Hitting your kid...

[Tears of Lys]

The underlying cruelty to what they did, or what I did?

As I said upthread, physically, I wasn't hurt at all. The idea that I was ceremoniously placed over my dad's knee and spanked within the hearing of my "friend" was pretty embarassing. It definitely made an impression (mentally) on me since it was unheard of.

If I had a child who did what **I** did, I probably would have my husband (or I) do the same thing. (For some reason, it was worse that he did it. I was my daddy's favorite.) I can't imagine too many kids being so stupid, though.

[Balefont]

I'm not at all sure it benefits the parent, because most parents don't enjoy hitting their child.

It benefits the parents more, imo, because it's quicker and doesn't require more of the parents' time or patience to get the job done.

Why do you assume that a child would prefer multiple, repeated instances of non-corporal punishment to a single instance of corporal punishment? Is the aversion to corporal punishment based on a an objective assessment of its effects on a child, or just on the parents' own squeamishness?

I can't make that assumption but I'd much rather err on the side of caution and that is that the child doesn't want to be spanked rather than non-physical forms of corrections and punishments. The whole point is we're teaching them right from wrong and one of those lessons is "we don't hit people who do something we don't like".

ETA: In the "real world", if you fuck up, you don't get whipped for it. You have privileges taken or money taken. I'm trying to teach my child the consequences of her actions in the real world.

[Balefont]

dp

[IheartTesla]

For all you foreigners, there is some good news. The trend I have observed here in the US (and it might even be true) is that far fewer people who have been physically disciplined as a child do so to their kids, than those who have never been spanked start spanking their kids.

So there is a natural progression towards fewer kids being spanked these days in the US. I would draw analogies with other 'progressive' causes in the US that have seen similar attitude changes, but of course the flip side is someone telling me America is going to hell in a handbasket because we are doling out free hugs in schools.

[Nukelavee]

Mormont - but, you equate spanking as a moral failing. I don't see it as a moral issue at all. Because it isn't a beating, or abuse; it's not done from anger or with pleasure (but if it is.......you likely shouldn't be doing it).

No, it wasn't a strawman, because, contrary to you saying people aren't implying a beating, they are saying it, outright. Plus, they have been equating doing it as being a monster. I wouldn't have put that statement in, if I hadn't been reading it here, over and over.

The strawman being beaten is the one that equates spanking with abuse, across the board. An equivalant would be me saying, well, if you aren't using a physical method, you are using emotional or psychological methods. But, hey, you monsters, how dare you condition and brainwash your child simply to conform to your views? Myself, I would never resort to isolation or deprivation to stifle my child's right to be their own person.

I mean, hey, that's valid...if i were detailing examples of parents who are psychologically abusive, but I hardly think I could make that claim stick to anybody here. Go to the anti-spank crowd, and it's the same thing....sure, when it crosses teh line to abuse, it's a problem, but, really, do you think anybody here is going to smack their kid until it has welts and bruises?

But, if you allow "spanking", where do you draw the line to prevent it being abuse? I dunno, where do you draw the line at grounding or time outs, so people don't spend decades in the closet or basement? Hard to say, but it's likely safe to use common sense and realize either method is open to abuse.

Effectiveness? I can't judge either side as "better", because I have seen successes and failures using both methods. I have 3 cousins raides with the "time out style', and, honestly, they were complete monsters... until they became adults and life taught them some lessons. Sadly, my father can't see past 18 years of brats to see that they've grown up and become good people.

I guess that proves that non-physical methods do, eventually, work. On the other hand...the time required seems to have driven a wedge between member of my family. Trust me, it's not pleasant to explain to Tyler that, no, Uncle Ed doesn't like him because of how he acted as a boy.

An extreme example? A kid I knew when I was 13, who like to hang out at the dam, in spite of repeated grounding for playing there. I can remember his parents discussing it with my parents...y'know, after he drowned there. (I feel guilty I can't even remember his name anymore, just that he thought Madness was the best band ever). Sure, grounding might have taught the lesson, eventually...I imagine his parents wish it had taken fewer repeats than it appears it did.

[Balefont]

But cyr, not spanking our children is SOOOOO UNAMERICAN! You're too squeamish to be an American if you don't spank.

[S John]

we are doling out free hugs in schools.

WHAT!?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The underlying cruelty to what they did, or what I did?

As I said upthread, physically, I wasn't hurt at all. The idea that I was ceremoniously placed over my dad's knee and spanked within the hearing of my "friend" was pretty embarassing. It definitely made an impression (mentally) on me since it was unheard of.

If I had a child who did what **I** did, I probably would have my husband (or I) do the same thing. (For some reason, it was worse that he did it. I was my daddy's favorite.) I can't imagine too many kids being so stupid, though.

I meant what you did. Some things deserve getting your ass beat. Every clear memory I have of getting spanked involves something of which the memory of what I did bothers me more than the memory of the spanking.

[IheartTesla]

You know....whatever it is they do in schools these days that is destroying America.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You know....whatever it is they do in schools these days that is destroying America.

Well, corporal punishment in schools is a lot less common than it used to be.

Heh.

Anyone else ever remember any unpleasant encounters with the "Board" of Education?

[Tears of Lys]

@FLOW, then yes, they did absolutely use it properly.

I continued to be a little monster in numerous other ways, but at least not in THAT particular way.

[Cuellar]

I have to say that using corporal punishment on your kid is difficult. Nobody wants to be that image of the bad parent beating their kid. And I think it is entirely possible that some people can't/shouldn't do it. But it sounds like the one time you got it, it was very effective at conveying a message, and you remember the underlying cruelty to this day. So it sounds to me like your parents used it right.

The problem with corporal punishment is that it usually is done "in the moment" with a lot of emotion. It takes a very very controlled person to meet out physical punishment without emotion, and forcing yourself to calm down before doing so. Most people are incapable of doing that. An easy example is if someone is on their cell phone and runs a red light and clips your car. Is your first reaction emotional? How long will it take you to calm down and act like a rational person with no emotion? By the way, I lump yelling and screaming at your kids in the same category.

When you're dealing with kids, it gets very emotional very fast. It is very hard to control yourself once you go down the path of corporal punishment. It's much easier to cotrol yourself as a parent when you never do it, than a parent who regularly does it. My dad did it to me, and "I turned out fine", while my mom very rarely did it and usually lectured or grounded. I can definitely say that my mother's form of punishment (grounding) was far more effective. Even as a kid I remember thinking I'd rather have a kidney punch than be grounded all day. So basically corporal punishment even when used, was far less effective on me.

Another point is that all parents are different, and all kids are different. Some parents can effectively control themselves and never cross to abuse or punish out of anger, I'd say most can't. Some kids are disciplined more effectively by inflicting pain on them, most do not.

As a parent that has never hit his kids, and probably never will (I'm pretty controlled and can pretty much outlast a screaming toddler, so haven't had to), I really can see that some kids simply aren't capable of learning without some phsyical pain to make them stop doing a behavior. But, I really doubt the average parent who believes in corporal punishment is actually making an evaluation of its effectiveness and would decide against it. Likewise, the biggest problem with corporal punishment that it actually fails to teach a kid the "why" a certain behavior is required, instead simply associates "Do this" with "dad will cause pain", which makes a situation where dad is not around okay to go ahead and do that behavior. There are also a lot of studies showing that some kids who receive corporal punishment end up having negative consequences because of it:

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx

Article even makes my point regarding it being okay sometimes with some kids, but generally it being a negative thing. I'd go so far as saying that corporal punishment is bad to use, unless you are using it in a prescriptive manner on kids where all other forms of punishment fail.

[Lady Luffa]

I meant what you did. Some things deserve getting your ass beat. Every clear memory I have of getting spanked involves something of which the memory of what I did bothers me more than the memory of the spanking.

Now I'm just wondering if I was a super sweet kid or something. As a kid I was never spanked, at least not put over the knee and smacken on my but. I did, however, get slapped on my hands on wrist when I was probably grabbing/going for stuff I shouldn't. The funny thing is I remember the slap but for the life of me I can't remember why I deserved it.

The only time I can remember both my punishment and the reason for my punishment was when I pulled a hat of a boy in the school playground when I was like four years old. My teacher made me take a time out in the class room. I was so mortified, and don't think I ever pulled of a hat of a kid every again ;).

[Lady Luffa]

DP, oops.

[TerraPrime]

Let me just toss this out there for an example. Let's say you have parents who have used corporal punishment. I would agree, for the sake of argument, that it a punishment of greater intensity that most alternatives. it is not unreasonable to assume that a punishment of greater intensity, and the threat that this punishment may be used again, draws clearer lines and is more persuasive in terms of commanding obedience than other methods. As a result, because of the rare but effective use of corporal punishment early on, the need for future disicipline may be significantly lessened. "I'll get my ass beat" if I do that may be a greater deterrent than "I'll have to sit in my room for an hour" if I do that.

You're equating intensity with physical pain inflicted. That's not the end of definition of intensity, surely? Can you think of no ways for a parent to escalate the non-corporal punishment to match the severity of the misbehavior? Or is it that in your mind, only physical pain is capable achieving a result?

I'd rather punish my kids less often and more severely than be punishing them more often. And I felt the same way as a kid. And sometimes, it was the fear of that corporal punishment that led me not to do things I otherwise might have done. Hence, no punishment at all. Of course, this is coming from someone who han't spanked his daughter in at least 7-8 years, and my son for at least 3-4.

That's an odd way of arguing. If it works for you, so then, it must be a good method? How would you know that if your parents had opted to not use the threat of a physical pain as a deterrent and used some other forms of discipline methods instead that you would have done all those things that you had refrained from doing?

In my region, the most common phrase is "my parents would have beaten my ass if I did that". Frankly, I think the color is added mostly for effect.

And in my household, there was no threat of beating after I was 5. My mother promised to not hit me, no matter what, because she said that I was now old enough to be reasoned with and she expected me to behave. I behaved, for the most part, because it would bring shame to my parents for me to act irresponsibly. Several times my friends were about to do stupid things, like planning on throwing eggs on the car of a hated teacher, and I skipped out because I knew how mortified my parents would be to find me behaving like that. When I did misbehave, the punishment was a few stern words of how disappointed they were in me and then be left alone to reflect on it. So I guess we're 1 : 1 in terms of anecdotes about which style of parenting is effective?

Well, there you go. You think making a kid go sit in a room doing nothing for a couple of hours, and doing that with some frequency, is morally superior to the more rare slap on the butt. So, I guess we have those different assumptions.

That's a bait-and-switch. You're talking about intensity and arguing that a concentrated dose of physical pain can be more preferable, so it really is no longer a "swat on the butt" thing like you would for a toddler trying to push his fingers into an electrical socket. Levels of pain that is memorable leave welts. Anything less is just an annoyance. What good is your intensity argument if the child will stop feeling the sting after a couple of minutes?

Re: Nukelavee

An extreme example? A kid I knew when I was 13, who like to hang out at the dam, in spite of repeated grounding for playing there. I can remember his parents discussing it with my parents...y'know, after he drowned there. (I feel guilty I can't even remember his name anymore, just that he thought Madness was the best band ever). Sure, grounding might have taught the lesson, eventually...I imagine his parents wish it had taken fewer repeats than it appears it did.

It's a tragedy for any parents to lose their child to an accident like that.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to use that tragedy to make a point. I'm sure the parents blame themselves for all sorts of reasons for the accident. They should have kept a closer eye on him. They should have taken away his bike (or whatever means he used to get to the dam. They should have done this or not done that. They probably did feel that maybe they needed to discipline him harder. But you know what? It's an accident. The self-blaming notwithstanding, it really doesn't say too much about whether grounding is an effective method or not, the least of which is that we have no idea whether it was used properly in that household.

[Tears of Lys]

Anecdotally:: Another incident in which I was not spanked was when I decided to go into another neighbor's yard and cut a bunch of her flowers and bring them home. (I love flowers!)

No spanking. instead, my mother took me by the hand to the neighbor's door, flowers in hand, to return them to her and apologize. Mortifying!

Definitely worse than spanking. Got the point across succinctly.

Other "incidents" my parents didn't even know about:

1. Repeatedly throwing snowballs at buses, trucks, random cars. Luckily, never causing an accident.

2. Founding member of the "Market Marauders" - Would go rollerskating in a local supermarket, sometimes punching holes in rice bags so it would pour out onto the ground and other juvenile delinquent behaviors on bicycle around the loading dock.

3. Swiping cans of lobster and crab meat. I had champagne tastes even as a child.

Never was caught at any of these dastardly deeds, more's the pity. My poor mother especially, who is impeccably moral, would have a heart attack if she knew!

I don't know whether spanking, lectures, time-outs, or solitary confinement would have cured me of my criminal behavior. Thank the gods old and new that I grew out of it.

[S John]

Oh man, my mom used to make me apologize to people all the time. I have to agree, that was way worse than any physical punishment I ever received. I've had to apologize to a few teachers for various transgressions and once I had to apologize to the gas station clerk for stealing a pack of Juicy Fruit. That was a particularly delicious sin.

[TerraPrime]

I don't know whether spanking, lectures, time-outs, or solitary confinement would have cured me of my criminal behavior. Thank the gods old and new that I grew out of it.

Or... did you? If I check your pantry now, will I find cans of lobster and crab meat, hmmm?

[Reek]

If a child is given a choice between some long lasting non-corporal punishment (grounding for a day or a week) over a quick corporal punishment (2-5 quick spanks) and they choose the spanking, does that change anything?

My sister would often choose spanking over grounding. She just wanted to get the punishment out of the way and move on. On the other hand, my brother was a total wuss and would rather sit on the stairs to the basement or in the guest bathroom (the locations where were were traditionally grounded) for a day or more to avoid spanking.

[alguien]

Yeah, a spanking was a bad punishment, but for me, even worse was having to do chores, apologize to the person wronged (though I always felt better afterward),

or GOD FORBID...

HAVING THEM TAKE A TOY AWAY.

It was sheer agony if I couldn't play with my GI Joes or He-man action figures. :laugh: