R+L=J v.19

[Buried Treasure]

It does if a person doesn't have any magic. Magic is rare enough that the presumption is always that a person does not have magic unless proven otherwise.

[Ygrain]

It does if a person doesn't have any magic. Magic is rare enough that the presumption is always that a person does not have magic unless proven otherwise.

:agree:

There are absolutely no hints about anything distantly resembling magic around YG and his companions. Furthermore, if Lemore had such powerful means as to mask the colour of her eyes, why have YG colour his hair when they simply could have used some glamour to change his appearance?

[Lady Octarina]

:agree:

There are absolutely no hints about anything distantly resembling magic around YG and his companions. Furthermore, if Lemore had such powerful means as to mask the colour of her eyes, why have YG colour his hair when they simply could have used some glamour to change his appearance?

Because she didn't want the others to know she had such abilities? I'm not saying she does, only it's not impossible she found a way to change her eye-color. Though I'd rather stick with the idea that Tyrion simply didn't think they were worth mentioning or something.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm not sure, if a kid is born with dark hair, can it become blonde later?

I agree that Starfall definitely provided for ToJ, and this was probably how news reached ToJ, since I doubt that Rhaegar made his hideout known to maesters. - Which brings up the question: who at KL kept Starfall informed? And, how did Ned learn about ToJ in the first place?

Well, my Dad was the opposite.

He was born with curly, blonde locks like a girl, (until his first haircut), but he died with dark brown hair.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm not sure, if a kid is born with dark hair, can it become blonde later?

I agree that Starfall definitely provided for ToJ, and this was probably how news reached ToJ, since I doubt that Rhaegar made his hideout known to maesters. - Which brings up the question: who at KL kept Starfall informed? And, how did Ned learn about ToJ in the first place?

Well, my Dad was the opposite.

He was born with curly, blonde locks like a girl, (until his first haircut), but he died with dark brown hair.

I think Ashara tipped Ned off.

Perhaps Arthur sent for her, and maybe even a Maester since Lyannas condition was going critical.

If Ashara thought, or new Lyanna couldn't be saved, she may have decided to let Ned know so he could say goodbye, and get Jon.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

It does if a person doesn't have any magic. Magic is rare enough that the presumption is always that a person does not have magic unless proven otherwise.

That's true, but I was thinking of some more conventional way of eye color changing, like regular old contacts. I wasn't thinking of Glamour, which would seemingly have a dead give away of the bracelet.

[Ygrain]

Well, my Dad was the opposite.

He was born with curly, blonde locks like a girl, (until his first haircut), but he died with dark brown hair.

I was nearly blonde when very little myself, and curly - and here I go, straight mousy brown :-)

I think Ashara tipped Ned off.

Perhaps Arthur sent for her, and maybe even a Maester since Lyannas condition was going critical.

If Ashara thought, or new Lyanna couldn't be saved, she may have decided to let Ned know so he could say goodbye, and get Jon.

If it was Ashara who tipped ned, it makes a good plot twist, since her action resulted in her brother's death (a profound reason for suicide, if you ask me)

However, if Ned as actually sent for, why did the KG fight him? Surely, Lyanna knew her brother well enough to know he poised no danger for her - or maybe, in the light of the news from KL, the KG decided not to take any risks concerning Jon.

That's true, but I was thinking of some more conventional way of eye color changing, like regular old contacts. I wasn't thinking of Glamour, which would seemingly have a dead give away of the bracelet.

"Old" contacts are a fairly modern invention. Given that the concept of glasses is far beyond the common level of technology in Westeros, I don't think they would master anything as tricky as contact lenses (and here we're talking just about colour change, not eye defect adjustment).

Because she didn't want the others to know she had such abilities? I'm not saying she does, only it's not impossible she found a way to change her eye-color. Though I'd rather stick with the idea that Tyrion simply didn't think they were worth mentioning or something.

Which is why I think her eyes must have been some common colour, since purple eyes in the presence of YG would draw attention.

[Alia of the knife]

I was nearly blonde when very little myself, and curly - and here I go, straight mousy brown :-)

If it was Ashara who tipped ned, it makes a good plot twist, since her action resulted in her brother's death (a profound reason for suicide, if you ask me)

However, if Ned as actually sent for, why did the KG fight him? Surely, Lyanna knew her brother well enough to know he poised no danger for her - or maybe, in the light of the news from KL, the KG decided not to take any risks concerning Jon.

"Old" contacts are a fairly modern invention. Given that the concept of glasses is far beyond the common level of technology in Westeros, I don't think they would master anything as tricky as contact lenses (and here we're talking just about colour change, not eye defect adjustment).

Which is why I think her eyes must have been some common colour, since purple eyes in the presence of YG would draw attention.

Well, with my red hair, I definitely can't wear fucshia. :ack:

As for Ashara tipping Ned off, perhaps Ashara didn't tell her Brother she was going for Ned.

And of course that is the tragedy, because it did inadvertently lead to her Brothers death.

In a way, it's not that different with Brandon, (who I think was the one who fathered her child), because could anyone, even his siblings have predicted he would have been such a hothead, or "gallant fool" as Hoster Tully called him, to not even wait and seek his Fathers counsil, but rather ride right into his own death?

Could Ashara have known it would come to that with her Brother?

Maybe she didn't know the extenuating circumstances yet, because Arthur kept it from her, and all she knew was that Lyanna was near death and Ned had been good and honorable to her, and probably would have still married her with the knowledge her child was his Brothers, because he loved her that much.

The KG were on "automatic" pilot at this point, and I don't think were in a talking mood, especially as Arthur was so devoted to Rhaegar. Perhaps Arthur even transferred some of that devotion, (and who knows, maybe even love), to Lyanna and was fierce in protecting both her and the child.

(He and Lyanna would have been alone alot after Rhaegar left, and while he might have developed romantic feelings for her, of all the men in the Kingdom, he took his honor and the KG seriously, but it doesn't mean there wasnt' something there in the abstract, like Selmy and Ashara).

Just to make it all more complicated. :D

[FanTasy]

I suspect GRRM has something upon his sleeve regarding the Daynes and the roles they may have played.

It is no coincidence I think that Arthur Dayne is described as a friend to Rhaegar and his sister being handmaiden for mrs. Rhaegar Targaryen née Martell. And her being connected to Ned Stark (I always thought the southron ambitions of Rickard included another joining of houses, Stark : Dayne, and that Ned was robbed of this because he had to stand in for Brandon to save the marriage contract with the Tully's).

Wouldn't it be a nice twist if both Dayne siblings had something to do with shielding Rhaegar's sons? :drunk:

[Born by Fire]

Jon's "legitimacy" to the throne (either through Rhaegar pronouncing him heir or some secret marriage following acceptable ritual/protocol) seems irrelevant to me. Dany has no legitimacy, yet she birthed dragons.

Jon's parentage is going to be important because he's got a huge destiny to play--and having both skinchanger AND dragon blood is going to be especially interesting.

[Dragonfish]

Dany has no legitimacy, yet she birthed dragons.

Since when is Dany not legitimate?

[Lady Octarina]

Since when is Dany not legitimate?

I don't know what Born by Fire thought when writing it, but when I read I assumed it was because she doesn't have the best claim.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know what Born by Fire thought when writing it, but when I read I assumed it was because she doesn't have the best claim.

Same here.

[Born by Fire]

_{Agreed, I probably shouldn't have said NO legitimacy, just not the best claim. She is female, and all the other possible male heirs would be in front of her claim to the throne. Aegon seeming to have the best claim (assuming he's the real deal). Jon would be after that (as second son). I'd say it's even arguable whether either Dany or Stannis follow thereafter--just as far as "best claims" go. The point is...Dany has dragons! I guess I'm less concerned about the Game of Thrones--it's seems rather unimportant to me whose butt ends up in the Iron seat. I'm much more interested in the Song of Ice and Fire...and I think the frontrunner for hero status there is Jon. And I really hope he and Dany end up on the same side eventually.}

[the Remarkable Other]

Slightly off topic. If R+L=J and Jon was born at the Tower of Joy, is his real (or at least intended) name Viserys Sand/Targaryen?

[Born by Fire]

You know, I also have to admit something else...it's not lost on me that there was a female Targ in the line of succession before. Obviously Rhaenyra qualifies. Both heir and a dragon rider--although she was ultimately defeated and eaten by a dragon :drool:

Perhaps it's time for the female to prevail in the next dragon war.

[Lady Jon Snow]

Not sure if this has been answered anywhere or not. But if Jon Snow is the child of R+L (which I totally believe), then is he still a bastard? Since Rheagar died at the Trident and Elia died at KL, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard (just Lyanna and Rheagar's)? Or am I getting the timeline wrong? Could Rheagar have married Lyanna? The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy stayed with Lyanna so they must have thought Jon was not only of Royal Blood but somehow of an imporatance to the throne or else they would have 1.) been at the Trident or 2.) been at KL with Ageon and Elia or 3.) gone to Dragonstone. Ned reflects on this in Book 1 and it's pretty evident that their duty was at the Tower of Joy... Thoughts?

[FanTasy]

Not sure if this has been answered anywhere or not. But if Jon Snow is the child of R+L (which I totally believe), then is he still a bastard? Since Rheagar died at the Trident and Elia died at KL, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard (just Lyanna and Rheagar's)? Or am I getting the timeline wrong? Could Rheagar have married Lyanna? The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy stayed with Lyanna so they must have thought Jon was not only of Royal Blood but somehow of an imporatance to the throne or else they would have 1.) been at the Trident or 2.) been at KL with Ageon and Elia or 3.) gone to Dragonstone. Ned reflects on this in Book 1 and it's pretty evident that their duty was at the Tower of Joy... Thoughts?

Hello lady Jon Snow. There is a theory discussed in this thread (and in the 18 before it) that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a polygamous marriage and that their child therefore was legitimate. There is no consensus, but there are some great posts on this forum considering this discussion.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not sure if this has been answered anywhere or not. But if Jon Snow is the child of R+L (which I totally believe), then is he still a bastard? Since Rheagar died at the Trident and Elia died at KL, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard (just Lyanna and Rheagar's)? Or am I getting the timeline wrong? Could Rheagar have married Lyanna? The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy stayed with Lyanna so they must have thought Jon was not only of Royal Blood but somehow of an imporatance to the throne or else they would have 1.) been at the Trident or 2.) been at KL with Ageon and Elia or 3.) gone to Dragonstone. Ned reflects on this in Book 1 and it's pretty evident that their duty was at the Tower of Joy... Thoughts?

A popular theory on here is that Rhaegar married Lyanna polygamously and that Jon is the real deal. Circumstantial evidence being, three Kingsguard would not stick around to guard a bastard if the "real king" was unprotected.

[Lykos]

This is probably off topic, but I´ve come to feel that the KG at the ToJ was not ordered there by Rhaegar.

They even wounded Lyanna fataly when Eddard arrived. No proof jet I´m still looking.