Drawing greatswords: could GRRM have made a mistake?

[Ygrain]

At Ned's execution, ser Illyn draws Ice from a scabbard on his back; at Joff's wedding, he draws the other six-feet-long sword over his shoulder. Both swords are greatswords, so I suppose the two description are complementary and both mean "he drew the sword from the scabbard on his back over his shoulder". The thing is, as far as my limited knowledge and some googling allow, you cannot draw a greatsword of this length from a traditional full-length scabbard. The medieval greatswords were not razor-sharp, since they were used primarily for thrusting, not slashing, and thus the edge did not have to be fully covered. The scabbard was then made from two parts, one about a foot long at the shoulder, and the other covering only the tip. Thus, when you partially drew the blade, it slid from the tip and you could manoeuvre the blade in a way that allowed you to extend the arc and reach to fully draw (and even so, you needed long arms).

Unfortunately, I don't have my AGOT: could someone provide the description how Ned carried Ice and if there ever was a more detailed description of the scabbard?

[mooezmarez]

during the execution of the night's watchman, the sword is described as follows:

"It was wide across a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke"

Unfortunately, here, there is no description of the scabbard or how Ned wields it as it is Theon who brings forward the sword for him.

Later on, when Ned cleans it in the godswood, only the fact that it is a very long sword is provided and that it is in Ned's lap. No specific parameters, at least the ones you are interested in.

[FanTasy]

Never thought about it. Great post.

Sadly my family neglected to own a family heirloom greatsword, so I can't practice drawing it when carrying it on my back.

But I get a hunch you can't draw it easily. Maybe that's why they had squires, to hand the sword when needed.

AGOT Prologue Ned dismounts when the deserter is brought to the block. "Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword."

How Payne pulled it off at the execution ... "he drew the sword from the scabbard on his back over his shoulder" ... beats me.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Well it's easy enough when I do it in Skyrim.

[The Shadowbinder]

Your point about the two piece scabbard that enables someone to draw it over their shoulder sounds good and appears historically accurate... Since there's no other details mentioned about the scabbard maybe this is all there is to it?

I've wondered about the same thing, but never knew about the greatsword scabbard as you explained it. I like your answer, that's how I'm imagining it from now on.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sometimes GRRM strays from historical correctness and adheres to standard fantasys cliches. That is one of them. It is flat out impossible to draw a sword of substantial length from your back. In my case, two feet from point to crossguard are maximum, and I'm taller than most.

Another would be Robbs cavalry being faster than Tywins combined force. While cavalry would gain a head start, after a week the roles would be reversed, horses lack the necessary endurance.

The medieval greatswords were not razor-sharp, since they were used primarily for thrusting, not slashing, and thus the edge did not have to be fully covered. The scabbard was then made from two parts, one about a foot long at the shoulder, and the other covering only the tip. Thus, when you partially drew the blade, it slid from the tip and you could manoeuvre the blade in a way that allowed you to extend the arc and reach to fully draw (and even so, you needed long arms).

That would be a very modern concept. And it is a bad one. The point of the sheath is to protect the entire blade, which this couldn't do. Also, it wouldn't hold the sword reliably. And a sheath of that size would be a liability in combat

Either carry the sword in hand if you need it quickly, or take the five seconds necessary to take the sheath down, draw it from your hand and throw the sheath away.

[The Shadowbinder]

Couldn't the sheath be made of leather and wood, in say 3 sections, so there are two hinges along its length - which would allow it to flex as the sword is drawn in an arc as well as providing a comparable level of protection as any other wood/leather sheath?

And as someone else pointed out I think part of a squires duty would be to hand their sire their greatsword before or during battle. Drawing any sword from a back scabbard while wearing full plate would be tiring, awkward and very exposing.

[FanTasy]

And while riding it would simply not fit on your back if held vertically :cool4: So I think carrying it on your back is just for hiking trips, with no horse or squire available.

[FanTasy]

Maybe this is helpful: http://www.silvermane.com/acatalog/baldrics.html

[The Drunkard]

I've always wondered how you could pull a really big sword from a scabbard on your back.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Couldn't the sheath be made of leather and wood, in say 3 sections, so there are two hinges along its length - which would allow it to flex as the sword is drawn in an arc as well as providing a comparable level of protection as any other wood/leather sheath?

And as someone else pointed out I think part of a squires duty would be to hand their sire their greatsword before or during battle. Drawing any sword from a back scabbard while wearing full plate would be tiring, awkward and very exposing.

No. The problem is not the sheath but the distance between the sheath and your hand. So, from shoulder to wrist is two feet or less even with the arm completely stretched. How do you propose to draw a three, four or maybe five feet long blade from said shoulder?

If you look closely at the films were actors draw swords from their back, you will notice that there isn't a singe instance were you get a complete view of it. That is no coincidence, you are being tricked to believe it, but it is not possible.

[Ygrain]

Sometimes GRRM strays from historical correctness and adheres to standard fantasys cliches. That is one of them. It is flat out impossible to draw a sword of substantial length from your back. In my case, two feet from point to crossguard are maximum, and I'm taller than most.

That would be a very modern concept. And it is a bad one. The point of the sheath is to protect the entire blade, which this couldn't do. Also, it wouldn't hold the sword reliably. And a sheath of that size would be a liability in combat

Either carry the sword in hand if you need it quickly, or take the five seconds necessary to take the sheath down, draw it from your hand and throw the sheath away.

Years ago, a friend of mine tried drawing over his shoulder with the replica of a sabre from the American civil war period. It didn't seem very long, but he was unable to draw it. That's why it struck me as impossible to draw a greatsword like that and I started looking around. None of the books on medieval weapons we have at home mentioned specifically ways of carrying greatswords, though I did get an impression that they were used mainly at tourneys and were transported together with the knights' belongings and never worn on the back. The information I provided above comes from a discussion on some forums where the guys seemed to be quite knowledgeable (i.e., more knowledgeable than myself, which is not very difficult).

- Now that I think of it: Ned was supposed to use Ice in battles - does this mean he fought on foot? Or can you even use a two-handed sword when fighting on horseback?

[FanTasy]

If you are very strong you may use one hand, I suppose. Wasn't Gregor at the Hands Tourney described as doing so?

ETA No. AGOT Eddard VIII. Gregor falls, horse and all. He calls for his sword and his squire brings it to him.

After killing that poor horse he strides towards Loras, bloody sword clutched in his fist.

But later:

<Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage two-handed blow.>

It is not described if Sandor used one hand or two hands.

[Ygrain]

If you are very strong you may use one hand, I suppose. Wasn't Gregor at the Hands Tourney described as doing so?

ETA No. AGOT Eddard VIII. Gregor falls, horse and all. He calls for his sword and his squire brings it to him.

After killing that poor horse he strides towards Loras, bloody sword clutched in his fist.

But later:

<Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage two-handed blow.>

It is not described if Sandor used one hand or two hands.

Well, even if he did wield it single-handedly, Gregor is not exactly a good example of common use, is he :-)

[The GRRumbler]

In the TV adaptation, Eddard uses at his hip. From the duel against Oberyn, Gregor uses single-handed, but he is huge enough for it, what i wonder is, if a greatsword is so big, using it at your hip, would'nt it hit the ground?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

In the TV adaptation, Eddard uses at his hip. From the duel against Oberyn, Gregor uses single-handed, but he is huge enough for it, what i wonder is, if a greatsword is so big, using it at your hip, would'nt it hit the ground?

Depends. Greatsword and bastardsword are modern terms not exactly defined. The renaissance era swords are called "langes schwert" and are best described in german fechtbuchs of the era. Not that they are better defined, but they are closer to bastardswords. And these can be worn at the hip, especially slanted at an angle. But normally, these guys would ride to battle, the sheath not being an issue.

The iconic greatswords of the landsknechts were carried in hand, with the flat of the blade resting on your shoulder or with the storage.

[fluffywarthog]

When you see greatswords used in TV and movies, it's usually in the "Star Wars" style of swinging wildly with two hands. Very few two-handed swords were used without heavy leather-and-mail gloves, and most were designed with an unsharpened quarter of the blade exposed above the hilt. By placing the shoulder so far above the hilt, it creates a natural pivot point right at the hilt, allowing more of the sword's weight to be used. By using two hands wherever they're needed at the moment in a fight, the wielder can bludgeon, punch, shove, and block against attacks, rather than just keep swinging and wasting momentum.

A fight with a greatsword was closer to a skilled brawl with a very large hunk of metal that happened to have a blade and point on it; most sword-and-shield styles had trouble dealing with this kind of opponent. As swords became less a weapon of last resort for heavy cavalry, and more a plaything for nobles, they got lighter, thinner, and more pointed, economizing effort and strength.

The more well-known zweihaender and other forms use a much-longer grip and require much more upper body strength, while minimizing defensive capability. This sword dates from a later (and very short) era, when plate armor could substitute for a shield, and the swords were only used by shock troops and mercenaries for countering large-scale pike formations, opening the way up for traditional cavalry exploitation.

[The Mother of The Others]

These greatswords have to be a penis thing.

It's like carrying your own death with you into battle. If they really were mainly for thrusting and not slashing, all someone has to do is parry and get in close to you so you can't use your sword effectively. It must be all about leverage, then? Use the sword to clear people out so they don't get within that radius of the blade. Lean into people with the big sword until they fall down or until you can otherwise get the clearance you need to line someone up for the big plunge into their guts. Or are these greatswords a fable and that's why it's tough to picture them working well? Especially in a large battle where you'd tire out quickly from swinging the thing, it seems like a stunt and not a successful tactic.

Okay, doing things in reverse as per usual, I've now read the post above mine, and that helped me visualize this. So it'd be like a statement sword saying 'By gum, I'm going to get stuff done on the battlefield.' So the other guys would be like "Holy crap, Eddard's joined the fray! Now we'll see that formation of shieldmen get cleared out so they're not blocking the road anymore!"

[Bright Blue Eyes]

"lange schwerter" were a very versatile weapon fit for about every occassion. Not necessarily the best in every given situation, but always good and very flexible. The whole greatswords against pikes seems to be a legend, but the cause isn't exactly clear. It is more likely that mercenaries with these swords were used to guard the banner, the officers or the moneybox. More like special forces instead of line soldiers. It is more a weapon for a single guy anyway.

One way or the other, they could be used against armored and unarmored foes in about every distance from six foot away toward pressing his breastplate on yours. It is all a manner of skill (and halfswording). If you are interested, google Liechtenauer or Talhoffer, two fencing masters from 14xx whose fechtbuchs are available in the web (and were the most influential of their time).

[ckal]

I was actually looking at this today, and apparently it is historically inaccurate, and quite impossible to even draw a shorter sword from your back in any way that is not incredibly awkward and time consuming.