‘I’m not African-American,’ some blacks insist

[Nukelavee]

Hey, FLoW, you gots the wrong person for that quote.......

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Hey, FLoW, you gots the wrong person for that quote.......

Very sorry -- I don't know how that happened, but I fixed it now.

[Verboten]

The Israeli equivelant of "Some of my best friends are black" is "I have Arab friends" (we have lower standards for the get out of racism debate free card here.) At a workshop I was running a while ago, a guy exclaimed, with considerable passion and not a trace of irony that I could detect, that this race/culture/religeon thing people are bringing up is way overblown, or something to that effect, as "I have friends who have Arab friends."

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I'm curious. I know some Mizrahi Jews who identify as Arabic, would that be the same in Israel, or is Arab often equated with Muslim in Israel? I know that's the case here.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I have a more basic question. Why do people feel the need to identify themselves as something that separates them from the rest?

[TerraPrime]

Re: fitheach

So what if the person who mentions their black friends, is also a minority?

I am really not seeing why you think anyone of us would have a problem with that? You're taking the objection to one very specific context of mentioning the ethnicity of one's friends and generalizing it to almost every instance that this feature is mentioned. That was never the intent.

Re: Nukelavee and fitheach

But it's pretty common to have anything I say get dismissed (at least on sites like this) because, y'know, I'm white and can't know anything about it, unless a minority tells me, and more back him or her up.

And if I did that, you (or others) would say- "What does this poster know about this issue?! Why would you say, and what do you know, about some people preferring to be called one thing over another?"

I don't feel that I need to justify my opinion on race issues by merit of having black/Latino/native American/Asian friends. I don't know why you'd feel that you do. Offer your arguments and opinions, and make sure that they are backed up by some facts and sound reasoning, and if someone dismisses them without engaging the argument, then they're not really worth talking to, are they?

There are some issues where it is hard to discuss with someone if they just don't get it, and they don't get it, because they've never experienced it. I can empathize, for instance, the driving-while-back problem that many people in the U.S. face, but I've never been randomly stopped because of my skin color, repeatedly. I've never had police wanting to question me out of the blue just because I'm hanging around outside. In those context, I think it'd be legitimate to say that "I've never experienced it, but some of my friends have, and they told me that X, Y, Z."

I'm not giving statistics, only personal information. But obviously that's not acceptable.

You're still confounding the two issues. Mentioning that you have friends who are ethnic minority is not unacceptable. What I find unacceptable is to say that my argument on X is more valid because I have black/Latino/Asian friend who agrees with me. I may or may not have these friends, and they may or may not agree with me, but that has nothing to do with the validity of the argument. If I think "African American" is a terrible label, then I should explain why. Letting others know that I have a black friend who agrees with me is not an argument, nor is it a piece of evidence for anything. It adds little of value to the discussion. This is particularly true when the OP that started this thread showed significant percentage of people who fall into both sides of the argument.

Re: SI Monster

In my opinion, the term African-American is incorrect because it's inaccurate. Africa is a continent and not a singular country with multiple ethnic groups living in each country that vary not only by skin tone but by geological region. Me personally, I'm six generations removed from slavery, but x-amount a generations away from my last African born ancestor. The question I pose to people that don't agree with me referring to myself as an American who is Black is, at what point will we be Americans? Hell, if you ask most African born immigrants or even visitors to this country, they often refer to themselves by what specific country in Africa they are from (Ghana, Angoloa, Morocco). But I have noticed that when you speak to a Zulu from South Africa, they don't call themselves South Africans, they call themselves Zulu.

Did you read all the posts in this thread? These points have already been addressed, both by me and by the article that Ormond linked to. Do you have specific objections to these counter-arguments? Or do you just want to re-state some positions?

So again, at what point will we be Americans?

When I describe someone as African-American, I don't think that they are not American. It means someone who's an American, and whose life experience as someone with dark skin color is affected by the way race relations have evolved in this country. I don't see why adding the adjective in front of "American" means that someone is not an American, no more than a "beautiful woman" is not a "woman," or an "Italian film star" is not a "film star."

To close, here's some homework: When's the last time you met an American of any race, creed, color, him or hum, that called themsevles just an American?

It depends on the context. Many people will describe themselves as Americans in one context, and then use the hyphenated descriptions in other contexts.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It depends on the context. Many people will describe themselves as Americans in one context, and then use the hyphenated descriptions in other contexts.

It also depends on personal taste/preference. If some folks prefer it one way, and others prefer it differently, it shouldn't be a problem. Where it becomes a problem is when some people think others should be obligated to use the term that person prefers.

[Lightning Lord]

I have a more basic question. Why do people feel the need to identify themselves as something that separates them from the rest?

Some people like to have their own identity, their individuality. Ethnic/racial/national background is part of that identity for a lot of people. Some people have a great deal of pride in their background, in their ancestry. A 1.5 generation Mexican-American could have very strong ties to family still living in Mexico and a love of their cultural traditions and want to keep those alive. Throwing them aside just because they live in the US and are American would be an insult to that heritage.

SSW: I don't know what the time limit was on the av/title change. I was on vacation for awhile and didn't really think about it. Plus, for the first time in my life, I am being adored for my body instead of my mind :)

[Robin Of House Hill]

Some people like to have their own identity, their individuality. Ethnic/racial/national background is part of that identity for a lot of people. Some people have a great deal of pride in their background, in their ancestry. A 1.5 generation Mexican-American could have very strong ties to family still living in Mexico and a love of their cultural traditions and want to keep those alive. Throwing them aside just because they live in the US and are American would be an insult to that heritage.

Heritage? That's what you call it when people want to claim credit for things they, themselves, did not do, isn't it? "I may just be a gang banger, but I'm proud because of Cinco de Mayo...whatever that was". Defining oneself by what was done by others, shows an appalling lack of self-worth.

[Lightning Lord]

Heritage? That's what you call it when people want to claim credit for things they, themselves, did not do, isn't it? "I may just be a gang banger, but I'm proud because of Cinco de Mayo...whatever that was". Defining oneself by what was done by others, shows an appalling lack of self-worth.

How about, instead of your incredibly insulting example, "I'm a responsible citizen with loving parents from Mexico, where they placed great import on Cinqo de Mayo and I would like to continue that kind of personal/cultural tradition"? Or, "Hey, my parents are Buddhist, so I enjoy celebrating Lunar New Year"? Or "My Korean parents had a large party for my first birthday, it was a great event of coming together, I want to do the same for my child"?

How can you possibly think taking pride in one's cultural rites is "an appalling lack of self-worth"?

ETA: I just got it! This is America: Land of the Adopt Our Culture Because Yours is Wrong, You Future Criminal!

[Robin Of House Hill]

How about, instead of your incredibly insulting example, "I'm a responsible citizen with loving parents from Mexico, where they placed great import on Cinqo de Mayo and I would like to continue that kind of personal/cultural tradition"? Or, "Hey, my parents are Buddhist, so I enjoy celebrating Lunar New Year"? Or "My Korean parents had a large party for my first birthday, it was a great event of coming together, I want to do the same for my child"?

How can you possibly think taking pride in one's cultural rites is "an appalling lack of self-worth"?

ETA: I just got it! This is America: Land of the Adopt Our Culture Because Yours is Wrong, You Future Criminal!

Sorry you found the example insulting. I'll try for the sweetness and light approach, next time. For some reason, I cannot fathom, people keep stressing their differences, not their similarities. Taking pride in what those in the past have accomplished, rather than what you've accomplished, points to a lack of self-worth, whether you like it or not. As far as your "This is America" bit, what do people who come here, but maintain the culture they left, tell you? We came for the economic benefit, but want nothing else from this place.

My ancestors came from three countries. One, had only one personage who was universally known, but only because of an author who got all his facts wrong. The second had a history that produced no one anyone remembers. The third, had lots of heroic people who did lots of heroic things, yet failed to achieve their goal. Now you know why I put no stock in heritage or cultural rites.

[Lightning Lord]

Your post just makes me feel sorry for you. It must be a very dull, lifeless world you envision - one where everyone thinks and acts the same, no one tries to be different.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

Yeah yeah, pride in what your ancestors have done is crazy, you didn't do it, it's not your accomplishment whatever. But honestly, how awesome is the variety of traditions that exist in the US because of immigrants attachment to their heritage? And besides that, it's not so much about "pride" as "identity".

[Robin Of House Hill]

Yeah yeah, pride in what your ancestors have done is crazy, you didn't do it, it's not your accomplishment whatever. But honestly, how awesome is the variety of traditions that exist in the US because of immigrants attachment to their heritage? And besides that, it's not so much about "pride" as "identity".

What happens when the traditions clash?

Your post just makes me feel sorry for you. It must be a very dull, lifeless world you envision - one where everyone thinks and acts the same, no one tries to be different.

Don't. My vision is less conflict, not dullness. People should be themselves, not someone who lived long ago.

I seem to have hijacked the thread due to my reaction to Hyphenated-Americans, Sorry.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

No clash of traditions could ever be as bad as losing curries, tacos, pizzas, and god this list could go on forever.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I never begrudge anyone their food.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

Food is an integral part of heritage. like dances, clothing, flags, holidays, religion etc. what part of your cultural traditions do you keep? what do you lose? Plenty of racial slurs come from food, so clearly that is one of the differences that cause clashes. The thing is that people who bring their culture are not the problem. The problem is people who fear change.

[Lightning Lord]

Don't. My vision is less conflict, not dullness. People should be themselves, not someone who lived long ago.

Um, sorry, but that's impossible. You were born and raised...somewhere, by...someone. Those places and people placed their mark on you, whether you like it or not. You can try very hard to divorce yourself from your background, but then you're actively trying to not be yourself.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Food is an integral part of heritage. like dances, clothing, flags, holidays, religion etc. what part of your cultural traditions do you keep? what do you lose? Plenty of racial slurs come from food, so clearly that is one of the differences that cause clashes. The thing is that people who bring their culture are not the problem. The problem is people who fear change.

Change that unites us, may be good. Change that divides us, is usually bad.

Um, sorry, but that's impossible. You were born and raised...somewhere, by...someone. Those places and people placed their mark on you, whether you like it or not. You can try very hard to divorce yourself from your background, but then you're actively trying to not be yourself.

My parents were 2nd generation Americans. The ties to the "old country" were pretty much gone.

I think we've about beaten this to death. Can we agree to disagree?

[TerraPrime]

Taking pride in what those in the past have accomplished, rather than what you've accomplished, points to a lack of self-worth, whether you like it or not.

You mean taking pride in past accomplishments like celebrating 4th of July? For some reason, do you feel the same sense of condescension every 4th of July, as you would for Cinqo dy Mayo? How about St. Patrick's Day? Martin Luther King day?

Now you know why I put no stock in heritage or cultural rites.

You can do what you want, but it seems to me that you're arguing that heritage shouldn't mean anything to other people, either, and that's not really something you can control.

[Jaqen Jay-Z]

The major problem with perceiving the retaining of one's cultural ties as a negative act is that the flipside is complete assimilation and erasure of identity. With so many examples of forced assimilation in the short history of the USA, I'm really really uncomfortable with that line of thinking.

Ethnic and cultural "harmony" has been the cover for aggressive policies of assimilation in the past. I don't buy it.