Did Viserys Survive?

[Im With Stannis]

Hey, I've been lurking for a while and I had to join to pose this theory to the forum. I was thinking about this since reading ADWD. We know that there must be three heads to a dragon. One we know for sure is Dany. The other we can most likely guess is Jon Snow. Young Griff/Aegon popped out of no where, and I suspect very much he is a fraud because of the prophecy "Beware the mummer dragon."

So if Aegon is not who he says/thinks he is, then who is the third Targaryen? Well, matching up the three remaining Targs to their respective dragons: Dany matches with Drogon (named after Drogo, her husband), Snow would match with Rheagal matches with Snow since Rheagar would be his father. Who match with Viserion? Not Young Griff.

I remember back to Viserys's death, when he died and Dany said, "He wasn't a dragon, dragons don't burn." It doesn't make sense that he would die from molten gold while Dany wouldn't die from the pyre she lit. Maybe he survived? And, it has to make sense whoever ends up taming/riding Viserion. Thoughts?

[Jem]

GRRM has said that Dany surviving Drogo's funeral pyre is a one-off, magical, miraculous event. Despite whatever Viserys and Dany think and say, Targaryens are not fire proof and, in fact, fire has killed a number of their ancestors. I'm pretty sure Viserys is dead, at least I hope so for his sake because that was a particularly nasty and painful way to die, and it would be an even more nasty and painful thing to have survived.

Also GRRM has said that dragon riders don't necessarily have to be Targs.

[SI Monster]

Also GRRM has said that dragon riders don't necessarily have to be Targs.

Seeing what happened to the Frog Prince of Dorne, it probably helps to be a Targ.

... And Ramsay must die.

[Theo1]

No

[Arya_Stark666]

Visreys is definitely dead... unless somehow he became one of the Others, but even then he's still dead.

There's Dany, then there's that one old Targaryen on the Wall... unless he died and I've just forgotten. If not, I hope he'd go back once he sees how far Dany has come. I'm only on Storm of Swords but that'd be awesome if Jon was one of the heads!

Then I have to wonder... if Jon Snow IS one of the heads, perhaps once Dany finds out and finds him, she might marry him. Then their child would be the 3rd head. Again, I haven't read ADWD, so this may be highly improbable, but it sounds pretty neat from where I am haha

[Lord Snowflakes]

Viserys is dead... Dead, dead, dead!

[Net-Viper X]

He is definately dead, but his memory lives on every time we take a crap. :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany lies and/or speak metaphorically. :P Targaryens can and do burn and have done so before with some alarming frequency (Dance of the Dragons, Summerhall, Aerion Brightflame, Viserys). It's also not strictly true that they're immune to disease (see poor Daeron II). They're also not immune to dying from nasty blows to the head (see Breakspear, Baelor) or dying in battle (Maekar I).

They're not gods. They have some vested interest in passing on that "blood of Old Valyria" nonsense in order to elevate themselves above the unwashed masses, but they can be killed by, among other things, fire and disease. Dany surviving the funeral pyre was a one-off freak bit of magic and won't happen again.

[Ghost714]

I agree with the people that have said Danaerys is NOT "Fireproof".

GRRM has said in interviews, that Danaerys is not fireproof. GRRM said that Dany surviving Drogo's funeral pyre was a one time thing, as part of the result of Mirri Mazz Durr's blood magic. 

Dany does seem to have a higher tolerance to heat, like Egg. Egg from the D&E short stories, also seems to like, and proffer the heat. (the both don't mind really hot weather, and they both like really hot baths, even when it is super hot outside) 

But by no means does that mean they are "fireproof". 

Unfortunately the HBO TV Show does confuse alot of people, because the Show does make Dany seem fireproof. I am referring to that scene, when Dany picks up the dragon egg out of the brazier. Dany does not get burnt from the egg, but her handmaid does. That scene was not in the book!!!! Lol

Another scene that makes people think Dany is fireproof, is the scene in ADwD. I'm referring to the "some what" confusing scene, when Drogon crashes the party in the fighting pit. GRRM also explained this scene In an interview, but if you read the scene carefully it does not need explaining. A lot of readers think Dany survived a full on fire blast from Drogon. GRRM said that Dany ducked down and dodged the main part of Drogo's fire blast, but it was still close enough to hitting Dany, that it burnt off all of her hair. (again if you read that scene carefully, that is clearly what happened.) 

If you notice, when Dany pulls the spear out of Drogon, his blood made the spear so hot, that it severely burned Dany's palms. 

So In conclusion Targaryens may have a higher heat tolerance, and they may even proffer the heat , but they are not "Fireproof".

This is may or may not be "on topic", but I just want to add this to my post.

So when Jon burns his hand in the fire, saving The Old Bear, that "scene" by no means disproves R+L=J.

A lot of people say Jon isn't the son of Rhaegar, because he was able to be burned in AGoT, those people are wrong, when using that as "proof" against R+L=J, because again, Targaryens are not "fireproof" (key word being NoT)

[kephv]

If you notice, when Dany pulls the spear out of Drogon, his blood made the spear so hot, that it severely burned Dany's palms.

So In conclusion Targaryens may have a higher heat tolerance, and they may even proffer the heat , but they are not "Fireproof".

I want to see this interview. Also, unless the spear was made of steal, there's no way she would've burned her hands on it.

[FanTasy]

Unfortunately the HBO TV Show does confuse alot of people, because the Show does make Dany seem fireproof. I am referring to that scene, when Dany picks up the dragon egg out of the brazier. Dany does not get burnt from the egg, but her handmaid does. That scene was not in the book!!!! Lol

Yes, this particular confusion spreads across threads ;)

I saw the show before I read the books and when reading Dany's storyline in AGOT I thought: huh?

Had to go back because I couldn't imagine why they (ETA the good folks at HBO) were going along this path and strayed from the scenes in the book that lead up to Dany's confidence that she can hatch the eggs, why she wants to burn Mirri Maz Duur not for revenge but as the third death that pays for life, for the life of the three dragons.

In the book the eggs are not burning other people while they are not so to Dany.

What is in effect in the book is a scene I think is crucial.

Dany feels warmth and life in the eggs. She gives them to Jorah to check and he says there is nothing inside, they are cold and stone. But Dany knows that is not the case, she was able to feel heat where other people could not. And she knows that laying the eggs in a brazer won't do the trick.

That Dany can feel heat where other people can't is just the opposite of that weird scene in the show!

That doesn't say she is fire proof, we know she is not. She can be burned - which would please a lot of people on this board who don't like what she has become :devil:

ETA and ow ... on topic ... no, Viserys is dead. He died horribly but his plot armor was non-existent from the beginnings of AGOT. He was doomed from the start.

[Fearsome Fred]

Given the ease at which Drogo melted his belt buckle in an ordinary stew pot over an ordinary cooking fire, and then simply grabbed the stew pot off the fire with mittens without his mittens catching fire, it is clear that his buckles were not really "pure gold" nor even painted lead. They must have been yellow wax. Painful, but not necessarily fatal. So yes. Viserys could still be alive.

[FanTasy]

Well, by coincidence I recently saw the process of melting gold with my own eyes. It doesn't take enormous heat to melt pure gold.

The guy who did had what seemed pretty ordinary mittens.

Pure gold is not suitable for wearing as a jewel, it bends and breaks down easy. That is why allmost gold jewelsrings and bracelets have something else in it, to strenghten.

[Fearsome Fred]

Well, by coincidence I recently saw the process of melting gold with my own eyes. It doesn't take enormous heat to melt pure gold.

Ummm. Yes it does.

The guy who did had what seemed pretty ordinary mittens.

If he grabbed the container directly with "ordinary" mittens, and the mittens did not catch fire, then the same logic applies. Dude, that was WAX or some other substance. It was not gold.

Pure gold is not suitable for wearing as a jewel, it bends and breaks down easy.

True but irrelevant. Pure gold melts at HIGHER temperatures than the harder gold-copper alloys.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Given the ease at which Drogo melted his belt buckle in an ordinary stew pot over an ordinary cooking fire, and then simply grabbed the stew pot off the fire with mittens without his mittens catching fire, it is clear that his buckles were not really "pure gold" nor even painted lead.

As someone who regularly melts lead over a simple candle (for molybdomancy, a New Year's eve tradition in Germany), let me tell you: It doesn't need that much heat and an ordinary pot over a cooking fire is not only enough, it would be quite the overkill.

Pure gold, as you say, has a significantly higher melting point (I think about 1000 instead of a little over 300 degrees), but gold alloys usually melt easier. In particular, even a very small fraction of zinc, indium, tin, cadmium or gallium very drastically lowers the melting point (while not influencing color).

[hotweaselsoup]

If he grabbed the container directly with "ordinary" mittens, and the mittens did not catch fire, then the same logic applies. Dude, that was WAX or some other substance. It was not gold.

Because it makes total sense that Khal Drogo would be wearing a wax belt buckle. I know that when I want to keep my pants up, there's nothing like a good gob of wax to make them nice and secure.

[Lady Octarina]

If that was gold or another substance, I don't think it matters (though it probably was - the dothraki steal goods, Drogo's belt could be pure gold, but anyway). Many people saw Viserys being "crowned" in that substance, someone certainly checked to see if he really was dead.And either way, that substance probably covered his nose and eyes, how could he survive that? We don't know if they burned or buried him (or do we?), but either way that would just prove his death. Unless ASoIaF became The Walking Dead, of course, and the zombie virus made him come back to life...

Then I have to wonder... if Jon Snow IS one of the heads, perhaps once Dany finds out and finds him, she might marry him. Then their child would be the 3rd head. Again, I haven't read ADWD, so this may be highly improbable, but it sounds pretty neat from where I am haha

A lovely idea - which means, it's very unlikely it would happen in ASoIaF. A Daenerys can't have kids anymore; it would probably take a hell lot of magic to cure her in that aspect... I believe a non-Targaryen will be the third rider - Tyrion could be a nice choice...

[Fearsome Fred]

Yes, you can melt a small piece of lead directly in a candle flame. You can melt it in an iron pot too, but the iron pot will become QUITE hot. You are not boiling grease. But in this case, I will concede that a good pair of oven mitts just MIGHT be able to handle a pot full of melted lead.

Using Drogo's methods, handling melting gold is out of the question. To my knowledge, all gold alloys used in jewelry melt at well above 800F.

Can you provide melting points for the zinc alloys you have in mind?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I fear we're becoming a bit off-topic technical, so I'll be brief:

Can you provide melting points for the zinc alloys you have in mind?

That even small additions of zinc, indium, tin, cadmium or gallium reduce the melting point significantly but keep the color true was just a translation of what I had just read on wikipedia.de, which didn't include melting points. But trawling the internet for a bit more info about gold-zinc alloys produced a graph of the actual melting points, depending on purity. (Keep in mind it's in °F.)

[Frey Pie]

Wheres he been if hes been alive all this time?The only weird thing i found about viserys' death is the lack of a burial. But iv never considered it that hes somehow alive and dontthink its possible.

Victarion will be the third dragon rider-viserion