Tempra Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I have. The obligation is to declare war on any power that attacked one of the members, not the other way around.Fair point. I suppose Germany/Italy could have declared that provision void as it pertains to Japan's war with the United States. However, if Germany/Italy do not assist Japan, then the entire agreement is essentially pointless. Japan's act of war put Germany in a tough spot that basically forced their hand against the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Raidne,I wouldn't call LoB a troll just a great derailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Yes, it does seem to be splitting hairs at that point. Germany is only obliged to join in if the US attacks back? What are the chances of that NOT happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Fair point. I suppose Germany/Italy could have declared that provision void as it pertains to Japan's war with the United States. However, if Germany/Italy do not assist Japan, then the entire agreement is essentially pointless. Japan's act of war put Germany in a tough spot that basically forced their hand against the US.I disagree. As I said, Japan did not expect or request that Germany declare war against the US, nor did Japan then feel obligated to actively join the war against the USSR, so their gratitude or legal requirement cannot have been that great. Germany declared war on the USA because Hitler believed he would have to defeat them eventually and, as he was invincible, now was as good a time as any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 But we did fire first.I could school you on this by my lonesome. But we are surrounded by people that could school me about how I didn't completely and totally accurately school you. Take heed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I wonder, does this reading of alliance self-defence provisions mean that under the NATO Treaty obligation we could attack Ireland and the US et al would have to join in if Ireland had the temerity to defend itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Dunno about you, but I'm up for it. Tally ho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 This does not belie history. In fact pointing to private companies as movers and shakers in anything we did back then makes more sense than even now. I have no idea how you can even argue this.Yes we had agreements and treaties and what not, we also funneled money into Germany until the Japanese blew the fuck out of Pearl Harbor. The amount of biscuits we got to England or how feebly we battled the Wolfpack to that point is laughable.I am not sure how you think a bunch of Disney cartoons sympathetic to Germany were more important than billions of dollars in aid and naval escorts to the Allies. Of course, Raidne hit the nail on its head about you trolling, so I will bow out now...In retrospect. Yay us! In retrospect! And ignoring the fact that the Germans and Japanese were for the most part neither Nazis nor Imperialists. Just people.Yeah, every German I ever met always fought in the resistance, too...heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I'm surprised at that. I always assumed Japan did a little bit to help out Germany given it was tieing up the USA in Europe. Or even creating a stalemate there is Germany defeated Russia. Especially given a decent chunk of the Japenese army was available in China (or is my history wrong there as well?).Because the Japanese were scared shitless of the russians. They'd been bloodied at the battle of Khalkin Ghol and wanted absolutely nothing to do with fighting the russians again if they could help it.Note that when the russians did invade Manchuria/Sakhalin in '45 they lost about 30,000 men... And killed 80,000 and captured half a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 See? This trolling is a group effort. Bones may deserve the MVP but the whole team deserves the medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 See? This trolling is a group effort. Bones may deserve the MVP but the whole team deserves the medal.Man Person of the match, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I am not sure how you think a bunch of Disney cartoons sympathetic to Germany were more important than billions of dollars in aid and naval escorts to the Allies. Of course, Raidne hit the nail on its head about you trolling, so I will bow out now...Laugh out loud, what!? None of this makes sense and none of this is what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Laugh out loud, what!? None of this makes sense and none of this is what I said.You said:Let's not forget, Saving Private Ryan or "The Greatest Generation" crap or not, that the United States was close to joining Germany in that war until they couldn't.There's absolutely no indication that the US, or even any serious group in the US, wanted to join Germany in the war. None. Zilch. Nada. Even those groups in the US who were pro-german were agitating for staying out of the war, not entering it on the german side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Perhaps "joining" was too strong a term?But as you have stated, the US would have sat the whole thing out until Germany won if not for several poor decisions. None of which involve cartoons. Which is a complete distraction by Tempra, intentional or not. The money funneled to Germany by American corporations was the point.But meh. If Raidne thinks I'm a troll now and Hereward thinks it's worth a medal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Germany declared war on the USA because Hitler believed he would have to defeat them eventually and, as he was invincible, now was as good a time as any.I agree, and would add that from what I have read, Hitler was a great believer in "This is the time!" moments, so when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, he thought he recognized the perfect opportunity to take on an enemy whom (as Hereward said) he'd have to defeat eventually.I also read that Hitler believed that great nations do not have war declared upon them; they declare war. That's crazy, of course, but it seems like the Fuhrer's brand of crazy.It's kind of interesting (and spooky) to think what might have happened had Hitler been a bit less of a megalomaniac and a bit more far-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Perhaps "joining" was too strong a term?But as you have stated, the US would have sat the whole thing out until Germany won if not for several poor decisions.None of which involve cartoons. Which is a complete distraction by Tempra, intentional or not. The money funneled to Germany by American corporations was the point.Nah, seriously: the Two Oceans Act, lend-lease, destroyers for bases and effective war against the Kriegsmarine from early '41 - no one in the German High Command thought you guys were about to knife the poms, which as Heres-y says is why they declared war on Dec 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 1940 isn't 1930, dang it. None of this shit happened in an instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 It's true that you guys and the Poms aren't natural allies and the two countries could have come to blows in the 20s or 30s but a metric shit-ton of stuff would have to have been different for it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 LoB,There wasn't a war in Europe for the US to be involved in until, 1939. Hitler didn't come to power until 1934. American sympathies for Germany in 1930 don't seem terribly relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartTesla Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 What does any of this have to do with Romney's chances in Florida?I too have read books about WWII and would like to contribute, but maybe someone can start a WWII- XXXXX thread where we can debate counterfactuals and American cultural affinities to Germany (it's true) and other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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