Hitting your kid...

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

One way that culture hasn't changed is the older generation still thinks the younger generation is soft and troublesome. That never changes regardless of how much or little corporal punishment is used.

That doesn't make it untrue. The Romans went from being a hardworking nation of tough people, to just wanting their bread and circuses. That didn't happen overnight.

[Ken Stone]

You're right: it's getting better in some regards and worse in others. Overall it's about as crappy as it has been in the past.

But I'd say the lack of progress from the crappy to decent/good, is indicative of bad parenting, now and before.

Our indicative of human nature. Look people are people. Some are really shitty. No amount of parenting can fix that.

I'd generally agree with that. It is difficult to tell if the problem is the wrong/insufficient discipline, or simply no attempt to discipline at all.

Do you have any evidence at all that society is getting worse? Anything? Crime stats? Homicide rates? Anything?

[Prince Alexander]

Our indicative of human nature. Look people are people. Some are really shitty. No amount of parenting can fix that.

Yeah, I could probably dig that argument, even more cynical :)

But logically, assuming parenting got better due to parents beating their kids less, wouldn't there be more non-shitty people and less shitty people? Then, of course, we'd need to get into the subjective territory of whether 2011 when all kinds of psychos (official and terrorist) are blowing up things all over the world is better or worse than 1811 when there is slavery and wars all over the world.

So I'd say fundamentally we're looking at the optimistic world view (parenting getting a little better, world getting a little better) vs the pessimistic world view (parenting is the same crap or worse, world is the same crap or worse). The difference being viability of spanking as parenting technique, of course.

[TrueMetis]

No, it was when kids were much better behaved in school, more respectful to adults in general, etc.. As to adults, I wouldn't say. But I think it is definitely true with respect to kids.

You know this was probably around the same time when 90% of kids couldn't got to school and respect meant shutting the fuck up. How much respect does the teacher who used corporal punishment actually get? Or is it just thinly veiled hatred.

[TerraPrime]

You know this was probably around the same time when 90% of kids couldn't got to school and respect meant shutting the fuck up. How much respect does the teacher who used corporal punishment actually get? Or is it just thinly veiled hatred.

Also, fear != respect.

[peterbound]

You know this was probably around the same time when 90% of kids couldn't got to school and respect meant shutting the fuck up. How much respect does the teacher who used corporal punishment actually get? Or is it just thinly veiled hatred.

Who gives a fuck, it worked.

[TrueMetis]

Who gives a fuck, it worked.

Considering that it's people from that generation that fucked up the economy did it really?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Also, fear != respect.

But it may mean at least behaving like you have respect. Which, if we're talking about an educational environment, is rather important.

I'll try to give an example that seems to crop up a lot. At least, based on some parents I've talked to.

Kids sometimes get in trouble in school, get bad grades, etc. I was taught that excuses don't matter. If you get in trouble in school, than 90% of the time, you were going to get in worse trouble at home. Teachers were given the benefit of the doubt and backed up by parents. I don't think that happens nearly as much anymore. It sometimes stuns me how many parents seem to object if their kid is disciplined for talking too much in class. They'll start parroting the kid's version of events that "everyone else was talking too but she just picked on me", etc. WTF?? Look, common sense should tell most people that teachers don't deliberately punish the wrong kid. There's no percentage in that, as they say. Or they'll bitch about how some test was "unfair".

I've tried to teach my kids that doesn't matter. If you really have a problem with a teacher, you bring it to me before I hear from the school. And if there is something there, I'll address it. You don't defy or backtalk the teacher in class, you listen to what he/she has to say, and you're quiet when you're supposed to be quiet. And if the test was really unfair to you, then it was unfair to everyone else as well so I don't want to hear it. Let's just see what you got wrong and rework it to get it right. Be so correct that the teacher can't mark you wrong. But honestly, a fair number of parents tend to side with the kids instead of the teachers. My ex does this all the time.

Another example, which also likely falls in the grumpy old guy category. Some kids are just brought up to me more respectful to adults, particularly ones they don't know, than others. The kids who call you "sir" or "Mr. or Mrs.", etc. They hold open doors for people older than themselves, etc. That shit was commonplace when I was younger, and you just don't see it nearly as much now. And it might seem trite, but I think it is symptomatic of a deeper problem, because flat out rudeness seems more common.

My daughter, 15, had a bunch of friends over in the backyard last summer on a Saturday, and they were being really loud and it was after midnight. My neighbor very nicely asked if they could keep it down, and one of the boys - 16 - told him to "fuck off". My neighbor -- being the good guy that he is -- called me and told me because he thought I'd want to know. Well, yeah. So I end up finding out which kid it is, tell him he has to leave, and that he is never allowed back on the property. Didn't curse, or anything.

Next morning I get a call from the kids mother asking why I kicked her son out of my yard and told him to never come back. I was sort of dumbfounded, but told her why. She said I "overreacted", and should let him come back because the kids generally like to hang out at our house, and she didn't want him ostracized. I said the only way he was ever coming back over is if he walked over to my neighbor's house and apologized to his face. She said that wasn't fair because it would be too embarassing, and wouldn't it be enough if she just called to apologise for him.

Clearly, she didn't get enough ass beatings herself as a kid.

[TerraPrime]

Next morning I get a call from the kids mother asking why I kicked her son out of my yard and told him to never come back. I was sort of dumbfounded, but told her why. She said I "overreacted", and should let him come back because the kids generally like to hang out at our house, and she didn't want him ostracized. I said the only way he was ever coming back over is if he walked over to my neighbor's house and apologized to his face. She said that wasn't fair because it would be too embarassing, and wouldn't it be enough if she just called to apologise for him.

And that is why her son turns out the way he did. In fact, I would have felt a bit guilty to be so harsh on the kid, given the kind of crap parent that he has to work with.

Also, I would have tried to reach through the phone and strangle this woman. I would have failed, but I would have tried.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And that is why her son turns out the way he did. In fact, I would have felt a bit guilty to be so harsh on the kid, given the kind of crap parent that he has to work with.

Also, I would have tried to reach through the phone and strangle this woman. I would have failed, but I would have tried.

The stuff I wanted to say....

I'll just say that raising kids to behave properly is extraordinarily difficult. I think it's tougher today because kids are so much more interconnected due to electronic communications. Parents and family play a smaller role in their lives than they used to, and therefore have less real opportunity to acclimate those kids to adult societal norms. But I suppose the breakdown in school environments probably preceded that, so there certainly are other causes as well.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Considering that it's people from that generation that fucked up the economy did it really?

$%@#* Hippies. (But you should hear them talk about THEIR parents' generation. Never a cheaper bunch existed to hear it told. And you can go back, and back and back. That's ok, you can keep tracing back through time ("Kids these days, in my day, we didn't have washing machines or vacuums and had to haul water from the well and chop our own wood - built character. . . " "Kids these days, in my day they'd sit you down in grammar school and say 'look to the left, look to the right, and by the end of the year two of you will be dead of plague'". . . ."Kids these days, in my day we didn't have school, this newfangled learning is corrupting our youth. Next thing you know they might want to leave the Church. . . .", etc. etc. etc.)

I've tried to teach my kids that doesn't matter. If you really have a problem with a teacher, you bring it to me before I hear from the school. And if there is something there, I'll address it. You don't defy or backtalk the teacher in class, you listen to what he/she has to say, and you're quiet when you're supposed to be quiet. And if the test was really unfair to you, then it was unfair to everyone else as well so I don't want to hear it. Let's just see what you got wrong and rework it to get it right. Be so correct that the teacher can't mark you wrong. But honestly, a fair number of parents tend to side with the kids instead of the teachers. My ex does this all the time.

Another example, which also likely falls in the grumpy old guy category. Some kids are just brought up to me more respectful to adults, particularly ones they don't know, than others. The kids who call you "sir" or "Mr. or Mrs.", etc. They hold open doors for people older than themselves, etc. That shit was commonplace when I was younger, and you just don't see it nearly as much now. And it might seem trite, but I think it is symptomatic of a deeper problem, because flat out rudeness seems more common.

Next morning I get a call from the kids mother asking why I kicked her son out of my yard and told him to never come back. I was sort of dumbfounded, but told her why. She said I "overreacted", and should let him come back because the kids generally like to hang out at our house, and she didn't want him ostracized. I said the only way he was ever coming back over is if he walked over to my neighbor's house and apologized to his face. She said that wasn't fair because it would be too embarassing, and wouldn't it be enough if she just called to apologise for him.

[snipped]

1. I agree that parents should teach children to solve their own problems and be accountable for their own actions. I know my mother (a teacher) struggles with this - parents trying to protect little darlin' from the consequences of his/her actions. You don't need to spank to show that actions have consequences though. As I said, my mother only did it twice in my childhood. We had lots of things taken away though. Actions had CONSEQUENCES, and consequences we cared about.

2. I think what is polite is regional to some extent. I was brought up to use first names a lot of the time, but often with "Aunt" or "Miss"/"Mr." + first name (for neighbors - so my neighbor accross the street, and mother of a friend was Miss Pat, another mother's friend was Miss Bobbie, but the woman at the end of the road was "Auntie Carm"). I was also taught to use whatever name the other person used in introducing him/herself. I was taught to introduce myself nicely too - first name/last name and shake hands, and then listen to what they say and always say "It's very nice to meet you [insert name they introduced self with]. I don't know, maybe you would find that rude? We weren't into a lot of sir-ing and ma'am-ing, but a lot of please and thank you. Kids still do "please and thank you" and I don't want to be called Mrs. anything. That's my mother. Or worse, my step-mother-in-law.

3. Your rules, your house. I'm with you - the kid was unconsciably rude. It's not the word itself so much as how it was said and to whom. I'd be angry. You have to continue to live next door to your neighbor. The kid should apologize.

[Sixshells]

Just wanted to point out that the idea that children were more well-behaved before borders on the urban legend. Remember who is telling you it was the case: those who were children at that time. You can't find a more unreliable source than someone looking at that time through the pink haze of nostalgia.

Truth is, children in themselves are uncivilised little beasts in whatever period of the human history you look at. For as long as children will not be squirted out of the womb already fully educated and ready to be functional and decent citizens, people will think that their children are unbearable. At the same time, they will also believe they themselves were better than their own children, because they are unable to connect their own experience as children with their children's. In this disconnection, we only see our children like our parents saw ourselves: frustrating, difficult to communicate with, ignorant of social conventions, you name it; hell, even a child's brain works differently, witch is problematic when dealing with infants, since it makes identifying with them and communicating them your values all the more difficult.

As for respect in school, it is less dependant on the respect a given society gives to those entrusted with teaching children than the way discipline was actually enforced. Even when only 10% of children can go to a school, they will not behave well if they think they can get away with it because their (obviously rich and powerful) parents do not respect educational institutions and teachers. Parents teach their values to their children. Especially when they think they are not *teaching* them.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Just wanted to point out that the idea that children were more well-behaved before borders on the urban legend. Remember who is telling you it was the case: those who were children at that time. You can't find a more unreliable source than someone looking at that time through the pink haze of nostalgia.

So your point is that the alleged regression in behavior is illusory?

As for respect in school, it is less dependant on the respect a given society gives to those entrusted with teaching children than the way discipline was actually enforced. Even when only 10% of children can go to a school, they will not behave well if they think they can get away with it because their (obviously rich and powerful) parents do not respect educational institutions and teachers.

Are you saying that behavior in school really is worse, or is that just an illusion too?

[mouse]

I am not caught up on this thread - I am several pages behind. However, my daughter just did something that may just change my whole opinion on time outs.

She just said, eagerly, "[Her name] time out?" and put herself into time out, just for fun.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I am not caught up on this thread - I am several pages behind. However, my daughter just did something that may just change my whole opinion on time outs.

She just said, eagerly, "[Her name] time out?" and put herself into time out, just for fun.

Heh. Heh. heh.

Here's something that hasn't come up. What happens if you try to give a kid a punishment such as a time-out, and they just refuse to go to their room?

What do you do? Just kind of curious.

On a different note, one day, I figured out I'd try the old "command voice" on my daughter when she was getting out of line. The full-throated, deep, from the bottom of the diaphram loud voice we used in the Marines to give orders when marching, or to be heard over gunfire, etc..

I have to say that it absolutely terrified her. She ran to her room, and then after that, if she was ever about to get in trouble for something, she'd say "please don't use the loud voice daddy."

I'm not sure how that plays out in this whole discussion. It wasn't physical, but damn, it was really effective. On the other hand, it also really scared the shit out of her, so I'm not sure it was "better" in any moral sense than a slap on the butt. I literally did it only twice, and after that, me just saying "do you want me to use the loud voice" was enough to get her to stop what she was doing or to fell some instant remorse for what she's done. But honestly, though, I really didn't like the feeling of doing that.

[Balefont]

Heh. Heh. heh.

Here's something that hasn't come up. What happens if you try to give a kid a punishment such as a time-out, and they just refuse to go to their room?

What do you do? Just kind of curious.

Tell them if they don't do as they are told, you'll take away [insert privilege here]. And be sure to follow through.

On a different note, one day, I figured out I'd try the old "command voice" on my daughter when she was getting out of line. The full-throated, deep, from the bottom of the diaphram loud voice we used in the Marines to give orders when marching, or to be heard over gunfire, etc..

I have to say that it absolutely terrified her. She ran to her room, and then after that, if she was ever about to get in trouble for something, she'd say "please don't use the loud voice daddy."

I'm not sure how that plays out in this whole discussion. It wasn't physical, but damn, it was really effective. On the other hand, it also really scared the shit out of her, so I'm not sure it was "better" in any moral sense than a slap on the butt. I literally did it only twice, and after that, me just saying "do you want me to use the loud voice" was enough to get her to stop what she was doing or to fell some instant remorse for what she's done. But honestly, though, I really didn't like the feeling of doing that.

I can see how that could be scarey to her and it could probably fall under my definition of crossing a line. But probably not. There's a difference between yelling at and screaming at a kid and raising your voice issuing a firm command.

Unfortunately, raising your voice to my daughter makes her fall apart and completely overshoots the mark for her (as in, the opportunity to impart a right/wrong lesson is impossible as she is reduced to sniveling shaking mess). It took my husband almost 14 years to finally get that point in his thick skull. ;)

[Sixshells]

So your point is that the alleged regression in behavior is illusory?

My point is that the alleged regression is illusory, yes. Children have always misbehaved and always will, it's a basic consequence of their immaturity. What changes and may convey the impression that a generation is worse than the previous is that in time the ways in which children misbehave evolves with the evolution of social standards, structure, the available technologies an so on.

Are you saying that behavior in school really is worse, or is that just an illusion too?

First see my point about the alleged regression in child behaviour in general. Another huge factor in behaviour at school however is the importance and respect a given society has for school and teachers. And that is not time-sensitive in itself, but depends on the evolution of said society. In my opinion, although it's not the only factor, when education and school are actually viewed as important, it helps obtaining a better behaviour in school. So it may as regress as well as getting better.

The point may be extended to other forms of authority, to an extent.

[mouse]

Here's something that hasn't come up. What happens if you try to give a kid a punishment such as a time-out, and they just refuse to go to their room?

What do you do? Just kind of curious.

I, for one, take my lessons in child-rearing from reality tv. We do time-outs Supernanny style. There is no "go to your room." There is a naughty step, and she must sit on the step for the time out. If she gets up, we pick her up and put her back. Repeat as necessary. If she stands up and sits back down, the time out starts over.

[Tears of Lys]

I think this thread has ended quite well, actually. :thumbsup:

[Balefont]

Super Nanny FTW!