that, Brandon is dead and Ned in the Vale and escaping to the North to raise his banners. I don't think there was any reasonable point during the rebellion when Ned and Ashara could have met a second time, since Ashara must have been either with Elia at KL, or back home at Starfall.

Besides, since Ashara's child was (supposedly) stillborn, she never developed lactation. While the production of first "milk" in breasts immediately after the birth is started by hormones, you need a suckling babe (or something imitating the mechanism) to actually trigger and maintain the full-scale production.

[Brynden Bloodraven]

Could it be that Ashara's apparent suicide was related only to the news that the Sword of Morning had been slain, and the miscarriage rumor is only gossip?