US Politics Not-Actually-V: DSV

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Bass,

That's what ICBMs and nuclear submarines are for. But more seriously, the Soviets did have troops in various places around the world, such as Cuba. They didn't have as many scattered as the US (despite having a much larger Army), because their blue-water Navy was much weaker.

Yes. Which is why you don't hear Ron Paul agitating to eliminate the US Navy.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LoB,

Let's not forget, Saving Private Ryan or "The Greatest Generation" crap or not, that the United States was close to joining Germany in that war until they couldn't.

I think you are confusing the political situation in the US prior to WWI and WWII. There was some agitation prior to the Zimmerman jote for the US to enter WWI for the Germans. Germans, at the time were the second largest ethnic group in the US with many German Language newspapers being published around the nation. Prior to WWII there was some nazi agitation but havin fought the Germans in WWI most were sympathetic to the British. Further FDR was pretty open about who he was backing, look at the "Lend/Lease acts". I seriously doubt he would have allowed the US to enter on the sid ofthe Nazi's while he was in office.

[Lord O' Bones]

I think you are confusing the political situation in the US prior to WWI and WWII.

I might be mistaken, but I am not confused.

There was some agitation prior to the Zimmerman jote for the US to enter WWI for the Germans. Germans, at the time were the second largest ethnic group in the US with many German Language newspapers being published around the nation.

2nd largest ethnic group? Behind whom? Do you realize how crazy this point is?

Prior to WWII there was some nazi agitation but havin fought the Germans in WWI most were sympathetic to the British.

If this wan't pure conjecture it would then be irrelevant. As I have been saying, nothing stays exactly the same over 30 years unless it's made of granite. Maybe. And human opinions or politics are certainly not made of granite.

Further FDR was pretty open about who he was backing, look at the "Lend/Lease acts". I seriously doubt he would have allowed the US to enter on the sid ofthe Nazi's while he was in office.

Almost positive that I said exactly that. Every time this subject has come up over the last 6 years. Granted, I used a LOT of brevity this last time, but I trust your memory better than that.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LoB,

The second largest behind the English. Why is that point "crazy".

Here's the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American

From the wiki on German Americans prior to WWI:

During World War I, German Americans were sometimes accused of being too sympathetic to the German Empire. Former president Theodore Roosevelt denounced "hyphenated Americanism", insisting that dual loyalties were impossible in wartime. A small minority came out for Germany, or ridiculed the British (as did H. L. Mencken). Similarly, Harvard psychology professor Hugo Münsterberg dropped his efforts to mediate between America and Germany, and threw his efforts behind the German cause.[48]

The Justice Department attempted to prepare a list of all German aliens, counting approximately 480,000 of them, more than 4,000 of whom were imprisoned in 1917-18. The allegations included spying for Germany, or endorsing the German war effort.[49] Thousands were forced to buy war bonds to show their loyalty.[50] The Red Cross barred individuals with German last names from joining in fear of sabotage. One person was killed by a mob; in Collinsville, Illinois, German-born Robert Prager was dragged from jail as a suspected spy and lynched.[51] A Minnesota minister was tarred and feathered when he was overheard praying in German with a dying woman.[52]

[Lord O' Bones]

The second largest behind the English. Why is that point "crazy".

Because it doesn't matter. And if it did, it would mean that the US would side with the UK no matter what. Because we say shit and they say shite? And ze Germans say Sheizer?

ETA: Really? That we were dicks to people makes any difference to this discussion?

IT'S WHAT WE ALWAYS DO.

Which moment of horrible racism need I remind you of? In any case, the war or the slavery or the genocide was more of an economic decision than whether or not we shared a language or fought for one another in the last war.

I know you know this.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Schiesen.

[MinDonner]

lol

[Lord O' Bones]

Schiesen.

You win. I give up.

[MinDonner]

Scheiße, guys. Happy Ent will cry.

[Tempra]

Americans don't use letters from make believe alphabets.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LoB, Min,

:)

I love you guys.

[Galactus]

Why is this hard to believe? How close were Germany and England to being allies?

The war started, corporate America wanted to declare for Germany, FDR held out, Japan fucked up, and here we are.

In a nutshell.

There was no serious agitation for entering the war on Germany's side. (there would be no reason to, as far as most people saw it they were winning) even among the most pro-german segments of the US. Advocating isolationism and letting the germans win the war themselves was another matter...

[Lord O' Bones]

Advocating isolationism and letting the germans win the war themselves was another matter...

Effectively, how was that another matter? IBM, Disney etc. were actively in support. Had not Britain been absurdly stalwart, Germany made a few critical errors, Russia being also ridiculously stalwart, and Japan making one critical error. The US would have just relaxed and watched Germany take over the part of the world we were ok with them taking over.

I guess I'm mostly annoyed with the whole "we were the good guys" attitude we have over here when we didn't fucking bother until a preposterous amount of fuck ups forced us into it.

You may have noticed: this misperception has made many of us completely insufferable ever since.

[paddington]

The German fuck-up was declaring war on the USA, if they hadn't its possible that the US may never have entered the war in Europe. I am not sure how likely that would have been though, as there would have been need to co-operate in the pacific anyways.

[MinDonner]

Is that true? I would have assumed that as Germany and Japan were allies, post-Pearl Harbor the US was effectively at war with Germany also, regardless of separate declaration.

[paddington]

It maybe just the case that Germany beat the US to the declaration. Does bring up alot of interesting what if's though.

[Hereward]

No, Germany was not automatically at war with the US as a result of Pearl Harbour, and the Germans weren't obligated to declare war either. In fact the Japanese were very surprised by the German declaration.

[Lord O' Bones]

Germany may have beaten the US to the declaration. But only if they knew what Japan was about to do before we did.

Which is debatable.

Germany was likely thinking "are you fucking serious!?" while the US was thinking "are you fucking serious!?" while Britain was thinking "thank god!" and anyone in Japan that knew anything was thinking *facepalm*

[slayer420]

No, Germany was not automatically at war with the US as a result of Pearl Harbour, and the Germans weren't obligated to declare war either. In fact the Japanese were very surprised by the German declaration.

Germany declaired on Japan?

[Hereward]

Germany declaired on Japan?

No. Germany was not automatically at war with the USA because its ally Japan declared war/attacked the USA. Nor was it obligated under the terms of the alliance to declare war on the USA.