Did Viserys Survive?

[Fearsome Fred]

I do not have the actual text in front of me so I don't know whether the following is consistent, but I just checked the HBO show and at least there the handles (as Fred suspected, there were two - the pot has two extending hollow tubes into which the handles are fitted) are wooden and the gloves look like leather. That would be ok for Drogo so he doesn't burn himself.

Umm, no. You don't use wooden parts on containers used to melt gold. The wood handles would burn to ash long before the gold melted. And leather gloves might offer more protection than horsehair, but they cannot handle glowing hot iron at the necessary temperatures.

[Fearsome Fred]

Horsehair is connected to isolation, Ye Old Google tells me. It was used in plaster and is used in matrass materials.

It isolates because horsehair is hollow.

Thanks for the interesting fun fact. It does show that GRRM did "some" research. However it does not help here. However isolating [insulating?] it may be, it is still flamable. It will burst into flame at the temperatures involved.

[The Sunset King]

The fact that in the show Daenerys is not burnt by the dragon eggs is one of the major ways by which the tv series encourages the idea of fire immunity. It was not just by what happened at the pyre. If there is no difference from any other person this scene sure did not help reinforce that. If, however, the point is that she is more heat resistant than normal but not immune to fire then what happened with the eggs would not be a plot hole. We know that the pyre thing was a one-off magical event but perhaps she is not quite as easily charred as normal. It is also possible of course that the egg thing simply is just something that does not match up properly and is not that important; will have to check AGOT again to see how it was handled there.

[Ghost714]

The fact that in the show Daenerys is not burnt by the dragon eggs is one of the major ways by which the tv series encourages the idea of fire immunity. It was not just by what happened at the pyre. If there is no difference from any other person this scene sure did not help reinforce that. If, however, the point is that she is more heat resistant than normal but not immune to fire then what happened with the eggs would not be a plot hole. We know that the pyre thing was a one-off magical event but perhaps she is not quite as easily charred as normal. It is also possible of course that the egg thing simply is just something that does not match up properly and is not that important; will have to check AGOT again to see how it was handled there.

Like others and I have said, Targaryen's may have a higher tolerance to heat, but they are not fireproof.

And I am positive that the scene in the HBO show of GoT, when Dany grabs the egg out of the brazier, and is not harmed from it, but her handmaid is......that scene was not in the actual GoT Book.

[FanTasy]

And I am positive that the scene in the HBO show of GoT, when Dany grabs the egg out of the brazier, and is not harmed from it, but her handmaid is......that scene was not in the actual GoT Book.

True. #11 up thread.

[Mumatil]

GRRM has said that Dany surviving Drogo's funeral pyre is a one-off, magical, miraculous event. Despite whatever Viserys and Dany think and say, Targaryens are not fire proof and, in fact, fire has killed a number of their ancestors. I'm pretty sure Viserys is dead, at least I hope so for his sake because that was a particularly nasty and painful way to die, and it would be an even more nasty and painful thing to have survived.

Also GRRM has said that dragon riders don't necessarily have to be Targs.

I remember reading that one of the ancestor's decided to eat wild fire.

Those Targayens....what a nutty and blood and fire thirsty bunch.

[Ladywhiskers]

Yeah. After getting educated about this from other posts i conceded she isnt fireproof :-(

However, I think its really easy to get misled. Most arguments that Dany is not fireproof are based on various SSMs and then you can find exceptions in the details from there. However, if you didnt have the SSMs i wonder if people would be suggesting otherwise. I mean, its only after her burns from Drogon that i thought she was partially fireproof. I was like WTF? she has burnt skin? How, when her hair burnt and she is ok, and she survived the pyre...

Oh well... i would have liked her to be the exception, where she was special and actually did have some magic dragon stuff in her blood that made her the key to the dragons hatching and some fireproofness.

Me, too. I would really have liked there to be a trait that allowed some Targs the ability to deal with dragons and not be burned by them, at least, not as easily as other humans.

Instead what we have here, is that Danaerys believes she is invulnerable to fire, but isn't. So GRRM has for all intents and purposes told us that she dies, and how. Thanks GRRM.

[Peter Middlefinger Balish]

there are three main characters in the series whose mothers' die in childbirth with them

jon, dany, tyrion

the dragon has three heads

[Lady Octarina]

there are three main characters in the series whose mothers' die in childbirth with them

jon, dany, tyrion

the dragon has three heads

Seems random, but since I agree with you that they should be the riders...

[The Oncoming Storm]

Viserys is definitely dead. Only that he sometimes gets to show up in Dany's dreams and visions to whine and be an asshole. I always expect him to say something important or wise or hinting, but nooooo. Even in hell, or wherever he went, he only cares about the "crown" business.

[Ghost714]

Me, too. I would really have liked there to be a trait that allowed some Targs the ability to deal with dragons and not be burned by them, at least, not as easily as other humans.

Instead what we have here, is that Danaerys believes she is invulnerable to fire, but isn't. So GRRM has for all intents and purposes told us that she dies, and how. Thanks GRRM.

What makes you think Danaerys believes she is invulnerable to fire? And how does that mean she is going to die?

And you don't have to be invulnerable to fire, to deal with Dragons. You just have to be smart about it, and try and train the Dragon not to burn you. (isn't that what Targaryens of old did? They controlled the Dragons with spells, and magic Dragon horns....and it had nothing to do with being fireproof.) didn't GRRM also say you don't have to be a Targaryen to ride a Dragon(although I'm sure being a Targaryen could help, when riding a Dragon...being the blood of the Dragon, and having the blood of old Valyria and all)

[Net-Viper X]

What makes you think Danaerys believes she is invulnerable to fire? And how does that mean she is going to die?

She says of her brothers death that "he was no dragon, fire cannon kill a dragon". That makes it pretty clear that she believed true Targs to be fireproof. Later she refers to her own anger as "waking the dragon" just like her brother did, implying that she considers herself a dragon now. The fact that she walks into a giant funeral pyre happily also shows that she believes she is immune to fire, since she was clearly not suicidal at the time.

I think the reason people believe she will die by fire is because of how adamant the author has been in insisting that the Targs and specifically Dany are not fireproof. He seems very driven by this fact, in a way that could be taken as evidence of her getting burned later.

[Ghost714]

She says of her brothers death that "he was no dragon, fire cannon kill a dragon". That makes it pretty clear that she believed true Targs to be fireproof. Later she refers to her own anger as "waking the dragon" just like her brother did, implying that she considers herself a dragon now. The fact that she walks into a giant funeral pyre happily also shows that she believes she is immune to fire, since she was clearly not suicidal at the time.

I think the reason people believe she will die by fire is because of how adamant the author has been in insisting that the Targs and specifically Dany are not fireproof. He seems very driven by this fact, in a way that could be taken as evidence of her getting burned later.

I don't believe Dany thinks she is fireproof at all.

Here is a post from "PatrickStormborn", a few posts back. (I see it the same way they do, in regards to what Dany said, about Viserys not being a real dragon etc.)

"PatrickStormborn" explained it perfectly in there post, here it is...

"Daenerys is not referring to Targaryens when she says that "fire cannot kill a dragon". She's being serious: fire can't kill dragons. At this point she realises that Viserys, who before had been running around calling himself a "dragon", is just a scared, weak man, and not the powerful dragon/god that he seems to think he is."

And as far as Dany walking into Drogo's funeral pyre, I don't think Dany did that, because she thought she was fireproof.

I think Dany had faith in her plan to take advantage of the blood magic, done by Mirri Mazz Durr. Dany had an "epiphany" so to speak, and knew that she could take advantage of the situation, again in regards to MMD's blood magic.

Also i want to point out something else. When Dany rushes into the fighting pit to save/stop Drogo(she wants to save him from being killed, and stop him from killing anyone else). During this scene Drogo shoots fire at Dany. My point is, if Dany thought she was "fireproof", then why did she duck down and dodge the blast? Why didn't she just stand there and let it hit her, knowing that she is fireproof? The answer is, she dodged the blast, because she knows that she is NOT fireproof.

Also in regards to your theory on why Dany will die by fire.

You said,

"I think the reason people believe she will die by fire is because of how adamant the author has been in insisting that the Targs and specifically Dany are not fireproof. He seems very driven by this fact, in a way that could be taken as evidence of her getting burned later."

Your saying that GRRM has been so adamant, in showing that Dany and Targaryens are not fireproof. Do you mean in the books GRRM is being so adamant about showing they aren't fireproof? Because if that is the case, then why do so many people believe that Dany is fireproof? (those people that believe that are wrong, but there are still a lot of people who believe that Dany is fireproof.)

[Net-Viper X]

I was talking about how GRRM seems to point out that she isn't fireproof and the funeral pyre thing was a one time deal. At interviews and such he has done this, not in the books. As for dodging a blast of fire, I think that would be a natural reaction to something like that, instinct would take over. Just because you can't be killed by fire doesn't mean it wouldn't bear the possibility of hurting like hell. In plenty of stuff where a character is immortal for whatever reason, they can't die, but they can still feel pain and getting stabbed or burned still hurts as bad as it would for a mortal. In this same way I could see her believing she is unkillable by fire but still able to feel it enough for it to hurt.

[Ghost714]

I was talking about how GRRM seems to point out that she isn't fireproof and the funeral pyre thing was a one time deal. At interviews and such he has done this, not in the books. As for dodging a blast of fire, I think that would be a natural reaction to something like that, instinct would take over. Just because you can't be killed by fire doesn't mean it wouldn't bear the possibility of hurting like hell. In plenty of stuff where a character is immortal for whatever reason, they can't die, but they can still feel pain and getting stabbed or burned still hurts as bad as it would for a mortal. In this same way I could see her believing she is unkillable by fire but still able to feel it enough for it to hurt.

In your last post, you said- "The fact that she walks into a giant funeral pyre happily also shows that she believes she is immune to fire,"

Would Dany happily walk into a fire, thinking Oh shit this is going to hurt, but at least it won't kill me?? I mean your posts kind of contradict themselves. Your saying that Dany was happy one minute to walk into a fire, "knowing it would hurt", but it wouldn't "kill her"...and the next minute she ducks from fire, because she knew that it would hurt??? Something is not right here, and I believe it's your logic, and not Dany's. The truth is, Dany does not think she is "fireproof".

Dany may however like heat, and Targaryens may even have a higher heat tolerance. Dany may be aware of this, but that does not mean she thinks she is fireproof.

When I say Targaryens may have a higher heat tolerance, or that Targaryens like the heat, I am referring to Dany liking really hot bath water and stuff. I am also referring to Egg, from the Dunk and Egg short stories. In the Dunk and Egg short stories (specifically The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight), Dunk is thinking to himself how it's to hot outside to do anything, and how he is sweating his ass off. Dunk then thinks of Egg not sweating at all, ever, even though Dunk himself is sweating bullets. Another time when he is taking a bath he thinks about how even though it's reall hot out, Egg still takes a bath in scalding hot water.

Those are just a few examples of Targaryens showing a higher heat tolerance, and a "liking" for the heat. But that certainly does not mean they are fireproof. And Dany certainly doesn't believe she is immune to fire.

As far as GRRM pointing out Dany not being fireproof, in interviews.

I think GRRM is pointing this out, because so many people were confused from Dany burning her hands in ADwD, because those people believed Dany was fireproof.

You seem to believe that GRRM is pointing this out, because he doesn't want people to be confused when Dany dies by fire? That's what you mean right?

GRRM could be doing this for the reason that you think he is , I mean anything is possible. But I have only ever heard GRRM mention Dany not being fireproof, when people ask how it is possible that Dany's hands were burnt in ADwD.

I definitely think its possible that Dany could die, but I believe this would only happen at the end of the books. And hypothetically speaking, I can only really see Dany's death being caused by fighting the Others, not by fire. (same for Jon Snow, fighting the Others is the only way I can see the death of Jon)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She says of her brothers death that "he was no dragon, fire cannon kill a dragon". That makes it pretty clear that she believed true Targs to be fireproof. Later she refers to her own anger as "waking the dragon" just like her brother did, implying that she considers herself a dragon now. The fact that she walks into a giant funeral pyre happily also shows that she believes she is immune to fire, since she was clearly not suicidal at the time.

I think the reason people believe she will die by fire is because of how adamant the author has been in insisting that the Targs and specifically Dany are not fireproof. He seems very driven by this fact, in a way that could be taken as evidence of her getting burned later.

We also have a precedent for Targaryens doing stupid things with fire and dying because of it. Foreshadowing?

[LuisDantas]

Post #31 makes lots of sense to me. Aerion (from The Hedge Knight) had an odd habit of calling himself "The Dragon", and implicitly selling himself as the True Representative of the Targaryens. He is a lot like Viserys in that respect, as well as in many others.

I can totally see Viserys convincing himself, or at least Dany, that he is immune to fire or even a Dragon in human form (as other Targaryens before him did). Seeing him reduced to begging for his life shattered any delusions that Dany might have had about his destined grandeur, and therefore of "being The Dragon".

As for Viserys being alive, no chance. Regardless of what exact materials were used in handling and melting it, we know for a fact that Viserys received a headful of molten metal or alloy on his head. That is pretty fatal. Even if it was just molten wax, the shock alone might well kill him.

Even if he survived that, how could he free himself from a solid metal helmet that covered his eyes and most of his head, probably his nose and quite possibly his mouth as well? Assuming that they are functional to begin with, of course. Doing that while _also_ avoiding notice from the forty thousand Dothraki around him that know that he threatened their Khaleesi and her son is just plain impossible. The Dothraki WILL strangle him on the spot if need be.

[iamthedave]

Viserys is definitely dead. Only that he sometimes gets to show up in Dany's dreams and visions to whine and be an asshole. I always expect him to say something important or wise or hinting, but nooooo. Even in hell, or wherever he went, he only cares about the "crown" business.

Problem is that Dany seems to be coming round to his way of thinking now...

[Ladywhiskers]

She says of her brothers death that "he was no dragon, fire cannon kill a dragon". That makes it pretty clear that she believed true Targs to be fireproof. Later she refers to her own anger as "waking the dragon" just like her brother did, implying that she considers herself a dragon now. The fact that she walks into a giant funeral pyre happily also shows that she believes she is immune to fire, since she was clearly not suicidal at the time.

I think the reason people believe she will die by fire is because of how adamant the author has been in insisting that the Targs and specifically Dany are not fireproof. He seems very driven by this fact, in a way that could be taken as evidence of her getting burned later.

Exactly. We have here a character who says that fire can't kill a dragon, and by a dragon she does mean a Targaryen, specifically herself. She watches Viserys die from severe burns, and says to herself, "He wasn't a dragon. Fire can't kill a dragon." Well, obviously she knew he wasn't a giant fire-breathing lizard. What she didn't know was that he could in fact be killed by having molten metal poured on his head.

When she says "fire can't kill a dragon," she's talking about herself. There aren't any other dragons in existence at that time. She also believes that she can't catch diseases, because dragons don't. (Probably true, considering how hot their blood is. Germs probably can't live in it.)

She doesn't KNOW fire can burn her. One of her titles is even, "Danaerys Unburnt." She survived a funeral pyre hot enough to hatch dragon's eggs, which she walked into instinctively "knowing" that she wouldn't burn. Since she hasn't read any interviews with GRRM, she has absolutely NO reason to think that this was a one-time thing. None.

Ducking the flames in the pit was a human reflex, not a deliberate act. She wasn't concerned about the fire, not even when the spear burned her palms. She is either deluded (as was the audience,) by what happened in the funeral pyre, or worse, she's as crazy as the ancestors who drank wildfire or burned down Summer Hall. When you have a character who thinks she's fireproof, who owns 3 dragons and rides one of 'em bareback, well, she's charcoal. The only question is when, not if.

[Ghost714]

Problem is that Dany seems to be coming round to his way of thinking now...

Care to elaborate?