R+L=J v.19

[Serie]

the only problem is if jon is r+l even if they married in secret and jon is legit prince no one would know because it was a secret and noone would care either so jon would still have to win the thrones from the other kingdoms,so at best i see him remaining at the wall and still being lord commander

howland reed would know... and maybe some others as well (Jon Connington perhaps?). But I don't see Jon sitting on the iron throne first of all because I don't think he is interested, then because IMHO he deserves much better and at last because when this story ends I don't think there will be any of the seven kingdoms (and consequently the iron throne) as we and the westerosi know them.

[FanTasy]

howland reed would know... and maybe some others as well (Jon Connington perhaps?). But I don't see Jon sitting on the iron throne first of all because I don't think he is interested, then because IMHO he deserves much better and at last because when this story ends I don't think there will be any of the seven kingdoms (and consequently the iron throne) as we and the westerosi know them.

There might as well be no Jon alive :crying:

[Serie]

There might as well be no Jon alive :crying:

uhm...yes... but I'd rather not think about it :bawl:

[StannisBarFTW]

I dont think Jon is Lyanna´s child, mainly because of what that dude in the three sisters said to davos, that Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion, besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ, interesting theory would be if Young Griff is Lyanna son

[The Sunset King]

They might got married in front of a weirwood tree. No need for a septon. If we accept that the religions sort of reject each other, Rhaegar didn't commit poligamy according to either religion since he has only one wife per each.

In case he manages to become King, he might have wanted to straighten things afterwards, he just didn't have the time.

This would explain how the marriage happened without interference but most of the realm would still consider it a form of polygamy. While the different religions have differing rites and some differences in codes of conduct, the nature of marriage as a social and political institution in Westeros is largely compatible throughout the various territories. The idea of a unified Westeros would not be viable if varying sections of the continent mutually rejected each others' social institutions completely. The religions can reject each other but the feudal structure cannot allow such divisions to delve too deeply into inheritance, marriage, and other issues. There would still likely be a lot of controversy about such a royal martial status to Northmen as well as among followers of the Seven. Using a weirwood tree would work though if Rhaegar intended to keep it secret and only ever planned on Aegon (his PTWP candidate) sitting the throne.

[Lady Octarina]

I dont think Jon is Lyanna´s child, mainly because of what that dude in the three sisters said to davos, that Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion, besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ, interesting theory would be if Young Griff is Lyanna son

lol

Well, that would certainly be a twist. But if we trust Ned, Jon Arryn and Stannis, a person's hair is a good way to know a person's parentage, and, really, we've never heard of a fair-haired Stark, it's unlikely the kid would come out with YG's hair color even if he has Targ blood. But Ned got there with a child before the rebellion? That wouldn't make sense; isn't it accepted by the character's involved that Jon would have been conceived during the rebellion? Isn't he younger than Robb?

Besides, I think this Wylla story is very suspicious... we hear about her near the North, helping Ned escape the Targs. Isn't she originarily from the Arryn territory anyway? And then Edric Dayne tells us she's his wet nurse from Dorne. What would someone from the Eyrie be doing in Dorne anyway?Especially if the kid was hers and had already been taken to Winterfell, we suppose? Remember there was a war going on, and getting from one place to another was even more difficult and risky than usual. My guess is there are two "Wylla"'s; maybe one of them is Ashara Dayne, who knows?

[Dragonfish]

I dont think Jon is Lyanna´s child, mainly because of what that dude in the three sisters said to davos, that Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion,

The story that Lord Godric tells Davos is most likely false, because it contradicts Ned's own words about when Jon was conceived. Ned has no reason to lie about this if he is actually Jon's father, but he has plenty of reason to lie if Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.

besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ,

Catelyn and Ned were separated for a year. Plenty of time for Ned to discover Jon at the ToJ and send him back to Winterfell before Catelyn got there.

interesting theory would be if Young Griff is Lyanna son

The problem with this is that it doesn't fit all the clues. For one, there's the imagery of the blue rose growing from a wall of ice (as seen in the HotU), which rather blatantly hints at Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. For another, we have Ned's own admission that he's been living lies for fourteen years, which has so far only been adequately explained by R+L=J. I suppose that R+L=YG is technically possible, but it still leaves certain things unexplained, while R+L=J does not.

[Ghost714]

I dont think Jon is Lyanna´s child, mainly because of what that dude in the three sisters said to davos, that Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion, besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ, interesting theory would be if Young Griff is Lyanna son

You do realize that absolutely NOTHING makes sense about what Lord Godric tells Davos at the Sisters. Your not even remembering it right either, there is a reason why your the only one on this thread using that as proof against R+L=J. Everyone else knows enough about the subject, to know that what Lord Godric tells Davos does not make sense. Have you even considered the timeline, at al?????

First off Lord Godric never said that, "Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion"

This is what was said,

ADwD page #132

(Davos) "Ned Stark was here?

(Lord Godric) " At the Dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow she named him, after Arryn. "

So again, obviously Lord Godric never said, "Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion", like you think he did. What really baffles me though is how you think what Godric said to Davos, proves that Jon is not Lyanna's son, ESPECIALLY your version of what Godric said to Davos. Because in your version Jon was already born, when Ned got to the sisters. If that was the case, then Jon would be like a year older than Robb. So how in seven hells would anybody believe that Jon is younger than Robb, if you believe Jon was born a year before Robb!?!?!

Now despite your version of what Godric tells Davos making no sense at all, I will explain how nothing makes sense, with the real version of what Godric tell Davos.

If what Godric tells Davos is true, then Ned got some firsherman's daughter pregnant, before Ned was even married to Catelyn. So it makes no sense for Ned to lie, by Ned saying he cheated on Cat, if Jon was really conceived before Ned even married Cat. Also Ned tells Robert that Jon's mother was named Wylla. We know that Wylla was a wet nurse from Dorn(Wylla was Edrc Dayne's wet nurse). Edric Dayne tells Arya that Wylla was a wet nurse to the Dayne family for years,( so what is a wet nurse from Dorne doing in the sisters?)

Now if Jon's mother really was a firshermans daughter from the Sisters, why would Ned lie and say that he cheated on cat, and why would Ned say her name is Wylla.....it just does not make sense that Ned would lie, if what Godric tells Davos is really true......but it does make sense that Ned would say those two lie's, if Ned was pulling off a ruse, in order to keep the secret of R+L=J.

Also even in the real version of what Godric tells Davos, the timeline still doesn't make sense. In Godric's version Jon would still be older than Robb, and Ned says Jon is younger, again that would be a pointless lie, if Jon was really older than Robb.

And I don't know what your trying to say when you said, " besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ,"

Where are you getting your information from? Again that's not what happened. When Catelyn and Robb got to Winterfell, both Ned and Jon were there. In your theory, do you think that Jon was magically teleported to Winterfell, how do you think Jon got there, if not with Ned??? Catelyn said that when she got to Winterfell with Robb, Ned was already there with his bastard Jon Snow.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I dont think Jon is Lyanna´s child, mainly because of what that dude in the three sisters said to davos, that Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion, besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ, interesting theory would be if Young Griff is Lyanna son

If the story about Ned that Davos heard is true, Ned would have conceived Jon before he married Catelyn, not after. If that was the case, he never would have committed adultery and his marital shame would have no real basis. He'd still have a bastard, but he would not have dishonored Catelyn. The story that Ned tells about Jon hinges (probably because of Jon's visible age) on him being conceived after Ned married Catelyn. The official story seems to be that Jon is younger than Robb (who was conceived on their wedding night), whether or not that's actually true — Jon could be slightly younger or slightly older, depending on when he was actually born. The point is that even if Jon is a little older, it has to be believable that Robb could be. But if Jon had been conceived that soon before Ned married Catelyn, there's no way that Ned could put the two boys side by side and claim that Jon was younger. Nor would he need to lie about dishonoring Catelyn, because he wouldn't have. She might still resent Jon, but she couldn't reasonably say that Ned did her any big wrong.

As to how Jon got to Winterfell before Catelyn: Starfall is on the water and is a port. Get on a boat at Starfall, go north and then take a quick lateral trip to Winterfell. They could've easily beat Catelyn, who was coming with Robb from Riverrun over land in the middle of what was still mostly a war zone.

Long story short: Don't believe what some random guy tells you, for pete's sake.

[corbon]

They might got married in front of a weirwood tree. No need for a septon. If we accept that the religions sort of reject each other, Rhaegar didn't commit poligamy according to either religion since he has only one wife per each.

In case he manages to become King, he might have wanted to straighten things afterwards, he just didn't have the time.

Not only that, but it worked for Targaryens in the past, so whatever method they used, he could have used.

Its a bit pointless arguing that no septon would do the marriage, since such marriages have definitely been done in the past.

[Blex64]

Hi everyone! First post. Been lurking for...well for a long time.

Can we revisit the timeline a little bit? The biggest problem with it at the moment, in my eyes, is that Ned's arrival at the ToJ is extremely coincidental. Jon is born/Lyanna dies within days, if not hours, of Ned's appearance. This is based off the assumption that Lyanna dies in childbirth. I know this has been discussed before, but is it possible Ned (or anyone really) injured Lyanna during the fight accidentally? Jon is already born, and during the fight she tries to stop it, and in the process gets fatally wounded, dying shortly after in a sickbed (hence the bed of blood). Death in childbirth certainly isn't unheard of, but this makes the time window fit a lot better in my opinion.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hi everyone! First post. Been lurking for...well for a long time.

Can we revisit the timeline a little bit? The biggest problem with it at the moment, in my eyes, is that Ned's arrival at the ToJ is extremely coincidental. Jon is born/Lyanna dies within days, if not hours, of Ned's appearance. This is based off the assumption that Lyanna dies in childbirth. I know this has been discussed before, but is it possible Ned (or anyone really) injured Lyanna during the fight accidentally? Jon is already born, and during the fight she tries to stop it, and in the process gets fatally wounded, dying shortly after in a sickbed (hence the bed of blood). Death in childbirth certainly isn't unheard of, but this makes the time window fit a lot better in my opinion.

Hi!

You're not the first person who's suggested this.

You're right that it seems coincidental that Ned arrives when he does, but it's possible that Jon could have been born even a few days before Ned arrived and Lyanna was succumbing to puerperal fever. Ned says that when she exacted her promise from him, "the fear went out of his sister's eyes." As cliched as it seems, it reads like Lyanna was "hanging on" until she knew her son was safe, and only then was she able to let go and accept death.

Other people have brought up the possibility that Lyanna was wounded in the fight, but I don't see it. The way Ned remembers it — which we know isn't exact but it's what we have — he could hear her calling his name, and it's almost like he had to fight through the Kingsguard to reach her, where she was already in the "bed of blood." This makes sense if you accept that the three Kingsguard were protecting Lyanna and more importantly Jon.

It's not just that death in childbirth isn't "unheard of." That was the biggest cause of death in that equivalent time period in otherwise healthy young women. It can also cause the aforementioned puerperal fever, which fits what Ned says about her having a fever. And "the bloody bed" is used as a metaphor for childbirth in that same book. It's not just that it's a "bed of blood," it's that we're meant to associate "beds of blood" with childbirth. There's also a line somewhere about how a woman's battle is fought in the birthing bed. So based on all of that, her dying in childbirth, to me, makes far and away the most sense.

[SFDanny]

I dont think Jon is Lyanna´s child, mainly because of what that dude in the three sisters said to davos, that Ned got there with a girl and a child, before gathering bannermans to join the rebellion

Others have already shown the problem with this. It makes no sense based on character motivation or the timeline. What is interesting to me about Lord Godric's story is that he tells Davos his family were Targaryen sympathizers. It makes more sense that this story is part of a cover story. Why then is this obscure Lord part of the cover up? I think it's because part of it is true. Ned likely does need a fisherman's aid, and it also makes sense that Wylla's home would be a place the curious would look to verify Wylla's story. A cover story would have to be concocted to explain where Ned and Wylla met. Add the cover story with Wylla being a name used in the region (the Manderlys) and I think it points to her coming from this area. The fact that more Targaryen sympathizers other than the Daynes are helping with a cover story also points to Jon being someone of importance to the Targaryen cause - it's not just because Ned returns Dawn to the Daynes.

besides Jon was already in Winterfell when Cat got there and she got there before Ned came back from the war, or from TOJ, interesting theory would be if Young Griff is Lyanna son

The quote from Catelyn only says that Jon and his wet nurse are in Winterfell when Cat and Robb arrive. We don't know if Ned is there or not, so that much of your statement could be true. I tend to think it is and Jon arrives with a different escort - Howland Reed. I think this because Ned almost certainly takes Jon back with him to Storm's End after his trip to Starfall, but I think the last place Ned would take Jon is to King's Landing. He can't count on the people there believing his story about Jon's origins. We know Ned goes to King's Landing and tells Robert about Lyanna's death, but I think he would do so without Jon coming along. The only person he really can trust to escort Jon, probably by ship from Storm's End, is Howland Reed.

Btw, the nurse at Winterfell is almost certainly NOT Wylla. No one there speaks of rumors of Jon being a fisherman's daughter's child, but they do speak of rumors of Lady Ashara Dayne from soldier stories. Which means it is likely Jon is seen by Winterfell soldiers after Ned leaves Starfall - hence my speculation that he goes to Storm's End.

[The Sunset King]

Not only that, but it worked for Targaryens in the past, so whatever method they used, he could have used.

Its a bit pointless arguing that no septon would do the marriage, since such marriages have definitely been done in the past.

No religious argument would change the fact that Rhaegar having two women at once, if married to both, would be a form of polygamy and that it would widely be seen that way. However, it looks like in the past that the Targaryens who used polygamy either engaged in no religious rite or used something from pre-conversion Valyrian times. Unless there is evidence that polygamy was ever sanctioned in an aristocratic post-Aegon the conqueror marriage according to Nothern rites or those used by adherents to the Seven, it is much more likely that a Targaryen specific method had to be employed.

The Targaryen form of polygamy was not really popular though outside of the Targaryen House itself and greatly weakened after the disappearance of the dragons. The question would be how widely accepted Rhaegar's actions would be and, say he had won the Battle of the Trident, whether it would have been a propaganda point used by anti-Targaryen rebels. Additionally, Rhaegar using polygamy may be interpreted differently now that non-Targs who prefer Andal customs have held the Iron Throne for more than 15 years.

[corbon]

No religious argument would change the fact that Rhaegar having two women at once, if married to both, would be a form of polygamy and that it would widely be seen that way. However, it looks like in the past that the Targaryens who used polygamy either engaged in no religious rite or used something from pre-conversion Valyrian times. Unless there is evidence that polygamy was ever sanctioned in an aristocratic post-Aegon the conqueror marriage according to Nothern rites or those used by adherents to the Seven, it is much more likely that a Targaryen specific method had to be employed.

Looks like based on what?

We know that Aegon converted to the seven to make his conquest easier.

We know that there was at least one (Maegor), maybe more (according to GRRM), post-Aegon polygamous Targs, who we have to assume also followed the seven. Why would we assume that there is the religious rites cannot work for them?

The religion of the seven doesn't apparently normally agree with polygamy, but it seems that they made exceptions (or it didn't matter for the ceremonies even though the official church line is against polygamy) for Targaryen royalty before.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why then is this obscure Lord part of the cover up? I think it's because part of it is true. Ned likely does need a fisherman's aid, and it also makes sense that Wylla's home would be a place the curious would look to verify Wylla's story. A cover story would have to be concocted to explain where Ned and Wylla met. Add the cover story with Wylla being a name used in the region (the Manderlys) and I think it points to her coming from this area. The fact that more Targaryen sympathizers other than the Daynes are helping with a cover story also points to Jon being someone of importance to the Targaryen cause - it's not just because Ned returns Dawn to the Daynes.

I don't think the Wylla had anything to do with the fisherman's story. How on earth would a woman employed at Starfall — about as far away from the Sisters area as you can get — end up there, or vice versa?

I have no idea what official story Ned told about how he met Wylla, but if people could accept that he had an affair with Ashara Dayne or was in love with her, I could see how they'd accept that he could have fathered a child on one of her servants. I think the story Davos heard is Grade A red herring in just about every respect.

[Ygrain]

I don't think the Wylla had anything to do with the fisherman's story. How on earth would a woman employed at Starfall — about as far away from the Sisters area as you can get — end up there, or vice versa?

I have no idea what official story Ned told about how he met Wylla, but if people could accept that he had an affair with Ashara Dayne or was in love with her, I could see how they'd accept that he could have fathered a child on one of her servants. I think the story Davos heard is Grade A red herring in just about every respect.

Unless she was a woman from the Sisters who ended up employed at Starfall, which is not necessarily in contradiction with what young Dayne says about her being a wetnurse in his family for many years. However, I'm not sure how this would be supposed to happen. It would mean that she would have to stay with Ned during the whole rebellion, meaning that tons of people would have seen her and spread the gossip - yet, we don't get any. Robert, apparently, never saw her himself. See how Godric makes an obvious assumption - Ned was seen with a woman, she must be his bastard's mother.

Besides, any fishergirl, or any commoner, for that respect, doesn't fit with the need for secrecy: what harm could come from naming her as Jon's mother? None I can think of.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Unless she was a woman from the Sisters who ended up employed at Starfall, which is not necessarily in contradiction with what young Dayne says about her being a wetnurse in his family for many years. However, I'm not sure how this would be supposed to happen.

That's kind of my point. How would a fisherman's daughter from the Sisters end up in Dorne and at that specific castle? Far more likely that the Wylla is actually from Dorne and probably from the Daynes' land and has eff all to do with the fisherman's daughter whom Ned may or may not have knocked up. I don't think that Manderly having a granddaughter who's also named Wylla is any evidence at all.

Besides, any fishergirl, or any commoner, for that respect, doesn't fit with the need for secrecy: what harm could come from naming her as Jon's mother? None I can think of.

I think this is the biggest issue that people who think that Ned fathered Jon on Wylla or Ashara need to defend. If Jon's mother is just a lowly wet nurse, why the secrecy? If his mother is a supposedly dead Dayne, why the secrecy?

[Ghost714]

I don't think the Wylla had anything to do with the fisherman's story. How on earth would a woman employed at Starfall — about as far away from the Sisters area as you can get — end up there, or vice versa?

I have no idea what official story Ned told about how he met Wylla, but if people could accept that he had an affair with Ashara Dayne or was in love with her, I could see how they'd accept that he could have fathered a child on one of her servants. I think the story Davos heard is Grade A red herring in just about every respect.

I agree, what Lord Godric tells Davos, will most likely be believed by a lot of casual readers(one example being, the reason why we are even discussing this, because a casual reader believed what Godric told Davos, and then that casual reader tried to use that as proof against R+L=J ). Thus making it all the more shocking when R+L=J is revealed.

[SFDanny]

I don't think the Wylla had anything to do with the fisherman's story. How on earth would a woman employed at Starfall — about as far away from the Sisters area as you can get — end up there, or vice versa? I have no idea what official story Ned told about how he met Wylla, but if people could accept that he had an affair with Ashara Dayne or was in love with her, I could see how they'd accept that he could have fathered a child on one of her servants. I think the story Davos heard is Grade A red herring in just about every respect.

My guess is that the Targaryens employed people from all over their realm in their household. Wylla is just one of those household trusted servants that Rhaegar used. Perhaps she is part of his household on Dragonstone that he brings with him to King's Landing and later on to the Tower of Joy. She ends up in Dorne as a wet nurse to the heir of Starfall, but that doesn't mean she starts there.

No, there are lots of questions concerning Wylla's origins that need answers, but we have such a paucity of clues that it makes all answers speculation built on Martin's sparse bits of information. My thoughts are no more than that, but they are attempts to answer some of the clues. Why is it that Martin uses the name Wylla for other characters from this region and nowhere else? Why would a obscure Lord from the Sisters corroborate a story that looks more and more like a cover story to obscure Jon's origins? How is it that the people of Starfall, if their Lord is to be an example, seem to accept Wylla's story, but almost no one else has ever heard of her - again, possibly excepting Lord Godric? And most importantly, why is Wylla telling this story if she isn't protecting Jon the same way Ned is? What is her interest in protecting Jon? Is it as Rhaegar's equivalent of "Old Nan" - a loyal servant that would die rather than give over his son to be butchered?

We know Jon is conceived about the time of the Battle of the Bells, and that means that if Wylla's story was real she and Ned met up around that time - NOT months before when Ned travels north from the Vale to call his banners. So we also have to ask your question about how a woman from Dorne ends up - this time in the Riverlands - to encounter the young Lord of Winterfell? The more one looks a Wylla's claim the more it falls apart, but the more it has to be explained why others believe it.

Assuming Wylla's claim to be Jon's mother is a cover story, then it can't be because the people of Starfall know her to be (which they would if she was pregnant and gave birth there.) It is likely that they are convinced of the truth of her tale because she shows up with the new born Jon and claims he is hers. Just as it is likely that Ned's soldiers think Jon is Ashara's child because Ned shows up with the babe (without Wylla and her story) and tells the tale of his trip to Dorne and Ashara's death. They put two and two together and come up with Ashara - and Ned lets them. He only lies to Robert because he is the one person he must convince that the Wylla cover story is the truth.