R+L=J v.19

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Other potential cases of Bloodraven's meddling are Jon's recurring nightmares of the Winterfell crypts, IMO. Jon may have inherited the gift of prophetic dreams from either side of his presumed lineage, and it's been widely speculated that there's an object related to R+L=J hidden in Lyanna's tomb (Blackfyre, Rhaegar's silver harp, proof of marriage or legitimization?). At this point, Jon hasn't any inkling that his parentage's a mystery beyond Ned fathering him on an unknown woman and, even should Bran or Bloodraven tell him of R+L=J, I imagine he'd be skeptical of accurately seeing events that happened more than a decade ago through trees, no matter how special. Physical evidence's required to convince Jon, I figure. Since Howland Reed's apparently still dawdling around the Neck and all three supposed magical detectors of Targaryen blood are on another continent, the Winterfell crypts might be the place to start. Especially as Winterfell's a pretty convenient pit stop for people fleeing, say, the ice zombie apocalypse after the Wall's inevitably breached.

I'm trying to decide what I think is in the crypts. On the one hand, it could be as simple as, "Lyanna is in the crypts, Lyanna is Jon's mother, ergo something about Jon's past is in the crypts and it's Lyanna." On the other, I like the idea that something else — physical proof of some kind — is down there, too. Put there by ... someone (Ned?).

[Lady Octarina]

and all three supposed magical detectors of Targaryen blood are on another continent,

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by that? The dragons?

[Fire Eater]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by that? The dragons?

Yeah, that is pretty clear. Dragons can detect those who have "the blood of the dragon" or Valyrian blood, which includes the Targaryens.

[Alia of the knife]

I have suspected that Jon is being drawn to the Crypts for several reasons:

- One to see his mother, (Lyanna who btw has her own statue, which I understand was only done for important Starks, i.e., Kings, Lords, Heirs, and most certainly men, but if Lyanna died a Princess...).

- Something in the Crypts put there by Ned to tell Jon who he is.

- Bran saw visions of a Dragon, (just read the childrens book by Martin "The Ice Dragon), in the smoke of Winterfell.

1). Could there be a literal fourth Dragon, with Martin introducing his "Ice" Dragon, and would be specifically Jons?

2). Is it figurative, and the vision of the dragon is a harbinger of Jon being a "dragon?"

In "Dune" Pauls son Leto eventually morphed into an actual Arakeen worm, so I wonder if Martin borrows a page from that influence and Jon becomes a dragon after warging it, but he loses himself and can't come back?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, that is pretty clear. Dragons can detect those who have "the blood of the dragon" or Valyrian blood, which includes the Targaryens.

Can they? Quentyn thought they'd be able to detect it in him, but ... well.

Perhaps they can, I don't know. But I think we need to be careful when it comes to deciding what's true and what's not true about dragons, especially when so much of it comes from secondhand sources and hearsay. I suspect that we're going to see instances where "conventional wisdom" in books and oral histories might not end up being true. And Martin said something to the effect that one did not have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon, so ...

[Yeade]

Like Alia of the knife, I seem to recall that traditionally only the Kings in the North and Lords of Winterfell have tombs down in the crypts, but Ned has statues carved of Brandon and Lyanna in addition to Rickard so they can be buried side by side out of love for his siblings. While Ned no doubt loves his brother and sister dearly, does he have ulterior motives in breaking with a thousands of years old family custom? It's certainly possible...

My favorite crackpot theory is, I believe, SFDanny's speculation that Rhaegar sends some of the Kingsguard later at the Tower of Joy on an errand across the Narrow Sea prior to Robert's Rebellion. The mission? Steal Blackfyre back from the pretenders of the Golden Company. The sword's later at the Tower of Joy when Ned, Howland Reed et al. arrive and, after all's come to an end, Ned buries it with Lyanna, the Targaryens being dead, in exile, or hidden away. So this rather fanciful tale goes! :laugh:

At any rate, if Blackfyre's still with the Golden Company, I'd expect it to make an appearance soon wielded by Aegriff. I admit the irony of this particular sword improbably ending up in Jon's possession and proving him Rhaegar's chosen heir over Aegriff, considered by many to be a Blackfyre pretender, tickles me pink. Bloodraven's perhaps the only man remaining in the Seven Kingdoms who'd also understand the joke.

Rhaegar's trademark silver harp has been proposed, as well. Note that Dany's seen the instrument in her vision of Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon in the House of the Undying. Royal documentation of Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, Jon's legitimization, or simply a signed confession from Ned to Jon about round out the suggestions. These won't go far in convincing anyone else but Jon and the remaining Starks of R+L=J, IMO, as paperwork can be forged.

With regard to Quentyn and his attempt to tame the dragons on the basis of his own Targaryen heritage, one alternate explanation for his failure is that he tries to face both Rhaegal and Viserion together. It's mentioned elsewhere in ADWD that each dragon has only one exclusive rider so long as the human lives, that even Aegon the Conqueror dared not ride his sisters' dragons. Viserion actually does appear to be responding to Quentyn before Rhaegal roasts the poor sod, IIRC. Anyways, between Euron's bloody dragon horn, Tyrion's knowledge of dragonlore, and skinchanging, there are plenty of loopholes for non-Targaryens to become dragonriders. Though I've always felt that quote of GRRM's implies there will be one other confirmed Targaryen besides Dany flying about on dragonback.

[Alia of the knife]

Like Alia of the knife, I seem to recall that traditionally only the Kings in the North and Lords of Winterfell have tombs down in the crypts, but Ned has statues carved of Brandon and Lyanna in addition to Rickard so they can be buried side by side out of love for his siblings. While Ned no doubt loves his brother and sister dearly, does he have ulterior motives in breaking with a thousands of years old family custom? It's certainly possible...

My favorite crackpot theory is, I believe, SFDanny's speculation that Rhaegar sends some of the Kingsguard later at the Tower of Joy on an errand across the Narrow Sea prior to Robert's Rebellion. The mission? Steal Blackfyre back from the pretenders of the Golden Company. The sword's later at the Tower of Joy when Ned, Howland Reed et al. arrive and, after all's come to an end, Ned buries it with Lyanna, the Targaryens being dead, in exile, or hidden away. So this rather fanciful tale goes! :laugh:

At any rate, if Blackfyre's still with the Golden Company, I'd expect it to make an appearance soon wielded by Aegriff. I admit the irony of this particular sword improbably ending up in Jon's possession and proving him Rhaegar's chosen heir over Aegriff, considered by many to be a Blackfyre pretender, tickles me pink. Bloodraven's perhaps the only man remaining in the Seven Kingdoms who'd also understand the joke.

Rhaegar's trademark silver harp has been proposed, as well. Note that Dany's seen the instrument in her vision of Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon in the House of the Undying. Royal documentation of Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, Jon's legitimization, or simply a signed confession from Ned to Jon about round out the suggestions. These won't go far in convincing anyone else but Jon and the remaining Starks of R+L=J, IMO, as paperwork can be forged.

With regard to Quentyn and his attempt to tame the dragons on the basis of his own Targaryen heritage, one alternate explanation for his failure is that he tries to face both Rhaegal and Viserion together. It's mentioned elsewhere in ADWD that each dragon has only one exclusive rider so long as the human lives, that even Aegon the Conqueror dared not ride his sisters' dragons. Viserion actually does appear to be responding to Quentyn before Rhaegal roasts the poor sod, IIRC. Anyways, between Euron's bloody dragon horn, Tyrion's knowledge of dragonlore, and skinchanging, there are plenty of loopholes for non-Targaryens to become dragonriders. Though I've always felt that quote of GRRM's implies there will be one other confirmed Targaryen besides Dany flying about on dragonback.

On Brandons Statue, I can see that, because he was the original heir of Winterfell, but the statue of Lyanna is more intrigueing.

It's been a long time since the Starks were Kings, so we don't know if it would have also been a practice of erecting statues to their Queens, but if not, then Lyannas I think is a nod that it may be more than a tribute to Neds love for her. :ph34r:

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I know this is off topic, but as soon as I got to this:

I've heard they are very apprehensive about the RW, and the impact it will have on the casual fan just tuning into it, because it's so bleak. I think even with that they have suggested "seeing how it goes" will depend if they continue.

Wait, what?! Where did they say this?! I'm just baffled because the show's gained a reputation for being bleak and uncompromising. Stuff like the death of Ned makes people MORE attracted to the show, and the RW will go down in television history if done right, so the idea that they're apprehensive about it is just... what?! If they did say this, I'd say it's likely they just don't want to outright say, "We're killing Cat and Robb in S3."

[Ygrain]

In "Dune" Pauls son Leto eventually morphed into an actual Arakeen worm, so I wonder if Martin borrows a page from that influence and Jon becomes a dragon after warging it, but he loses himself and can't come back?

Would this be the book where your namesake was sort of warged by Baron Harkonnen? :D

I do believe there is something to be found down in the Winterfell crypt, though not necessarily physical. "Bones remember" - I think we are getting this phrase for a purpose. Rattleshirt's bone armour sustains Mel's glamour "because bones remember". When Jon burns the wight in Mormont's solar, it moves around until the flesh is burnt and "bones remembered they were dead".

Hm... Silent Sisters are said to be able to talk to the dead, and Ned's bones are somewhere on the road - though I hope we won't be getting anything that simple as a spiritistic seance, that would be lame.

[FanTasy]

A Septon was payed off to Marry Tyrion to Tysha. The Septon's vows did not stop him then, nor did being a "servant of the faith". That Septon agreed to marry Tyrion, because Tyrion was a Lannister, and Tyrion payed him. So I don't think it's impossible to consider that Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been married in a similar way.

This thing started with a post that raised the question if there was a wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna, making their child legit :cool4:

I gave some examples for what could be necessary rituals. The cloaking of the bride seems to be universal, in the north as well as in the south, as is giving away the bride. This seems logical, it was the thing marriages were for: joining houses by giving a female daughter away.

Remember that Joffrey had to stand in for Eddard at Sansa's wedding with Tyrion. His authority to give her away to House Lannister was based in that he as king was 'father of the realm'.Obviously there was no next of kin Stark who could give her away. ASOS Sansa III.

The marriage between Tyrion and Tysha could be annulled, maybe because it was before a drunk or bribed septon?. I don't recall a bribe being mentioned though. There probably was, don/t have the book at hand. I took it Tyrion said he found a drunk septon. I always suspected that drunk septon at the Wall could be the one. Don't recall if they met when Tyrion was at the Wall.

ETA There was a bribe and this might be the reason the marriage could be annulled. Tyrion tells Bronn in AGOT Tyrion VI: "a few lies, fifty pieces of silver and a drunken septon" "The septon after a fortnight sobered and confessed all to my lord father." "That was the end of my marriage."

Another wedding, before a septon but without giving the bride away, was Lysa's and Petyr's wedding.

I agree with you that we have never heard of a Targaryen wedding but for Dany's wedding in Essos. Have to re-read how that one went.

ETA Hmm ... feetwashing, chaining by wrist and ankle, four hours in the temple that were not accounted for. ADWD Daenerys VII

Well, as said the point of my little research into these weddings was that the question could be raised iwhen a wedding could be considered legit. We simply don't know if there was a wedding Rhaegar x Lyanna, For all I know it would suffice if Rhaegar said: "you are to give me the third head of the dragon".

[Alia of the knife]

I know this is off topic, but as soon as I got to this:

Wait, what?! Where did they say this?! I'm just baffled because the show's gained a reputation for being bleak and uncompromising. Stuff like the death of Ned makes people MORE attracted to the show, and the RW will go down in television history if done right, so the idea that they're apprehensive about it is just... what?! If they did say this, I'd say it's likely they just don't want to outright say, "We're killing Cat and Robb in S3."

It was way back, I can't remember exactly when, but suffice it to say, yes, the show survived and did very well, but I think they were initially asked about it's longevity.

For a casual fan base who might tune into HBO to see what it's all about, there may certain scenes where kids are involved, (Bran being thrown out a window by an adult, or the breast-feeding scene), animals being killed, or mistreated, etc. not their cup of tea if they don't have the context to back it up because most casual fans are not going to read the books.

And, even for a loyal fanbase, there are some things that are uncomfortable.

Also, people who get attached to characters who die may get turned off.

They were looking at it from a ratings standpoint and weighing cost too, but forutunately SO FAR, people have accepted it, but I think it's fair to say that the casual fan may not expect the RW, and if people become attached to Robb (and he is actually getting more presence on screen than the books because the Actor did so well), and he is killed, that may prove too much, and I think that is what they were just reflecting when asked about if it had the same longevity of say, The Sopranos.

And, just because someone else might think a work is fabulous, doesn't mean someone else, and CAN they do it well? They are fortunate to have an Author who was also in the business who can help them with it.

- In True Blood, they decided to keep a character that actually was killed off, but he was so popular, they didn't want to take that risk.

(Another show I'm not into though it's popular, because I am vampired out, but my co-worker watches it faithfully and is reading the books).

- Walking Dead is also very popular and dark, but with last seasons ending which was mind blowing, people are getting into it now that did not before. A show like that with it's trend may also help bolster a show like GOT, accustoming an audience to storylines that they've not been accustomed to before.

People, (again beyond the fan base), are also fickle, and what interests some one year may not the next, so everything is a risk.

[Alia of the knife]

Would this be the book where your namesake was sort of warged by Baron Harkonnen? :D

I do believe there is something to be found down in the Winterfell crypt, though not necessarily physical. "Bones remember" - I think we are getting this phrase for a purpose. Rattleshirt's bone armour sustains Mel's glamour "because bones remember". When Jon burns the wight in Mormont's solar, it moves around until the flesh is burnt and "bones remembered they were dead".

Hm... Silent Sisters are said to be able to talk to the dead, and Ned's bones are somewhere on the road - though I hope we won't be getting anything that simple as a spiritistic seance, that would be lame.

Yes! :thumbsup:

(And if they could actually do a good movie, or series I could die happy).

The ghosts in Jons dreams of the crypts also tell him he doesn't belong there.

Is it because Ned isn't his Father, or is it because of who his Father was?

Maybe there is something in the Stark bloodline that would make a "Dragon" the last thing they'd want to mate with, given that a Stark was rumored to have mated with an "Other."

[Ygrain]

Yes! :thumbsup:

(And if they could actually do a good movie, or series I could die happy).

And here I thought I was the only heretic who wasn't particularly happy with the big Lynch icon, or am I misreading you?

The ghosts in Jons dreams of the crypts also tell him he doesn't belong there.

Is it because Ned isn't his Father, or is it because of who his Father was?

Maybe there is something in the Stark bloodline that would make a "Dragon" the last thing they'd want to mate with, given that a Stark was rumored to have mated with an "Other."

I think it's because Ned is not his father - we have patrilineal society here, the title is inherited from the father, so Jon is not a Stark but a Targaryen.

[FanTasy]

Alia of the knife, on 30 January 2012 - 05:14 PM, said: The ghosts in Jons dreams of the crypts also tell him he doesn't belong there.

Hm ... have to re-read, in my memory Jon says he doesn't belong there, that he is not a Stark. I'm off to :read:

[kissdbyfire]

I know this is off topic, but as soon as I got to this:

Wait, what?! Where did they say this?

It was way back, I can't remember exactly when, but suffice it to say, yes, the show survived and did very well, but I think they were initially asked about it's longevity.

Very off-topic, so I’ll keep it short. Link to an interview (ComicCon) where D&D say they are actually looking forward to shooting the Red Wedding.

Just wanted to put your minds at ease. :D

(+ - 7.37 mins. in)

[Eejit]

I always thought Lyanna killed herself, didn't want to marry her lovers killer, but who knows.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, kill herself? I can't see it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hm ... have to re-read, in my memory Jon says he doesn't belong there, that he is not a Stark. I'm off to :read:

There's also the matter of the crypt being the place for dead people and Jon at that point being alive. Kind of like Theon being out of place at the "feast of the dead."

[Waterfall]

Couldn't Rheager just made Jon his heir before he left for battle? He believed Jon was 'The Song of Ice and Fire', if I recall right, and therefore wanted him on the throne. I don't think marriage was really necessary.

What depens Bloodraven.. He's very much anti-Blackfyre, so I believe he's contacting Jon to place him on the throne, or at least tries to hinder Aegon through Jon. He will do everything to make sure, that after so many years, no Blackfyre will sit on the throne

[Sasha Steelsong]

Couldn't Rheager just made Jon his heir before he left for battle? He believed Jon was 'The Song of Ice and Fire', if I recall right, and therefore wanted him on the throne. I don't think marriage was really necessary.

What depens Bloodraven.. He's very much anti-Blackfyre, so I believe he's contacting Jon to place him on the throne, or at least tries to hinder Aegon through Jon. He will do everything to make sure, that after so many years, no Blackfyre will sit on the throne

Jon wouldn't have been born yet at the time Rhaegar took his leave of Lyanna, so I'm not sure that was possible. Targ succession was through boys only (and technically still is though having dragons is a nice way to get an exception to the norm) and they had no way of knowing that Jon would be a boy before he was born. Not to mention that Aegon would still come before Jon in the line of succession, so even if they had known, Aegon would have been Rhaegar's heir.

[WhiteWolf26]

Couldn't Rheager just made Jon his heir before he left for battle? He believed Jon was 'The Song of Ice and Fire', if I recall right, and therefore wanted him on the throne. I don't think marriage was really necessary.

What depens Bloodraven.. He's very much anti-Blackfyre, so I believe he's contacting Jon to place him on the throne, or at least tries to hinder Aegon through Jon. He will do everything to make sure, that after so many years, no Blackfyre will sit on the throne

Danys vision of Rhaegar standing over a child and saying 'his is the song of ice and fire' is in regards to Aegon. There is no actual evidence of Rhaegar knowing about Jon Snow anywhere in the text.

ETA and we dont know that the prophecy Rhaegar was trying to complete had anything to do with the Iron Throne. Most likely its something to do with The Others/The Long Winter.