Hitting your kid...

[Minaku]

Heh. Heh. heh.

Here's something that hasn't come up. What happens if you try to give a kid a punishment such as a time-out, and they just refuse to go to their room?

What do you do? Just kind of curious.

On a different note, one day, I figured out I'd try the old "command voice" on my daughter when she was getting out of line. The full-throated, deep, from the bottom of the diaphram loud voice we used in the Marines to give orders when marching, or to be heard over gunfire, etc..

I have to say that it absolutely terrified her. She ran to her room, and then after that, if she was ever about to get in trouble for something, she'd say "please don't use the loud voice daddy."

I'm not sure how that plays out in this whole discussion. It wasn't physical, but damn, it was really effective. On the other hand, it also really scared the shit out of her, so I'm not sure it was "better" in any moral sense than a slap on the butt. I literally did it only twice, and after that, me just saying "do you want me to use the loud voice" was enough to get her to stop what she was doing or to fell some instant remorse for what she's done. But honestly, though, I really didn't like the feeling of doing that.

My son knows about the "no" voice, since I use it like a whip on my cat. He gets three chances to obey and on chance number three, if he doesn't listen come hell or high water, the thing I want will get done. Some might argue that three is too many but toddlers seriously have selective hearing so you can say their name 100 times and they won't actually hear you.

He knows I'm serious when I tell him I'm not going to ask him nicely again.

[Balefont]

That's because mom's are amazing.

[Isalie]

But it may mean at least behaving like you have respect. Which, if we're talking about an educational environment, is rather important.

I'll try to give an example that seems to crop up a lot. At least, based on some parents I've talked to.

Kids sometimes get in trouble in school, get bad grades, etc. I was taught that excuses don't matter. If you get in trouble in school, than 90% of the time, you were going to get in worse trouble at home. Teachers were given the benefit of the doubt and backed up by parents. I don't think that happens nearly as much anymore. It sometimes stuns me how many parents seem to object if their kid is disciplined for talking too much in class. They'll start parroting the kid's version of events that "everyone else was talking too but she just picked on me", etc. WTF?? Look, common sense should tell most people that teachers don't deliberately punish the wrong kid. There's no percentage in that, as they say. Or they'll bitch about how some test was "unfair".

I've tried to teach my kids that doesn't matter. If you really have a problem with a teacher, you bring it to me before I hear from the school. And if there is something there, I'll address it. You don't defy or backtalk the teacher in class, you listen to what he/she has to say, and you're quiet when you're supposed to be quiet. And if the test was really unfair to you, then it was unfair to everyone else as well so I don't want to hear it. Let's just see what you got wrong and rework it to get it right. Be so correct that the teacher can't mark you wrong. But honestly, a fair number of parents tend to side with the kids instead of the teachers. My ex does this all the time.

Another example, which also likely falls in the grumpy old guy category. Some kids are just brought up to me more respectful to adults, particularly ones they don't know, than others. The kids who call you "sir" or "Mr. or Mrs.", etc. They hold open doors for people older than themselves, etc. That shit was commonplace when I was younger, and you just don't see it nearly as much now. And it might seem trite, but I think it is symptomatic of a deeper problem, because flat out rudeness seems more common.

My daughter, 15, had a bunch of friends over in the backyard last summer on a Saturday, and they were being really loud and it was after midnight. My neighbor very nicely asked if they could keep it down, and one of the boys - 16 - told him to "fuck off". My neighbor -- being the good guy that he is -- called me and told me because he thought I'd want to know. Well, yeah. So I end up finding out which kid it is, tell him he has to leave, and that he is never allowed back on the property. Didn't curse, or anything.

Next morning I get a call from the kids mother asking why I kicked her son out of my yard and told him to never come back. I was sort of dumbfounded, but told her why. She said I "overreacted", and should let him come back because the kids generally like to hang out at our house, and she didn't want him ostracized. I said the only way he was ever coming back over is if he walked over to my neighbor's house and apologized to his face. She said that wasn't fair because it would be too embarassing, and wouldn't it be enough if she just called to apologise for him.

This post is full of truth though, this "I'm entitled to x"-attitude will ruin us all.

Concerning the fear != respect thing, I think that an environment with a forced amount of good behaviour will benefit the students etc in hallways and so on, but fear can never work half as well as a good relationship in the long run.

[TrueMetis]

This post is full of truth though, this "I'm entitled to x"-attitude will ruin us all.

Considering it will be up to my generation to fix all the shit the generation that came before me fucked up I'm kind of sick of this attitude.