R+L=J v.19

[Ygrain]

Could it be that Ashara's apparent suicide was related only to the news that the Sword of Morning had been slain, and the miscarriage rumor is only gossip?

I think not, the rumour seems too widespread.

BTW, when did Ashara get back to Dorne? I'd presume she had to leave the court when, or even before, the pregnancy became visible. Could she still be there when Brandon was murdered?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think not, the rumour seems too widespread.

BTW, when did Ashara get back to Dorne? I'd presume she had to leave the court when, or even before, the pregnancy became visible. Could she still be there when Brandon was murdered?

Who else says she had a stillbirth/miscarriage? Only person I can think of is Barristan.

The rumor that she's Jon's mother seems to stem from the rumor that Ned and Ashara had a thing at Harrenhal, and not because Ashara was obviously known to be pregnant, per se.

[Buried Treasure]

Yeah, I'm also certain that we have not heard of Ashara having a stillbirth from anybody else.

I don't think Barristan heard about the supposed stillbirth through a rumour, but rather that he got it at first or second hand. As a member of the KG he was allowed to overhear to highly privileged information information and Ashara was at one point a companion to Elia. He might have overheard Elia having a conversation in the Red Keep or even been part of her escort if she visited Dorne and saw Ashara. That would, I think, point to Ashara being pregnant from Harrenhal as we know Barristan was involved in the war and would not have been guarding Elia then.

I've speculated before that it was Elia that had a stillbirth and Ashara had a boy that she secretly gave to Elia. It seems extremely unlikely but not I think impossible (if he inherited the Dayne features and hence 'looked like a Targaryen'). The beauty of this idea is that it allows for both Aegon being switched by Varys before the Sack AND Aegon being a fake.

[Ygrain]

I've jumbled a couple of things together, sorry. I meant that the rumour of Ashara having a child by Ned seems to be too widespread to be based on nothing (I can't imagine it coming from a single dance, there would have had to be something else we don't know about yet - though, one can never know: years ago, before my husband became my husband, a friend paid a visit and he met her at the bus stop. Before they made it through the village, they already had a kid and another on the way :-) ) and that her suicide was not related only to the death of her brother.

I can't remember, do we have a clue how much time was between the sack of KL and ToJ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I've jumbled a couple of things together, sorry. I meant that the rumour of Ashara having a child by Ned seems to be too widespread to be based on nothing (I can't imagine it coming from a single dance, there would have had to be something else we don't know about yet - though, one can never know: years ago, before my husband became my husband, a friend paid a visit and he met her at the bus stop. Before they made it through the village, they already had a kid and another on the way :-) ) and that her suicide was not related only to the death of her brother.

I can't remember, do we have a clue how much time was between the sack of KL and ToJ?

Oh OK, gotcha. :)

I think that Martin said that Jon was born roughly at the time of the Sack, up to a month after. If you figure that Ned rode down to Storm's End right after the Sack and then immediately after that to the Tower, to seems to fit decently.

I agree that the Ashara-Ned thing seems to be widespread enough. Here's my thinking on that:

1. Ashara had an affair at Harrenhal, but with Brandon, not Ned. Rumor and innuendo turned "Brandon Stark" to just "Stark" to "Ned Stark." It's possible that people like Cersei believed that Ned returning Dawn to Starfall had more to going on than just honoring the Dayne family. That act and Ashara's subsequent suicide — real or not — might have made people believe, in hindsight, that it was Ned whom Ashara slept with at Harrenhal.

2. The Ashara Dayne rumor was allowed to fester in the south, deliberately on Ned's part. I think that Ned had two contingencies when it came to Jon's mother. Wylla was the "official" story, the one he'd let people believe under normal circumstances. Ashara was the backup that he wouldn't confirm or deny. Reason being, we have at least two male Daynes who are fair-haired or have signs of fair hair: Edric and Gerold. We haven't had a description of Arthur, but I've seen fan art that assumes he had silvery-blond hair. The Daynes also have violet eyes. Ned had no good way of knowing which of his parents Jon would resemble when he got older. The Ashara contingency existed so that if Jon grew up to look like a Targaryen, people would write it off as being "proof" that he was really Ashara's son and got the fair hair from his male Dayne relatives and the eyes from his mother. It ended up not being needed — Jon looks like a Stark — but I think that's why the Ashara rumor was allowed to continue. As evidence that the Wylla rumor was really the "front-line" cover story, Edric Dayne thinks that Wylla, not Ashara, is Jon's mother.

3. I think it's highly likely that Ashara knew/knows the truth about Jon. Her brother was at the Tower and so, I believe, was Wylla, one of her servants. Starfall was likely the supplier/support base for the Tower of Joy, too. Assuming her suicide was really faked, I think the reasoning is twofold: It keeps her from having to answer questions about Jon, and it explains why Ned would have taken his bastard home with him instead of leaving him with his "mother," if the Ashara-as-Jon's-mother contingency ever had to "go into effect."

[Lady Octarina]

Yeah, I'm also certain that we have not heard of Ashara having a stillbirth from anybody else.

I don't think Barristan heard about the supposed stillbirth through a rumour, but rather that he got it at first or second hand. As a member of the KG he was allowed to overhear to highly privileged information information and Ashara was at one point a companion to Elia. He might have overheard Elia having a conversation in the Red Keep or even been part of her escort if she visited Dorne and saw Ashara. That would, I think, point to Ashara being pregnant from Harrenhal as we know Barristan was involved in the war and would not have been guarding Elia then.

I've speculated before that it was Elia that had a stillbirth and Ashara had a boy that she secretly gave to Elia. It seems extremely unlikely but not I think impossible (if he inherited the Dayne features and hence 'looked like a Targaryen'). The beauty of this idea is that it allows for both Aegon being switched by Varys before the Sack AND Aegon being a fake.

I like the idea Aegon might be Ashara's - and, if he is YG and she is Lemore... oh, the drama! lol

But your post led me to another line of thought... Barristan may have learned that from Elia, overheard a conversation between her and someone else (the queen?), but what if someone lied to Elia in the first place? No idea for what reason they would do that, but still, it's a possibility.

I can't remember, do we have a clue how much time was between the sack of KL and ToJ?

A few weeks?

[Ygrain]

I'm not sure, if a kid is born with dark hair, can it become blonde later?

I agree that Starfall definitely provided for ToJ, and this was probably how news reached ToJ, since I doubt that Rhaegar made his hideout known to maesters. - Which brings up the question: who at KL kept Starfall informed? And, how did Ned learn about ToJ in the first place?

[Ygrain]

I like the idea Aegon might be Ashara's - and, if he is YG and she is Lemore... oh, the drama! lol

But your post led me to another line of thought... Barristan may have learned that from Elia, overheard a conversation between her and someone else (the queen?), but what if someone lied to Elia in the first place? No idea for what reason they would do that, but still, it's a possibility.

The Lemore/Ashara theory is intriguing but Tyrion would definitely have noticed her purple eyes. Lemore could be simply some Targaryen loyalist in exile.

[Lady Octarina]

I'm not sure, if a kid is born with dark hair, can it become blonde later?

I've never heard of such a thing, though the opposite is very common. But was Jon born dark-haired, is that actually stated? (where would that be, Catelyn's description of her first arrival at Winterfell?)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Lemore/Ashara theory is intriguing but Tyrion would definitely have noticed her purple eyes. Lemore could be simply some Targaryen loyalist in exile.

I think that might be why Martin didn't have Tyrion note her eyes one way or the other. Doing so would have been a giveaway that Martin wasn't ready for. Does it not make sense that Tyrion wouldn't notice purple eyes? Yeah. But for narrative purposes, I can accept it.

I'm also intrigued by the idea that Aegon is like a ... double? triple? ... bluff: He's Ashara's son (probably with Brandon though, or at least, not with Ned), passed off to look like Elia's (Elia was shot when she had Rhaenys and couldn't carry another healthy pregnancy), then switched out (if there was actually a switch). But if he wasn't switched, then he'd be a Blackfyre pretending to be a Targaryen-who's-really-a-Dayne. Good grief I need a drink.

[Ygrain]

I've never heard of such a thing, though the opposite is very common. But was Jon born dark-haired, is that actually stated? (where would that be, Catelyn's description of her first arrival at Winterfell?)

I don't think it was ever stated, I was merely pondering options.

I think that might be why Martin didn't have Tyrion note her eyes one way or the other. Doing so would have been a giveaway that Martin wasn't ready for. Does it not make sense that Tyrion wouldn't notice purple eyes? Yeah. But for narrative purposes, I can accept it.

I'm also intrigued by the idea that Aegon is like a ... double? triple? ... bluff: He's Ashara's son (probably with Brandon though, or at least, not with Ned), passed off to look like Elia's (Elia was shot when she had Rhaenys and couldn't carry another healthy pregnancy), then switched out (if there was actually a switch). But if he wasn't switched, then he'd be a Blackfyre pretending to be a Targaryen-who's-really-a-Dayne. Good grief I need a drink.

Well, I _am_ already drinking, and I can assure you this n-ple bluff gives me headache, anyway.

Yeah, if he had Tyrion comment on her purple eyes, it would be telling. However, not having him notice... it would be lame. If we have an almost-purple-eyed boy and a purple-eyed woman with stretchmarks on her belly, one does not have to be a clever Imp to start getting ideas how and if these two might be related. It doesn't feel like GRRM, to omit such an observation because he doesn't know what to do about it. I am inclined to believe that Lemore's eyes are not purple, and therefore she cannot be Ashara.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, if he had Tyrion comment on her purple eyes, it would be telling. However, not having him notice... it would be lame. If we have an almost-purple-eyed boy and a purple-eyed woman with stretchmarks on her belly, one does not have to be a clever Imp to start getting ideas how and if these two might be related. It doesn't feel like GRRM, to omit such an observation because he doesn't know what to do about it. I am inclined to believe that Lemore's eyes are not purple, and therefore she cannot be Ashara.

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea that she's Ashara. My thinking is, if she's someone else besides just being a septa, then she's probably Ashara. But she could just be a septa. Sometimes a person is just a person.

[Lady Octarina]

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea that she's Ashara. My thinking is, if she's someone else besides just being a septa, then she's probably Ashara. But she could just be a septa. Sometimes a person is just a person.

I can agree with that, but YG's companions are such a strange lot it's very unlikely the septa is just a septa, or the Halfmaester is just a Halfmaester. I can't help feeling intrigued by them since they first appeared (the Halfmaester more than Lemore, really - until I entered these discussion boards, she wasn't Ashara to me), and it would feel like a betrayal if at least one of them wasn't otherwise important.

[kg1982]

3. I think it's highly likely that Ashara knew/knows the truth about Jon. Her brother was at the Tower and so, I believe, was Wylla, one of her servants. Starfall was likely the supplier/support base for the Tower of Joy, too. Assuming her suicide was really faked, I think the reasoning is twofold: It keeps her from having to answer questions about Jon, and it explains why Ned would have taken his bastard home with him instead of leaving him with his "mother," if the Ashara-as-Jon's-mother contingency ever had to "go into effect."

The only thing that concerns me about the whole Septa Lemore equals Ashara Dayne is that I believe that Ashara was the one who tipped off Ned and that she knew about the secret. Wouldn't she have mentioned this to Jon Connington? Because Connington is most definitely unaware of Jon Snow's existence. As is Varys for that matter.. Although perhaps Ashara was suspicious of Varys and didn't want to clue him in.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The only thing that concerns me about the whole Septa Lemore equals Ashara Dayne is that I believe that Ashara was the one who tipped off Ned and that she knew about the secret. Wouldn't she have mentioned this to Jon Connington? Because Connington is most definitely unaware of Jon Snow's existence. As is Varys for that matter.. Although perhaps Ashara was suspicious of Varys and didn't want to clue him in.

I definitely agree with the first part, that Ashara is the one who tipped Ned off about the Tower. How else would he have found it, and who else would have known about it to tip him off? This would also be a powerful motivation for her suicide if it's real: She led Ned to the Tower, which led to Arthur's death. My argument about her suicide being a good excuse for Ned to take Jon with him works whether the suicide was real or not, I think.

And yes that's one issue I have with the septa being Ashara — there's no evidence that Connington or anyone else knows the truth about Jon. Unless Ashara, out of respect to Ned, agreed not to tell anyone about that and has it "compartmentalized" separately from the whole Aegon angle.

[Lady Octarina]

And yes that's one issue I have with the septa being Ashara — there's no evidence that Connington or anyone else knows the truth about Jon. Unless Ashara, out of respect to Ned, agreed not to tell anyone about that and has it "compartmentalized" separately from the whole Aegon angle.

I don't think that's such a strong defense of Lemore being Lemore. If we assume she tipped Ned off about the ToJ and then agreed to disappear from Westeros to protect the kid, collaborating with his cover-up story simply through said disappearance, it's not that unlikely she would have chosen not to tell Connington about him, out of respect for Ned, or maybe for Rhaegar or Lyanna. I mean, Ned killed her brother, sure, but she probably understands why Arthur had to fight him anyway and what was at stake for both, and the kid was not to blame for anything. Besides, she might have reasoned that, if anything happened to YG, Rhaegar's other child would still be safe, almost no one would know about him. Not to mention that Jon Snow might be part of the reason she decided to help with the YG-issue anyway.

But again, it's all suppositions, we barely have any firmer ground to discuss all of this.

[Neo]

Wow, some excellent discussion here regarding Ashara and the possibility she is Young Griff's mother. I'd never though of that possibility at all, and as has been mentioned, this really makes things interesting if Lemore is Ashara.

One further point though, surely this would have an effect on Rhaegar's 'three-child' belief, and more specifically the wider prophecy of the three-headed dragon, as even if Jon Snow is a Targaryen through R + L = J, it would mean that Rhaegar still only had two natural children.

Would this mean that Jon could not be TPtwP, as he would not be the 'third head'? It also makes me wonder about Dany's vision in the House of the Undying where she clearly sees Rhaegar and what we are led to believe is Elia and a new-born Aegon. If Ashara was Aegon's mother, and Elia had a still-birth, both women would have had to have given birth at around the same time, and surely it would have been difficult for two women who had just given birth to arrange some kind of baby switch, especially in the Red Keep, and especially with people like Varys around.

[Jem]

Wow, some excellent discussion here regarding Ashara and the possibility she is Young Griff's mother. I'd never though of that possibility at all, and as has been mentioned, this really makes things interesting if Lemore is Ashara.

One further point though, surely this would have an effect on Rhaegar's 'three-child' belief, and more specifically the wider prophecy of the three-headed dragon, as even if Jon Snow is a Targaryen through R + L = J, it would mean that Rhaegar still only had two natural children.

Would this mean that Jon could not be TPtwP, as he would not be the 'third head'? It also makes me wonder about Dany's vision in the House of the Undying where she clearly sees Rhaegar and what we are led to believe is Elia and a new-born Aegon. If Ashara was Aegon's mother, and Elia had a still-birth, both women would have had to have given birth at around the same time, and surely it would have been difficult for two women who had just given birth to arrange some kind of baby switch, especially in the Red Keep, and especially with people like Varys around.

Here is a crackpot of mine from a few months ago about this http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56368-adwd-spoiler-how-to-swap-a-baby/

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I don't see why it's not possible that if Lemore was Ashara that she didn't get some sort of contacts(or the westeros equivalent) for her eyes. Sure we've never actually seen anybody with contacts, but since there are a few other ways to disquise yourself it's not out of the question that someone could change the color of their eyes.

[WhiteWolf26]

I don't see why it's not possible that if Lemore was Ashara that she didn't get some sort of contacts(or the westeros equivalent) for her eyes. Sure we've never actually seen anybody with contacts, but since there are a few other ways to disquise yourself it's not out of the question that someone could change the color of their eyes.

Considering we've seen some form of magic face changing, hiding your eye color definetely does not seem like a far stretch.