R+L=J v.19

[Alia of the knife]

And here I thought I was the only heretic who wasn't particularly happy with the big Lynch icon, or am I misreading you?

I think it's because Ned is not his father - we have patrilineal society here, the title is inherited from the father, so Jon is not a Stark but a Targaryen.

Oh no, not happy at all.

And the second attempt was okay, and more faithful to some degree, but still it didn't quite capture it.

That is true regarding Jon and Ned not being his Father, but I do get the feeling the Starks are going to end up being as bizarre as the Targaryens, in their own way.

Looking forward to the next Dunk & Egg installment on "The She Wolves of Winterfell."

AND................................

I expect to see, nay demand to see, for cinematic affect, when Jon wargs a dragon, lots of Stark nose bleeds.

I don't care where they are, the free cities or Skaagos, followed up by Bran crawling into Bloodravens "lap," (wherever that is and who also has a nose bleed), and feebly whispering: " Master, Jons warging the dragon" :D

[Waterfall]

Jon wouldn't have been born yet at the time Rhaegar took his leave of Lyanna, so I'm not sure that was possible. Targ succession was through boys only (and technically still is though having dragons is a nice way to get an exception to the norm) and they had no way of knowing that Jon would be a boy before he was born. Not to mention that Aegon would still come before Jon in the line of succession, so even if they had known, Aegon would have been Rhaegar's heir.

Rheagar did already know she was pregnant I presume. His marriage with Elia was political and had nothing do with love. I believe that Rheagar loved Lyanna and she loved him back. When she was pregnant, Rheager felt that his true heir was in her, boy or girl. Couln't he, with all the power he had, made this unborn child his heir? I would have been secret, but I believe it could have happenend, it's an explenation to the KG present at the tower.

Danys vision of Rhaegar standing over a child and saying 'his is the song of ice and fire' is in regards to Aegon. There is no actual evidence of Rhaegar knowing about Jon Snow anywhere in the text.

I did not read it for a long time, but how are we sure it's Aegon? It could be something that didn't actually happen, and is just a part of Rheagar alive in Dany. R+L are both death and look down to the world and see Jon.

[Jem]

Rheagar did already know she was pregnant I presume. His marriage with Elia was political and had nothing do with love. I believe that Rheagar loved Lyanna and she loved him back. When she was pregnant, Rheager felt that his true heir was in her, boy or girl. Couln't he, with all the power he had, made this unborn child his heir? I would have been secret, but I believe it could have happenend, it's an explenation to the KG present at the tower.

I did not read it for a long time, but how are we sure it's Aegon? It could be something that didn't actually happen, and is just a part of Rheagar alive in Dany. R+L are both death and look down to the world and see Jon.

Just becuase Rhaegar didn't love Elia doesn't mean he would disinherit Aegon in favour of Lyanna's child. Besides the fact that there is no evidence that he disliked Elia, disinheriting Aegon would be a bad move politically as it would upset Dorne. If Rhaegar wanted to put Elia aside and take up with Lyanna, the one compensation that Rhaegar could offer to Dorne was that Aegon would remain as Rhaegar's heir.

Besides which Rhaegar felt that Aegon was the prince that was promised, song of ice & fire etc and yes, GRRM has confirmed that Dany's vision of that conversation was between Rhaegar and Elia (not Lyanna).

It is entirely possible that Rhaegar was expecting to have a daughter with Lyanna with the intent of recreating the original Aegon-Rhaenys-Visenya trio.

Also, whatever power Rhaegar had, he was still only a prince. I don't know that he had sufficient authority to cancel out one heir and instate another. And the Targs have issues with daughters inheriting, so it is unlikely that Rheagar would have allowed the unborn baby whose gender was yet to be determined be his heir. And what if that baby died? If Rhaegar denounced Aegon (and Rhaenys) and Lyanna's baby died then Rheagar would be left heirless.

I really think that while Rhaegar thought that Lyanna's baby was necessary to his quest, his number one kid was still Aegon. Lyanna's baby didn't become as important until after Rhaegar's other kids had died.

[Lady Octarina]

I really think that while Rhaegar thought that Lyanna's baby was necessary to his quest, his number one kid was still Aegon. Lyanna's baby didn't become as important until after Rhaegar's other kids had died.

I always liked to believe Rhaegar considered Jon to be his song of ice and fire, but I agree with your arguments, and you know what? The fact that his baby with Lyanna would be just a bonus to the trio, not a believed promissed prince in his father's eyes, would add a bit more drama into Jon's already tragic story, so... yeah, I think that would be a nice solution.

[Alia of the knife]

I always liked to believe Rhaegar considered Jon to be his song of ice and fire, but I agree with your arguments, and you know what? The fact that his baby with Lyanna would be just a bonus to the trio, not a believed promissed prince in his father's eyes, would add a bit more drama into Jon's already tragic story, so... yeah, I think that would be a nice solution.

I agree.

I've also thought that because Jon may have been more of a love child that Rhaegar actually, and perhaps really for the first time fulfills his part of the prophesy, because this time he's actually not focused on it, but Lyanna.

Prophesy is something that happens, and is not manipulated into happening which is another reason why I tend to think Aegon really died.

[Bastard Snow]

A agree with the above and I still don't have any idea why varys would have any loyalties to the AeGriff or his line. I think he has alterior motives in the game of thrones and he is just trying to create pieces where there aren't the ones he needs. Who knows though. He could just be there to show that even if you make it to be one of the three, you can still kill a dragon and its rider.

[Go! Jon Snow]

At first didn't Rhaegar think that his was the Song of Ice and Fire alias TPTWP? Then he thought it was Aegon. When he met and fell in love with Lyanna he realized then that Targ+Stark=the Song of Ice and Fire at last?

[Alia of the knife]

At first didn't Rhaegar think that his was the Song of Ice and Fire alias TPTWP? Then he thought it was Aegon. When he met and fell in love with Lyanna he realized then that Targ+Stark=the Song of Ice and Fire at last?

I tend to think that is likely what happened, but for Rhaegars fate, it was too late.

[Fire Eater]

At first didn't Rhaegar think that his was the Song of Ice and Fire alias TPTWP? Then he thought it was Aegon. When he met and fell in love with Lyanna he realized then that Targ+Stark=the Song of Ice and Fire at last?

Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and when Rhaegar found her to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, well let's go beyond that he knew Aegon I had two wives, he could've seen Lyanna as a Visenya, a passionate, temperamental woman who was a warrior in her own right.

[the wolf warg]

for the people who claim jon isnt neds bastard how do you explain the scene were the boy tells arya about jons mother killing herself after ned had taken jon from her and went back to winterfell?

[Lady Octarina]

for the people who claim jon isnt neds bastard how do you explain the scene were the boy tells arya about jons mother killing herself after ned had taken jon from her and went back to winterfell?

Is that a reference to Ashara Dayne? Anyway, look at that boy's age. Someone lied to him (Edric Dayne, right?) to protect Jon, or someone lied to the person who told him that, for the same reason. Think about it, the Daynes were very close to Rhaegar; seems only right they wouldn't reveal the truth about the child if that meant he would have the same fate as the rest of Rhaegar's children.

[Ursa]

You mean Edric Dayne? He told Arya that Wylla was Jon's mother and that Ashara killed herself because her heart was broken.

He's also 12 at the time, and everything he knows is second hand info.

[Ygrain]

Could someone provide a direct quote, please? My translation is rather lousy at this particular point, saying "wetnurse mother of Jon Snow", which doesn't really make much sense to me.

However, Edric says nothing about Ashara being Jon's mother or killing herself because Ned took Jon from her. That's what Cersei hurled in Ned's face - if Ashara killed herself because of the brother he killed, or the child he snatched. Edric only says that his aunt claims that Ned and Ashara fell for each other at the tourney at Harrenhall and that he broke her heart. The gossip about Ned and Ashara is quite widespread, since Harwin later tells Arya he had heard that, too. There are two pieces of information that contradict the possibility of Jon being Ned's son - his age (he is younger than Robb, who was conceived somewhere halfway through Robert's rebellion, while the tourney took place a good couple of months before it), and the information from Barristan that Ashara had a stillborn daughter (the information may not be reliable, though, since Barristan was hardly an eye witness)

[Ursa]

Do you mean the conversation between Arya and Edric? If so...

"My lady?" Ned said at last. "You have a baseborn brother … Jon Snow? "

"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair… "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all. just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon? "

"He is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."

"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

Small bit cut here..........

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her "little sister". I'm not so little anymore. He'd have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. "There was an Arthur Dayne," she remembered. "The one they called the Sword of the Morning."

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born."

"Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled.

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. "Your lord father never spoke of her?" he said. "The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?"

"No. Did he know her?"

"Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring."

"Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?"

"Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"

He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place… "

"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal – “

"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."

"I'm sure he did, my lady, but – “

"She was the only one he loved."

A bit more cut here

"That boy Ned said…"

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around.

"I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie … and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

[Ygrain]

Thanks so much!

[jvvst3]

Sorry, this may be unrelated and a stupid question to ask, but does anyone know what has happened to Rhaeger's body after the Battle of the Trident? Could the fact that Jon is being pulled to Winterfell's lower crypts be due to the fact that Rhaeger is buried there. Since Ned was at the Battle of the Trident, he could have sent Rhaeger's body North. Although it would have been difficult to do so without someone noticing. Also, not sure what purpose having Rhaeger's body in Winterfell crypts serves, because I don't know that Jon could make the connection to who his father is if he saw the tomb.

Anyways, just a thought. This has probably been covered a thousand times before. I do apologize, I just haven't covered all nineteen versions of the R + L = J discussion, so try not to flame me too bad. Perhaps just a mild searing.

[Dragonfish]

Sorry, this may be unrelated and a stupid question to ask, but does anyone know what has happened to Rhaeger's body after the Battle of the Trident?

George has said that Rhaegar's body was cremated, in accordance with Targaryen tradition.

[Lexy Boleyn]

Just what is probaly another crappy crackpot argument, but first a question: when king Robert was in Winterfell, did he ever crossed Jon's path and saw his face? Because here's the theory: Robert Baratheon was the most likely one to recognize in Jon physical aspects inherited from Rhaegar or Lyanna, since both their faces are "carved" in his memories: Lyanna because he almost worship her ( the touching scene in which he says that he don't rememer how she looked like is TV created if I'm not wrong, even if it made me cry) and Rhaegar because he "kills him every night" in his dreams... Obsessed as he was, the more little detail would have been noticed, like " Ned, my friend, have you ever noticed that your bastard has the same facial bone structure as that bloody Targaryen rapist?". So Ned tried to keep them apart...

But again it is probably wrong.

[the wolf warg]

robert says during AGOT that he doesnt even remember what lyanna looked like anymore so i doubt he would have made that connection

[the wolf warg]

i think all the stark children are being pulled toward the crypts because of the connection to the power there family posses..its clear through storys the starks have a great history of powerful heros and kings and it seems at least a few of neds children have the blood of the old kings in them, both through there connection with there direwolves(all the ancient kings in the north had dire wolf as pets/companions) and i believe one of them will come into contact with these ancient heros...(most likely bran) and learn great secrets or power from them